Hyouka - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But more seriously, where/when did Irisu shake Oreki's hand? If it was in this episode, I can't find it. And I've looked this episode over repeatedly simply for the purposes of the ongoing Irisu discussion.

My apologies, it was in the preceding episode. However, I think it necessary for your discussion of Irisu here to include everything from Ep. 08, so I don't think it was strictly OT.

Anyway, any other frequent visitors or present or former residents are invited to chime in. Personally, as an obvious Gaijin, I found that people shook my hand to show that they knew it was a custom in MY culture, but not theirs. And I can't recall that a woman ever extended her hand for me to shake. These were all grownups, mind you. I can't imagine a Japanese high school girl doing that with a local high school boy.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Personally, as an obvious Gaijin, I found that people shook my hand to show that they knew it was a custom in MY culture, but not theirs. And I can't recall that a woman ever extended her hand for me to shake. These were all grownups, mind you. I can't imagine a Japanese high school girl doing that with a local high school boy.

I think you're right. Here's my theory: I think she's giving him a bit of "service" as a reward.

Part of Houtarou's motivation wasn't just to prove himself as a capable detective, but also because an attractive girl asked him to do it. He wanted to impress her. (That he was doing it partly for her sake was mentioned a number of times in the episodes.) So as she's praising him after he "figured out the mystery" and saying how great he is for living up to her expectations, I think she wants to give a bit of "skinship" to put him right on cloud nine. Because it's so culturally unusual, it leaves that much more of an impact, and a handshake is still known as a business gesture, so it's a way of further reinforcing that she takes him seriously. And it definitely got his tail wagging -- as he said, "Home Run". By doing this, not only does he feel appreciated, but he'd also be more likely to help her out in the future.

Of course, what she wasn't counting on is his friends in the club, who brought him back down to earth. (Perhaps that was her real miscalculation? She was always focused only on him, and the rest were just along for the ride.) And, of course, she wasn't counting on him being smart enough to solve the real mystery that he had been blind to before -- the one that Eru had been focused on all along. In the end, Houtarou is a good detective, but he needs the support of others he can trust to keep his focus where it should be. In other words: "Only Human."

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Part of Houtarou's motivation wasn't just to prove himself as a capable detective, but also because an attractive girl asked him to do it. He wanted to impress her.

Bingo, I'm leaning towards the same view myself, pending input from others. But this isn't just any pretty girl, this was a senpai. In that system, the crap flows downwards. To get this treatment... I think a little bit of manly pride may have taken a hit here. It's not his detective skillz that he was feeling sore about.

Edit: What does this say about Irisu though? This isn't even cosmopolitan Tokyo. It's some small town in the sticks. For a young girl to have the sophistication and aplomb to pull off this maneuver is extraordinary, I find.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Edit: What does this say about Irisu though? This isn't even cosmopolitan Tokyo. It's some small town in the sticks. For a young girl to have the sophistication and aplomb to pull off this maneuver is extraordinary, I find.

Well, her family is one of the rich, influential families in the area (they run the hospital, IIRC?), so she's probably more "world-wise" than many of her peers, particularly in the ways of business. (That could be where she got some of her "bad habits" (?) from.) Indeed, though, it's probably something only she would think to do, which will make it stand out that much more to a "nobody" like Houtarou.

Originally Posted by joeboygo

To get this treatment... I think a little bit of manly pride may have taken a hit here. It's not his detective skillz that he was feeling sore about.

Yeah, I think you're probably right. I'm honestly not sure what part of the whole thing is ultimately more painful, but his pride as a man will probably take the longest to heal. It's a good thing he has friends.

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Indeed, though, it's probably something only she would think to do, which will make it stand out that much more to a "nobody" like Houtarou.

Let me push the theory a bit further and tell me what you think:

This girl is good. Good enough to know, at such an early age, how to use her womanly wiles to wrap a boy around her finger.

With this additional element in the mix, how would this affect how you view Irisu?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Let me push the theory a bit further and tell me what you think:

This girl is good. Good enough to know, at such an early age, how to use her womanly wiles to wrap a boy around her finger.

With this additional element in the mix, how would this affect how you view Irisu?

I'm actually curious if anyone ever really doubted that, to be honest. Regardless of the whole past conversation about whether she's more cold or caring (and to what degree), she was trouble right from the start. Again, see Satoshi's introduction of "The Empress" in Episode 8, which alluded to both her looks and her ability to play everyone to her advantage. At the time, Houtarou brushes it off, but of course, that was foreshadowing of exactly what was to come. (In so many ways, pride cometh before a fall.)

That said, they're pretty subtle on the "womanly wiles" part. I do think Irisu knows she's beautiful, and that she no doubt gets ample attention from boys... but, in a way, I would almost say that Eru uses her "womanly wiles" to her advantage a lot more (particularly with Houtarou), but the difference is that she's clueless.

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

but, in a way, I would almost say that Eru uses her "womanly wiles" to her advantage a lot more (particularly with Houtarou), but the difference is that she's clueless.

Speaking as a guy now, for me, it's one thing to be lied to (and Irisu did lie too), but to be led on by a girl, (as in to make you think she finds you attractive when that's not the case) man, THAT IS COLD.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Let me push the theory a bit further and tell me what you think:

This girl is good. Good enough to know, at such an early age, how to use her womanly wiles to wrap a boy around her finger.

With this additional element in the mix, how would this affect how you view Irisu?

She's . . . what? Sixteen? Seventeen? Wrapping teen boys around their little fingers seems to be among the first skills a teen girl acquires when she hits puberty. Mind you, teen boys often make it way too easy. What sets Irisu apart, in this case, is she didn't have to flaunt it to bend Houtarou to her will. Only she didn't really have to, since Houtarou was clearly quite smitten by her (well, as far as Houtarou Oreki seems to get smitten by anyone) from the get-go, so all it really took were a couple of smiles and some butter.

[Gohan78]

I think that the real culprit in all of this matter is Hongou herself. The whole problem originated from the fact that she stubbornly refused to listen to her classmates and went along with her murderless mistery.

Irisu tried to control the damage as much as she can, probably because she felt responsible as the club president. It is also true that Irisu herself didn't like Hongou's script so she caught two birds with one stone. But is this really wrong? In the end Irisu, with Houtaro's help, managed to make a movie that satisfied 99% of her clubmates.
Yes, she used some dubious methods to achieve that result but in the end nobody was hurt, save for Houtaro's pride. She doesn't deserve all this hate.

[Skane]

Hate is such a strong word. I don't think most people "hate" her. At least I know I don't, and reading the discussion over the past few pages, I get the feeling that those who oppose her methods don't hate her either.

What we do however, is disagree with her way of thinking. Hate implies that we would want to hang her over a pit of burning pitch and flog her senseless. That's hate. You don't need to hate something to disagree with it.

If I hate a person, I would probably cheer when he/she gets mowed by a bus. I don't feel that way about Irisu.

Cheers.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I think that the real culprit in all of this matter is Hongou herself. The whole problem originated from the fact that she stubbornly refused to listen to her classmates and went along with her murderless mistery.

That's the root problem, yes. Hongou has really gotten off easy in all of this, in my opinion.

Irisu tried to control the damage as much as she can, probably because she felt responsible as the club president. It is also true that Irisu herself didn't like Hongou's script so she caught two birds with one stone. But is this really wrong? In the end Irisu, with Houtaro's help, managed to make a movie that satisfied 99% of her clubmates.
Yes, she used some dubious methods to achieve that result but in the end nobody was hurt, save for Houtaro's pride. She doesn't deserve all this hate.

Yeah, I very strongly agree.

In a medium that has given us the likes of Lelouch Lamperouge, Kyubey, and Raito Yagami, I'm kind of amazed at the level of hate Irisu has caught.

Heck, even as a huge Haruhi Suzumiya fan, I'll admit that she does things on a regular basis that's worse than anything Irisu has been shown doing in this anime.

Originally Posted by Skane

Hate is such a strong word. I don't think most people "hate" her. At least I know I don't, and reading the discussion over the past few pages, I get the feeling that those who oppose her methods don't hate her either.

To basically argue that someone is downright incapable of feeling guilt over hurting someone is pretty much dehumanizing them and hating them, imo.

...Unless the person writing that thinks that's "Cool" (in a "I'm with Kyubey!" sort of way), which generally isn't the case here.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To basically argue that someone is downright incapable of feeling guilt over hurting someone is pretty much dehumanizing them and hating them, imo.

To be clear from my part, that was never what I was arguing. I don't think she's "incapable" of feeling guilt, but I don't see evidence to prove that it's there in the show (yet). I don't hate Irisu by any means, but I agree with the assessment by A~ta~shi that her motives for doing this were not really (or at least, not "predominantly") "to save Hongou".

As for Hongou's guilt... in the end, I don't think the entire situation was handled properly at all. Why was her own vote for no deaths disqualified? Why was she chosen as the writer even though she didn't want to write the sort of story the class wanted? Was she really given an opportunity to refuse (I get the impression she was "voluntold")? When her story wasn't the way Irisu and others in the class wanted, why wasn't she consulted about it? Why wasn't she given a chance to advocate for her own story? In the end, the whole thing reeks. They never really worked as a team at all. You could argue that this all stems from the fact that the decision was made when Irisu wasn't around, so she hadn't been leading the project from the get-go... but in general terms, I would call this a leadership/management problem (yes, I know it's a school, though). It's amazing they got anything decent produced at all (but we see what it took).

[Hyper]

Hmm..
I agree with Skane that "hate" is too strong a word to use for Irisu. If you insist on my reaction to Irisu character as the definition of "hate", then I'll have to "hate" a lot of characters. That includes every one Triple_R mentioned (as far as I know. Didn't watch some of those shows), and yes I "hate" Haruhi, even if she is one of my favorite character. Wasn't there a long debate when the show was airing that Haruhi was designed to be hated, at least until somewhere around "Live Alive?" Well, let's not get into that.

I like the characters, but I disapprove what she did. If this is real live, I'd personally avoid dealing with people like her. I hold honesty in high regard, and what she did here basically destroy her credit, regardless of her real intention (rejecting the script or helping Hougou.) That's why I said earlier that there will be no loyalty in her leadership. People will eventually find out and get sick of being used. The way to deal with this is sit down, tell Houtarou what happen, and ask him to help. It is very likely that he will refuse, so use Eru to persuade him. That's still a manipulation, but it's a fair game. For me, lying is not an option.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Speaking as a guy now, for me, it's one thing to be lied to (and Irisu did lie too), but to be led on by a girl, (as in to make you think she finds you attractive when that's not the case) man, THAT IS COLD.

She'd need to do a lot more than shake his hand to qualify for that.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I think that the real culprit in all of this matter is Hongou herself. The whole problem originated from the fact that she stubbornly refused to listen to her classmates and went along with her murderless mistery.

Irisu tried to control the damage as much as she can, probably because she felt responsible as the club president. It is also true that Irisu herself didn't like Hongou's script so she caught two birds with one stone. But is this really wrong? In the end Irisu, with Houtaro's help, managed to make a movie that satisfied 99% of her clubmates.
Yes, she used some dubious methods to achieve that result but in the end nobody was hurt, save for Houtaro's pride. She doesn't deserve all this hate.

The problem isn't really that Hongou refused to write a murder, especially considering how she was pushed into it. It's that she refused to tell anyone till the last minute. There may be some justification for not telling the actors. There was none for not telling the director, who would have told the prop guy to tone it down.

Again, one can say that Irisu's ways of conflict avoidance are cowardly and suboptimal. But it's not like Hongou's any better. The difference is that Irisu's more far-sighted and proactive.

Originally Posted by Hyper

relentlessflame is doing a better job explaining than me, so I'll only add this bit: Because she is dealing with his sister. Sooner or later she'll know about it, and it's better to deal with it herself instead of let her hear about it from Houtarou. Why care about that? Because she thinks his sister is useful. It's better to keep her on her side. She couldn't care less about Houtarou by this point, but it's different for Tomoe.

I don't think that interpretation is tenable. Assuming A~ta~shi really is Tomoe, she's the one who pointed Irisu at the Classics Club and Houtarou in particular. She told him how to push his buttons. She has no right to complain about Houtarou being manipulated.

To me, in this story so far, viewing Irisu in a good light is as hard as saying the guy behind Sekitani Jun is a good person. It is possible. He wanted the movement(project) to success. He did not want to hurt Jun. In fact, he wanted Jun to be a hero. It just turned out the way he did not expect.

However, I do not think anyone will be convinced.

Like hell. The guys behind Jun just wanted to escape the consequences which they knew would be bad. Though it didn't have to go to expulsion, the risk was definitely there. And why would they want to make him in particular a hero? Especially since he was chosen by lottery.

All that happened to Houtarou was that he put in a little more effort than he otherwise might have.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She'd need to do a lot more than shake his hand to qualify for that.

True. Besides, I think it's equally likely that Irisu was interested in Oreki as it was that Oreki was interested in her. But I'll wait to see if Irisu even shows up in this anime again before I give much more thought to either possibility.

Again, one can say that Irisu's ways of conflict avoidance are cowardly and suboptimal. But it's not like Hongou's any better. The difference is that Irisu's more far-sighted and proactive.

Agreed.

Like hell. The guys behind Jun just wanted to escape the consequences which they knew would be bad. Though it didn't have to go to expulsion, the risk was definitely there. And why would they want to make him in particular a hero? Especially since he was chosen by lottery.

All that happened to Houtarou was that he put in a little more effort than he otherwise might have.

Well, in fairness, there is a strong thematic consistency between this arc and the Jun arc, so some comparisons between the two are fine.

In both cases, a person was "voluntold" to do something, and became something of a sacrificial lamb. In both cases, there were sweet lies in front of less pleasant truths, and some degree of manipulation going on.

But yes, the degree of "wrong-doing" is substantially different. One is on the level of a prank, as you wrote. The other is on the level of getting someone fired from their job. So I'd encourage caution in any character-based comparisons between the two arcs.

[Hyper]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't think that interpretation is tenable. Assuming A~ta~shi really is Tomoe, she's the one who pointed Irisu at the Classics Club and Houtarou in particular. She told him how to push his buttons. She has no right to complain about Houtarou being manipulated.

She may has no right to complain about being manipulated, but she have the right to complain about hurting his brother self-esteem. I already pointed out that if Tomoe was indeed the one who suggest it, Irisu still have some explaining to do about why and how she failed. I don't think Tomoe told her "This is how you use my brother. BTW, he'll find out about it, so be prepared for that."

My idea of sibling relationship is, to quote from a Gears of War book, "can fight each other to the death, but no outsider is allowed to touch them." I have a sister, and I agree with that. Tomoe can tell Irisu to do whatever to screw up Houtarou's life, but Irisu has no right to do anymore than she was told. She did. That's why she has to bring it up and give her excuse.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Like hell. The guys behind Jun just wanted to escape the consequences which they knew would be bad. Though it didn't have to go to expulsion, the risk was definitely there. And why would they want to make him in particular a hero? Especially since he was chosen by lottery.

All that happened to Houtarou was that he put in a little more effort than he otherwise might have.

I agree with you, and that's why I brought it up. To me, viewing Irisu in a good light, so far, is as hard as justify that guy. I can still insist that no one know the end result will be bad. I can still insist that even if by lottery, he completely intended to make Sekitani Jun a hero. But would you buy it? I won't.


Same as Irisu here. I think she want the right to choose the script without the responsibility of doing so. That was why she went through so many hoops. There are two main parts to that

1. The success of the movie: If the movie is a failure because of the writing, she bare no responsibility aside from being a leader. People will either think Houtarou solution is wrong, or Hougou script is bad. However, given how she prioritized this, I think if this happened, she may come up clean and shoulder the blame. But you can see here that she doesn't have to.
2. People's feeling itself: This is, I think, the whole point of why she did what she did. She avoid taking responsibility for her classmates' self-esteem. She may have enough power to come out and say "Hougou, your script sucks. And you, the rest of the class, is not any better. I'll find a better writer." But then she'll have to shoulder all the feelings of displeasure, resistance, or even hate from her classmate. When I'm a teacher/leader, I try to be very careful when I have to make a statement like that. If I have to, I must be prepared for the hate, the bad evaluation, etc. Moreover, I'll be responsible to show how they can be improved. Irisu doesn't want any of that.

Yes the degree is different, that's why it's an analogy. I'm not saying Irisu is as bad as that guy, but trying to say that her intention is a "good" one is as hard as saying the same thing about that guy.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Hyper

She may has no right to complain about being manipulated, but she have the right to complain about hurting his brother self-esteem. I already pointed out that if Tomoe was indeed the one who suggest it, Irisu still have some explaining to do about why and how she failed. I don't think Tomoe told her "This is how you use my brother. BTW, he'll find out about it, so be prepared for that."

My idea of sibling relationship is, to quote from a Gears of War book, "can fight each other to the death, but no outsider is allowed to touch them." I have a sister, and I agree with that.

So you'd rather be deceived and manipulated by your sister than by a relative stranger? I have two younger sisters myself, and I can tell you that I'd take much more offense at being deceived and manipulated by one of them than I would at being deceived and manipulated by someone I barely know.

Close family members should treat each other better than that. But as for people I barely know, well, I don't think I should expect much from them.

Strongly critiquing Irisu while giving Tomoe a pass seems weird to me - Tomoe has more reason to care about Oreki's well-being than Irisu does. So there's no good reason to hold Irisu to a stricter standard than Tomoe, imo.

Tomoe can tell Irisu to do whatever to screw up Houtarou's life, but Irisu has no right to do anymore than she was told.

Irisu probably didn't do anymore than what she was told. What tipped Oreki off wasn't anything Irisu did or said, it was Oreki's friends that tipped him off, and there's nothing that Irisu or Tomoe could have done about that. If Irisu simply followed Tomoe's instructions, then it's not Irisu's fault if Oreki figured it out. It's as much a miscalculation on Tomoe's part as it is on Irisu's.

Same as Irisu here. I think she want the right to choose the script without the responsibility of doing so.

Wait a minute here. You think that Irisu bringing in the Classics Club lowers Irisu's responsibility?

Hell no. It heightens it if anything.

Irisu could have easily made Hongou "the fall guy" for this, and come out of this relatively clean no matter what happened.

Irisu: I regret to inform you that Hongou's script is incompatible with what has already been filmed.

Student A: How's it incompatible?

Irisu: Hongou's script doesn't include a murder.

Student B: Wait, what? That's not what we agreed on!


The students might be too nice to explicitly blame Hongou, but you can be sure that if this movie project ends up with a poor finish, Hongou's refusal to write a script with a murder in it will now be seen as the reason why. Irisu will be an afterthought for the students here, and won't be "tied" to Hongou that much in the student's minds.


But Irisu bringing in Oreki has now shifted the focus from Hongou to Oreki... and Irisu. He's her guy. He's her hand-picked person to solve this. It's like a pro sports team GM signing a key free agent to try to fill a hole on a team and turn that team into a winner. If that player performs very badly and the team misses the playoffs because of it, yeah, the player will bear the brunt of the fan heat, but I can assure you that the GM will take a lot of heat as well.

Similarly, if Oreki doesn't come up with a good way to finish the movie, Irisu's credibility/image is taking a real hit as well, because her and Oreki are now tied together in the minds of the students working on this film.

If Irisu was entirely self-serving here, she would have just washed her hands of the movie project as much as possible, and made Hongou "the fall guy". That's what she would have done if she was truly cold and uncaring.

But no, she wanted the movie project to succeed (not for her personal glory, which is actually now being put at risk here, but for the sake of the project itself), and she wanted Hongou to be spared getting hurt. That's the only way to make sense out of Irisu's actions, imo.

[*]People's feeling itself: This is, I think, the whole point of why she did what she did. She avoid taking responsibility for her classmates' self-esteem. She may have enough power to come out and say "Hougou, your script sucks. And you, the rest of the class, is not any better. I'll find a better writer." But then she'll have to shoulder all the feelings of displeasure, resistance, or even hate from her classmate.

I think this is why she didn't go to bat for Hongou, or take a very hard line with the club as a whole. Yes, Irisu clearly values conflict-avoidance and wants to be liked and respected.

But Irisu could have made Hongou "the fall guy" without having to shoulder these feelings of displeasure, resistance, or hate. And then after making Hongou the fall guy, Irisu could have just said "Ok, let's brainstorm a new script ending". Sure, it almost certainly wouldn't have been as good as what Oreki came up with, but it would be something at least. It would likely be a bad movie, but Irisu did her part - She made sure it was finished, even through very difficult circumstances.

And it's not like Irisu isn't smart enough to come up with this. No, this simply wasn't acceptable to her, because she wanted the movie to be as good as it could be, and she wanted to protect Hongou.

And here is much of the reason why I've defended Irisu so much. At least she took responsibility and didn't wash her hands of everything and settle for a crap movie (when she easily could have done all of that). Irisu gets things done, and she takes pride in her work. I've been in the adult world long enough to know that a lot of people (maybe even most people) just want to cover their asses and pass the buck when things get messy. Irisu didn't do that, and there's some real value in that, imo. and I think that's getting drowned out way too much by all of the criticisms that have been made of Irisu on this thread.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think you're right. Here's my theory: I think she's giving him a bit of "service" as a reward.

Part of Houtarou's motivation wasn't just to prove himself as a capable detective, but also because an attractive girl asked him to do it. He wanted to impress her. (That he was doing it partly for her sake was mentioned a number of times in the episodes.) So as she's praising him after he "figured out the mystery" and saying how great he is for living up to her expectations, I think she wants to give a bit of "skinship" to put him right on cloud nine. Because it's so culturally unusual, it leaves that much more of an impact, and a handshake is still known as a business gesture, so it's a way of further reinforcing that she takes him seriously. And it definitely got his tail wagging -- as he said, "Home Run". By doing this, not only does he feel appreciated, but he'd also be more likely to help her out in the future.

Of course, what she wasn't counting on is his friends in the club, who brought him back down to earth. (Perhaps that was her real miscalculation? She was always focused only on him, and the rest were just along for the ride.) And, of course, she wasn't counting on him being smart enough to solve the real mystery that he had been blind to before -- the one that Eru had been focused on all along. In the end, Houtarou is a good detective, but he needs the support of others he can trust to keep his focus where it should be. In other words: "Only Human."

Thinking about it, ignoring the club so much probably was her miscalculation. Whether she cared about him finding out after he'd given her a solid ending I'm not sure, but may not have counted on the club members pointing out the holes in the ending. Her focus in all of this has always been on him so it does make some sense that she'd ignore them.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I think that the real culprit in all of this matter is Hongou herself. The whole problem originated from the fact that she stubbornly refused to listen to her classmates and went along with her murderless mistery.

Irisu tried to control the damage as much as she can, probably because she felt responsible as the club president. It is also true that Irisu herself didn't like Hongou's script so she caught two birds with one stone. But is this really wrong? In the end Irisu, with Houtaro's help, managed to make a movie that satisfied 99% of her clubmates.
Yes, she used some dubious methods to achieve that result but in the end nobody was hurt, save for Houtaro's pride. She doesn't deserve all this hate.

I don't think Hongou is close to being the culprit in this. Her only fault was not standing up to her class, but frankly that's a lot to ask of someone. They pushed her to write their story, their genre, and their body count. If she was asked to write the story then she should have had some flexibility. But instead her vote to have no deaths was removed as even an option. The culprit in this is the class at the core with Irisu as a secondary.

So it's fine long as the 1% who isn't satisfied is the one who was forced by the class to write said story? If the class wanted to control everything about the story then they should have written it together. Instead they wanted to be surprised by a mystery, but one that they pick most of the elements for. What would be the point of her even trying to make clear what kind of story she wanted to the producer since the class clearly never wanted her opinion in the first place. They just wanted her writing ability.

Of course it's wrong. If Irisu felt responsible she should have stood beside her classmate not trick her and change the story. If she didn't like the ending then she should have written one herself not rope someone unrelated into it. Maybe the class is happy, but two people are left hurt by this incident. It might be a minor thing in the big scheme of things, but minor wounds can add up and affect you down the road.

It is ironic that the ones that conjointly wrote this story (Hongou and Houtarou) are the ones who are the least happy at the end of this arc. The people the tricked and pushed them end up pretty happy, but the writers are left in the cold.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I don't think Hongou is close to being the culprit in this. Her only fault was not standing up to her class,

Stand up to her class? Why should Hongou's taste in movies take precedence over the entire rest of the class? Such an idea would be very selfish on Hongou's part.

They pushed her to write their story, their genre, and their body count. If she was asked to write the story then she should have had some flexibility.

She did have some flexibility. Write a murder mystery. There's plenty of flexibility in that.

But instead her vote to have no deaths was removed as even an option.

Even if it hadn't been removed it would have been overruled by everybody else voting for at least a murder.

The culprit in this is the class at the core with Irisu as a secondary.

I totally disagree. The class has every right to go with a murder mystery as their movie of choice.

So it's fine long as the 1% who isn't satisfied is the one who was forced by the class to write said story?

You can't literally force somebody to write something. Hongou could have said "I'm not comfortable writing a movie with a murder in it. Sorry, but you're going to need to get a new writer."

But no, Hongou decided to just dismiss what the rest of the class wanted, and write what she alone wanted. Hongou should feel guilty about it, imo.

If the class wanted to control everything about the story

Control everything about the story? All they wanted was a murder mystery, and that's one of the most common subgenres around. You could tell they were quite flexible when it came to just about everything else, or you wouldn't have these wildly divergent theories pitched to Oreki and the Classics Club.

Of course it's wrong. If Irisu felt responsible she should have stood beside her classmate

Why should Irisu favor Hongou over the entire rest of the club? Honestly, that's what I would have considered wrong of Irisu. So I'm glad Irisu didn't do that, even if it is in large part because of Irisu's preference for conflict avoidance.

not trick her and change the story.

Hongou wasn't tricked. Hongou was simply given an out, and she took it.

Maybe the class is happy, but two people are left hurt by this incident. It might be a minor thing in the big scheme of things, but minor wounds can add up and affect you down the road.

And you don't think there's "minor wounds" in disappointing the entire rest of the club?

"Man, what a crappy movie. With a story that's not even what we voted for! This has left me feeling pretty jaded about school clubs and team efforts in general."

That type of disappointment can add up and affect people down the road too.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You can't literally force somebody to write something. Hongou could have said "I'm not comfortable writing a movie with a murder in it. Sorry, but you're going to need to get a new writer."

But no, Hongou decided to just dismiss what the rest of the class wanted, and write what she alone wanted. Hongou should feel guilty about it, imo.

I think it's pretty clear that Hongou did not feel comfortable standing up to the class like that. I don't know if she felt that she would be ostracised if she didn't accept the job, or if she just wasn't comfortable speaking up for herself when faced with that much pressure. Maybe she just didn't have it in her to write about a murder, but thought that if she could do her best to write a story in a different way (still true to the mystery genre) the class could still be satisfied with what she could do? Or maybe she just made a mistake. But I don't think it's necessary to blame her so much either. She did a lot of work already; arguably more than the rest of the class given all her research and care when writing the script. I don't think she deserves such harsh judgement, even if she does share in the blame. (Besides, I think she feels guilty enough already.)

Again, my opinion is that this is a leadership problem; she was set-up to fail, and didn't get the support she needed (or feel comfortable asking for it). Rather than feeling able to ask for help, she had to take an exit when offered. I would never want to be a member of that class.

(Incidentally, we still don't actually know the ending Hongou wrote.)