Code Geass Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[wuabel]

Originally Posted by monir

Forgive me for going off topic, but I have to get this off my chest before it comes out Alien style. I've never seen an episode discussion thread ring up 600+ posts before, and fans still manage to stay on topic. My homage to the fans...

You folks are simply awesome. I'm taking a screenshot for my collection. *click*

wow, this is true, when was the last time an episode discussion has up to 33 pages?

this must mean something...
C.G. > all~

crap, did I go off topic already? ><

[Juvyniled]

Episode 22 was 'special', which is why it received more attention than many other episodes. Compared to any other major incidents, this is really a breakthrough (relatively speaking). Not often do you see the most innocent person with the best intentions victimized by chaos.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's a good way of putting it. Although I'd say that the goal is for Zero to appear like the savior. Given his methods, I don't think it'd be fair to say that he actually is one.

That's the key, isn't it? I know of several fiction stories where someone who had no intentions of doing good ended up being praised for being a hero at the end of it all, because as far as others are concerned he did what heroes do. In the end, the actions speak louder than anything else.
(And who can really tell how many heroes in our own history was actually as heroic as history claimed?)

As for the method? I personally think someone who used righteous methods but didn't save anyone is less of a saviour than some using a dodgy method that saved people inadvertently. After all, a savior's status is entirely dependent on the number of people who actually got saved.

Just as those with the best of intentions can send millions to hell, what's to say the opposite couldn't be true?

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

As for the method? I personally think someone who used righteous methods but didn't save anyone is less of a saviour than some using a dodgy method that saved people inadvertently. After all, a savior's status is entirely dependent on the number of people who actually got saved.

Just as those with the best of intentions can send millions to hell, what's to say the opposite couldn't be true?

Granted that heroism is dependent on how people view a person, saving more people would depict that a person as more of a hero than anything. Hence, Lelouch is a hero. But by insisting on fighting, he is only allowing more room for civilians to become casualties.

I hate being technical, but if the title of saviour is dependent on the number of people saved... how do people that were killed count into this? While the many deaths of the Elevens in the stadiums were at the hands of princess Euphemia, it was Lelouch that caused it. Don't mistake me, I am not passing blame (blaming someone and holding someone accountable are two different matters).

All in all, I'd say Lelouch could in fact save many people, but given his nature, he is one major control freak. The more he believes he is in control, the more likely he is to use more 'extreme' or riskier courses of action. And that is ultimately what sparked this incident.

Suzaku might believe he is a saviour, but I don't, with the exception of the very few times he caught a falling woman and her child . What he is doing isn't actually saving anyone, it's just to avoid having to cause civilians casualties himself (from what we've seen so far; he could very likely be twisted somehow to turning against civilians given a major turnabout).

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

I hate being technical, but if the title of saviour is dependent on the number of people saved... how do people that were killed count into this?

If history is any judge? Absolutely none.

The dead can't denounce anyone. Only the living can pass judgement.

Note that I mentioned how we can never be sure the historical heroes we got are as heroic as we are taught about them. The details are always lost.
You said it yourself; because of several factors, what happened with the recent massacre couldn't be directly attributed to Zero. Not the least was how the entire Britannian army lacked a conscience. Euphie may or may not be vindicated in th future, but her troops did unquestionably performed the task, that is the unshakable fact.

The true origin of this massacre is the existence of a deadly and hostile invader army. And since Zero is fighting them and winning, that makes him Savior.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

If history is any judge? Absolutely none.

The dead can't denounce anyone. Only the living can pass judgement.

Note that I mentioned how we can never be sure the historical heroes we got are as heroic as we are taught about them. The details are always lost.
You said it yourself; because of several factors, what happened with the recent massacre couldn't be directly attributed to Zero. Not the least was how the entire Britannian army lacked a conscience. Euphie may or may not be vindicated in th future, but her troops did unquestionably performed the task, that is the unshakable fact.

The true origin of this massacre is the existence of a deadly and hostile invader army. And since Zero is fighting them and winning, that makes him Savior.

A Saviour at the possible cost of his conscience and his insanity...?
I keep getting the feeling that one of these days, he's just going to break down and lash out at anyone who tries to get near him, especially with this latest development.

[Jazzrat]

The most appropriate classic quote for this is, history is written by the victor.

[evil|plushie]

Years from now, Lelouch will be summoned as Caster in the next Holy grail war -_-....

But I do think Lelouch is a hero to the japanese at least even if he isn't one to the Britainnians. It really depends on whose POV you're looking at. I'm sure Arthur could be considered a hero to his people, but I bet his enemies hated his guts. -_-

[m-san]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's the key, isn't it? I know of several fiction stories where someone who had no intentions of doing good ended up being praised for being a hero at the end of it all, because as far as others are concerned he did what heroes do. In the end, the actions speak louder than anything else.
(And who can really tell how many heroes in our own history was actually as heroic as history claimed?)

As for the method? I personally think someone who used righteous methods but didn't save anyone is less of a saviour than some using a dodgy method that saved people inadvertently. After all, a savior's status is entirely dependent on the number of people who actually got saved.

Just as those with the best of intentions can send millions to hell, what's to say the opposite couldn't be true?

I absolutely agree. Who cares if Zero secretly used Elevens as bait? Who cares if he [accidentally] turned Euphie against the Elevens? Would it matter after the Japanese get what they wanted, which is independence? Probably decades, even centuries after they gained independence would someone give a **** about Zero's methods, after some gifted historian digs up evidence to prove he isn't such a hero after all.

[MUAHAHAHAHAHA]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Years from now, Lelouch will be summoned as Caster in the next Holy grail war -_-....

But I do think Lelouch is a hero to the japanese at least even if he isn't one to the Britainnians. It really depends on whose POV you're looking at. I'm sure Arthur could be considered a hero to his people, but I bet his enemies hated his guts. -_-

Yes,because Lelouch is like a catalyst,without him,kallen's resistance group would not have hope of crashing Britannia.With Lelouch,the resistance group is getting stronger and stronger and help them fight Britannians

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's the key, isn't it? I know of several fiction stories where someone who had no intentions of doing good ended up being praised for being a hero at the end of it all, because as far as others are concerned he did what heroes do. In the end, the actions speak louder than anything else.
(And who can really tell how many heroes in our own history was actually as heroic as history claimed?)

That's right. There's all sorts of reasons to inflate the heroism of certain people. The same is true of villains - the only difference is that the capacity for human cruelty is very high, so there often isn't a need for inflation.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

As for the method? I personally think someone who used righteous methods but didn't save anyone is less of a saviour than some using a dodgy method that saved people inadvertently. After all, a savior's status is entirely dependent on the number of people who actually got saved.

Just as those with the best of intentions can send millions to hell, what's to say the opposite couldn't be true?

I agree. Intentions, either good or bad, are irrelevant when it comes to morality. The reason I said that Lelouch's methods don't qualify him as a savior is because he often acts against the interests of the Japanese people. While he may end up saving them in the end, he's also partly responsible for their suffering. Another way of framing the issue is if the Japanese people became aware of what he had done and what he was doing, would they approve?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Another way of framing the issue is if the Japanese people became aware of what he had done and what he was doing, would they approve?

I already answered that in an earlier post; what cruelty Zero has committed is nothing compared to what Britannia has done, is doing, and will continue to do to the Japanese people. And since Zero is the only one making a real difference in fighting Britannia, I can see them giving their approval.
Better a demon fighting with you than an angel fighting against you.

Look at it another way; would the Japanese rather have Britannia ruling their country than having Zero doing what he does? The Japanese audience watching the show doesn't seem to think so.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I already answered that in an earlier post; what cruelty Zero has committed is nothing compared to what Britannia has done, is doing, and will continue to do to the Japanese people. And since Zero is the only one making a real difference in fighting Britannia, I can see them giving their approval.
Better a demon fighting with you than an angel fighting against you.

The question here is whether the cure is any better than the disease. Another important point is whether Britannia's treatment of Area 11 would ever improve. As Euphemia's proclamation showed, while there's a lot of resistance (particularly in the military, I imagine), it's not entirely out of the question.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Look at it another way; would the Japanese rather have Britannia ruling their country than having Zero doing what he does?

Your question and mine are largely the same, and I would imagine that they would have equally mixed responses. Undoubtedly, some people wouldn't mind sacrificing their countrymen if it meant getting back at the Britannians, while others would be inclined to maintain stability and the status quo. The thing is, after almost ten years of occupation, I would imagine that most of the Japanese people would be less inclined to the former.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The Japanese audience watching the show doesn't seem to think so.

The Japanese audience are very different from the inhabitants of Area 11, so their opinions are effectively irrelevant. It's easy to say that sacrifices are worthwhile if you're not the ones making the sacrifice.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I already answered that in an earlier post; what cruelty Zero has committed is nothing compared to what Britannia has done, is doing, and will continue to do to the Japanese people. And since Zero is the only one making a real difference in fighting Britannia, I can see them giving their approval.
Better a demon fighting with you than an angel fighting against you.

I doubt that Britannia had actually round up people in a stadium under false pretense and then exterminated them right there. Pretty sure Lelouch is the first britannian to do anything close to it.

Aside from that Britannia doesn't seem to care too much about "collateral damage"

Eitherway, the cost is quite high and while I am a consequentialists it would still be difficult to say the same to people who suffered or bore the brunt of the sacrifice that Zero had the people make(I'm pretty sure not all of them died and those that died had friends or families who would mourn their deaths). Even if they gain independence(Which I'm sure they will) they will more or less question or make him seem less of a hero or even disregard him completely and mark themselves as the ones.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The dead can't denounce anyone. Only the living can pass judgement.

Note that I mentioned how we can never be sure the historical heroes we got are as heroic as we are taught about them. The details are always lost.
You said it yourself; because of several factors, what happened with the recent massacre couldn't be directly attributed to Zero. Not the least was how the entire Britannian army lacked a conscience. Euphie may or may not be vindicated in th future, but her troops did unquestionably performed the task, that is the unshakable fact.

The true origin of this massacre is the existence of a deadly and hostile invader army. And since Zero is fighting them and winning, that makes him Savior.

Then I suppose the title of saviour is essentially viewed in the same manner as the title of hero? In that case, it wouldn't be dependent on how many lives he's saved, but on the people's opinion of the person. I can't disagree with that since it is basically how the Eleven's see him.

I don't question Lelouch's title as a hero. I know for a fact that he is a hero in the eyes of Eleven's and some Britannians.

Whether or not he directly or indirectly caused it, Lelouch played a major role in the outcome of this. It is similar to something you pointed out to me awhile back; Suzaku doesn't take part in the brutal killings that the empire orders, but he is contributing to it nonetheless but sustaining the empire's well-being, which ultimately allows them to continue doing what they're doing. While Lelouch is not the one murdering people, he has allowed room for this to happen. In the second half of the episode, he clearly admits that he knew that this could happen, but he insisted on doing it anyway. As a result, he has 'allowed' Euphemia to give orders to soldiers to kill innocent bystanders.

[tritoch]

Oh wow. The people on the Gundam thread are all here.

[Rall)eon117X]

Wow. Wow!!! That's all i really have to say. This episode was by far one of the most amazing episodes, in terms of being unexpected, that I've ever seen, from any anime. And they director pulled it off extremely well. Particularly the end when Lelouch gives the order to kill Euphie, and he cries.

I really cant wait until Episode 23. Shouldn't be too long now!!

[Sinestra]

Im wondering what the political fallout there might be if Euphie were to die? Granted nothing could happen, but with other countries watching with interest as events unfold in Area 11 this could be a point of weakness for Britannia. If Euphie were to die this would be the second person of the royal family to be killed there. Both Clovis and Euphie were in the political spotlight a lot. The fact that Britannia has lost two royals could be a single to other countries that Britannia can quell the uprising in Japan. With the world the way it is CG its like a pack of Hyenas off in the distance just waiting for a chance to take your kill.

[m-san]

Well, the Brittanian-flag-turning-into-the-Japanese-flag in the OP could be a clue to Brittania's fall, at least in Japan.

What I can't wait for is Cornelia's reaction and the course of action she'll take to avenge Euphie's death. Oh, and Suzaku's too.

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Eleven days ago, Shinsen was so far behind, it wasn't funny. Since then, they've release eight episodes and caught up.

Eleven days. One has to admire their commitment to the revolution.

If they release the flashback episode and two more specials (they released the first Drama Picture special today as well), that would be eleven Geass releases in eleven days. Then I'll start to worry.