Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I'm not. You are the one who is mixing things up, as your argument simply does not fit Homura's words, actions, and behavior in this movie. You keep arguing that Homura has complete confidence in her take on Madoka when Homura's own words and actions makes it clear that this is definitely not the case. It simply does not make any sense to keep asking someone what her feelings and opinions are if you are already completely confident about what they are.

Your interpretation is an incomplete and invalid one, because it fails to adequately explain why Homura would pose the Law or Desires question. In contrast, my interpretation provides an adequate explanation for that. My interpretation is the one that fits all the scenes and dialogue and patterns of behavior that are presented. Your interpretation does not fit all of it.

The last scene momentarily aside, my interpretation fits everything just fine. It pefectly accounts for every line and every action, including the fact that Homura calls herself Akuma.

But first things first. The flower field scene is about feelings and desires as opposed to choices. Madoka says that she would suffer a lot if she had to make such a heavy sacrifice as leaving her loved ones behind. Homura takes her word for it but points out that even if Madoka feels that way, she would still choose to make the sacrifice as she's a very strong and courageous person. There's a contradiction going on here but it's not Homura's. The contradiction is between Madoka's feelings/personal desires and her decisions. That's why, in order to make her happy, in order to fulfill her desires, Homura had to trap her and take away her free will (hence she calls herself Akuma, the existence that opposes God's will).

To make Madoka happy, Homura had to effectively rob Madoka of her right to make a choice. Needles to say, she feels terribly guilty about it (this is the source of Homura's own conflicted feelings), and maybe that's why she tries to give Madoka the chance to make a decision on her own afterwards, in the school hallway. A desperate attempt to appease her conscience, so to speak. An irrational move though, as she knows it's futile.

Unlike the flower field scene, the school hallway scene puts the emphasis on choices. Homura doesn't ask about Madoka's feelings, her actual desires. She just presents two options for her to choose. The question itself reflects the main themes at work: personal happiness vs the greater good, desires vs choices. Homura's always known Madoka's answer, but it's still hard for her to hear it as she desperately longs for her approval. Alas, it just can't be. Still, in the practical sense this just means that Homura has to keep going with plan A: to make Madoka happy even though it means opposing her will and choice.

And that's that. Take it as you will. And I already know that you disagree and why you do so, so unless you have new material to add to the discussion let's just stop here and move on.

[RobotCat]

Which one is your reaction?

[Qilin]

Alright. I was following the movie just fine until that last fifteen minutes came up hit me at the back of my head. I wouldn't be too hasty to say that it was inconsistent with Homura's characterization, but it really did come as shock. I'll have to rewatch it and see if this twist was foreshadowed.

In any case, what I can take from this movie is that it essentially shows how a person can choose to suffer even when happiness is perfectly within reach. That's because suffering here entails the feeling you choose to burden yourself with. It's a cross you bear not because of any significant reward or result, but because you want to. Therefore, the very act of carrying it brings about a kind of resigned satisfaction. This seems to be true for both Madoka and Homura as of this movie, though in Homura's case, the suffering takes the form of a distorted love for Madoka.

Despite it's flaws, it's still a great show at depicting the absurdity of the human condition.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Alright. I was following the movie just fine until that last fifteen minutes came up hit me at the back of my head. I wouldn't be too hasty to say that it was inconsistent with Homura's characterization, but it really did come as shock. I'll have to rewatch it and see if this twist was foreshadowed.

Homura's change of heart was kinda foreshadowed... and not too far-fetched regardless.
Homura being able to suppress Madoka's power and rewrite the universe in her own image however, was not foreshadowed in the slightest.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Homura's change of heart was kinda foreshadowed... and not too far-fetched regardless.

In retrospect, I suppose it was. That entire last fifteen minutes could be interpreted as her answer to that internal conflict. She rejected salvation and kept her feelings intact.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Homura being able to suppress Madoka's power and rewrite the universe in her own image however, was not foreshadowed in the slightest.

The entire first 2/3 of the movie was foreshadowing this. Madoka had her memory wiped in the Labyrinth and was essentially trapped there. In the new world, Madoka still has all of her power, but her sense of 'self' is being suppressed by Homura and she's unable to access it.

Regarding rewriting the Universe, Kyubei did remark that it's surprising that Homura was able to recreate the city so perfectly in her Labyrinth, and this was before she even became a witch. If you scale her power up, then it's not too far fetched to believe that she could recreate the world.

The only big issue is how she was able to gain so much power to be able to do this, and that's not particularly clear. I mean, there are a lot of plausible theories, but they all require extrapolating on plot points way beyond what's shown in the series and movies.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

A theory is that Homura deliberately shot purple energy in EP1 to hide her capabilities. So that QB couldn't figure out that Homura could stop time, or that she used modern weaponry. As soon as Homura became emotional and used her real capabilities on QB in the bench in EP8, QB figured out that Homura was from another time.

Of course, her purple energy was too weak. That's why she failed to intercept/kill QB before he reached Madoka.

The only problem with that is Episode 10 heavily implies that Homura has no magical attacks at all. No weapons, no spells, nothing. Her shield is basically all she has, which is in line with Urobuchi describing her as a 'weak magical girl'. Given that early promo art shows her with a bow and arrow and that things changed since the original drafts, it's possible Homura's powers just werent set in stone early on in the series, and that was taken advantage of to hide her time travel secret for as long as possible.

One thing I don't get is, what's that girl's name anyway? Charlotte is her witch name, right? In the promotional material released before the movie, she is called Nagisa Momoe. I don't recall that name being used in the movie, though I maybe wrong. Mami always called her Bebe. So is the name of her human form Bebe, or Nagisa?

Inu Curry has recently gone on record stating that they believed that witches wouldn't use their true names, and that the Magical Girls can't actually read the witch runes. Oktavia wouldn't actually introduce herself as such if she could speak, but would make up a pseudonym.

The entire first 2/3 of the movie was foreshadowing this. Madoka had her memory wiped in the Labyrinth and was essentially trapped there. In the new world, Madoka still has all of her power, but her sense of 'self' is being suppressed by Homura and she's unable to access it.

Invalid. Madoka deliberately handed her memories and power to Nagisa and Sayaka, who could remember things fine and were perfectly capable of breaking the barrier at any time, but placed Homura's emotional well-being as their priority on Madoka's orders.

Regarding rewriting the Universe, Kyubei did remark that it's surprising that Homura was able to recreate the city so perfectly in her Labyrinth, and this was before she even became a witch. If you scale her power up, then it's not too far fetched to believe that she could recreate the world.

But HOW did her power scale up? That's the problematic part.

Also, she was technically a witch in all ways that mattered, she just wasn't self-aware of it. Regardless, Kyubey's surprise needs to be taken in context of the fact that he's never encountered Witches before. The replication of an entire city isn't necessarily amazing in context of the old universe.

The only big issue is how she was able to gain so much power to be able to do this, and that's not particularly clear. I mean, there are a lot of plausible theories, but they all require extrapolating on plot points way beyond what's shown in the series and movies.

And this is why people say it's not foreshadowed.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The only problem with that is Episode 10 heavily implies that Homura has no magical attacks at all. No weapons, no spells, nothing. Her shield is basically all she has, which is in line with Urobuchi describing her as a 'weak magical girl'. Given that early promo art shows her with a bow and arrow and that things changed since the original drafts, it's possible Homura's powers just werent set in stone early on in the series, and that was taken advantage of to hide her time travel secret for as long as possible.

I just want to point out that Homura does use magical attacks to kill QB in episode 10. Her attack is a sort of purple beam.

I also remember that in episode 11 she uses the same purple energy to manipulate a truck and other machinery while fighting WN.

More than being magically weak, I think Homura's problem is that she lacks a weapon to use her magic offensively. Or maybe she really is supposed to be weak and the anime is just a bit inconsistent about her power.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Inu Curry has recently gone on record stating that they believed that witches wouldn't use their true names, and that the Magical Girls can't actually read the witch runes. Oktavia wouldn't actually introduce herself as such if she could speak, but would make up a pseudonym.

Plus, while both "Bebe" and "Nagisa" are used in the movie itself, "Momoe" never is. Theoretically, her name could be Nagisa Bebe.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The last scene momentarily aside, my interpretation fits everything just fine. It pefectly accounts for every line and every action, including the fact that Homura calls herself Akuma.

But first things first. The flower field scene is about feelings and desires as opposed to choices. Madoka says that she would suffer a lot if she had to make such a heavy sacrifice. Homura takes her word for it but points out that even if Madoka feels that way, she would still choose to make the sacrifice. There's a contradiction going on here but it's not Homura's. The contradiction is between Madoka's feelings/personal desire and her decisions. That's why, in order to make her happy, in order to fulfill her desires, Homura had to trap her and take her free will away (hence she calls herself Akuma, the existence that opposes God's will).

To make Madoka happy, Homura had to effectively rob Madoka of her right to make a choice. Needles to say, she feels terribly guilty about it (this is the source of Homura's own conflicted feelings), and maybe that's why she tries to give Madoka the chance to make a decision on her own afterwards, in the school hallway. A desperate attempt to appease her conscience, so to speak. An irrational move though, as she knows it's futile.

Unlike the flower field scene, the school hallway scene puts the emphasis on choices. Homura doesn't ask about Madoka's feelings, her actual desires. She just presents two options and makes her choose. The question itself reflects the main themes at work: personal happiness vs the greater good, desires vs choices. Homura's always known Madoka's answer, but it's still terribly hard to hear as she desperately longs for Madoka's approval. Alas, it just can't be. Still, in the practical sense this just means that Homura has to keep going with plan A: to make Madoka happy even though it means opposing her will and choice.

And that's that. Take it as you will. And I already know that you disagree and why you do so, so unless you have new material to add to the discussion let's just stop here and move on.

I like this interpretation. I just rewatched the school hallway scene. Homura said "then someday you will probably become my enemy" upon hearing Madoka's answer. Homura won't change her mind regardless of how Madoka answered the question (even then, I want you to be in a world that makes you happy). The purpose of the question is just to see if Madoka will indeed become Homura's enemy. Homura would have won the jackpot if Madoka answered "desires", but she wouldn't be worse off than she already was if Madoka answered "rules". Upon watching that scene more, I don't think Homura was surprised by Madoka's answer. In fact that's the answer that Homura expected. She was very calm when she said the "enemy" line, even though she must feel terrible about being Madoka's enemy.

[AuraTwilight]

I just want to point out that Homura does use magical attacks to kill QB in episode 10. Her attack is a sort of purple beam.

Yea, but they also reused the weird Walpurgisnacht tree thing. They basically reused EP1 content.

I also remember that in episode 11 she uses the same purple energy to manipulate a truck and other machinery while fighting WN.

I admit I forgot about that, but I'd lump it in with how Mami and Kyouko magically enhanced baseball bats and binoculars.

More than being magically weak, I think Homura's problem is that she lacks a weapon to use her magic offensively. Or maybe she really is supposed to be weak and the anime is just a bit inconsistent about her power.

Yea, pretty much this. It's not like the details are in Urobuchi's actual drafts.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Invalid. Madoka deliberately handed her memories and power to Nagisa and Sayaka, who could remember things fine and were perfectly capable of breaking the barrier at any time, but placed Homura's emotional well-being as their priority on Madoka's orders.

I remember Sayaka saying Madoka gave some of her power to Sayaka/Bebe but I guess I missed the part where her memories were were voluntarily sealed too. I remember Kyubey said something regarding Madoka failing to remember who she really is so I guess I attributed that to Homura.

But HOW did her power scale up? That's the problematic part.

Also, she was technically a witch in all ways that mattered, she just wasn't self-aware of it. Regardless, Kyubey's surprise needs to be taken in context of the fact that he's never encountered Witches before. The replication of an entire city isn't necessarily amazing in context of the old universe.

And this is why people say it's not foreshadowed.

Yeah, I forgot he's never met a Witch before, so the Labyrinth would be a new concept. However, in the original series the Witch Labyrinths were never as elaborate as the one Homura created though.

Regarding the universe rewriting powers, one could argue that Homura ALWAYS had the potential to rewrite the Universe. Her time stop ability, although seemingly 'weak', is actually far more powerful than any of the other powers the other Magical Girls had. Her ability to 'rewind' time is essentially the manipulation of the Universe. She's not travelling back in time, but rather changing the Universe to an earlier state for everyone but herself.

We know that Magical Girls gain far more power when turning into a witch. So the extra boost from being witchified amplified her ability immensely. We also know that Madoka is not all powerful, because Kyubey was able to create a barrier that prevented her from entering unless invited. Maybe Homura used something similar to partition the Madoka part of Madokami when she was there to receive Homura, taking the part of Madokami that Homura needed to rewrite the Universe.

Anyways, to me the development isn't really that big of a deal, since it was more about the choices the character make and the reasons they make it rather than whether or not the success relies on plot points that were already developed. I think just the fact that Homura even resolved to make her choice is what's interesting about the story.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I admit I forgot about that, but I'd lump it in with how Mami and Kyouko magically enhanced baseball bats and binoculars.

Well, being able to gather that magic and project it as a sort of beam doesn't sound so farfetched, and Homura does use that kind of technique in episode 10.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by RobotCat

Anyways, to me the development isn't really that big of a deal, since it was more about the choices the character make and the reasons they make it rather than whether or not the success relies on plot points that were already developed. I think just the fact that Homura even resolved to make her choice is what's interesting about the story.

I understand and accept Homura's motivation for rebelling against the Law of Circles system. That is entirely within her character and is well-foreshadowed.

What I don't understand is *how* Homura is able to rewrite the universe. At the end of the day, I understand that we, as fans, can only choose to accept that or abandon the franchise. I'm not going to stop following the show because of this particular flaw, but I have to say that this is sloppy story-telling. This is way below the standard of story-telling that the series set for itself in the TV show.

Compare Homura's case with Madoka in the TV series. That Madoka has universe-rewriting powers is well-foreshadowed and explained in the TV series. So I have no problem with it when Madoka apparently became a deity in EP12. Fans can create an infinite number of theories and justifications on why Homura could do what she did. But that's not good enough. I expect that a good story should be able to do that on-screen. Movie 3 falls short on this.

[AuraTwilight]

Yeah, I forgot he's never met a Witch before, so the Labyrinth would be a new concept. However, in the original series the Witch Labyrinths were never as elaborate as the one Homura created though.

They also weren't labyrinths kept inside a locked Soul Gem with a Witch unaware of their own circumstances, either. I imagine it's easier to make a larger imaginary space than one that has tangible existence on the material plane.

Regarding the universe rewriting powers, one could argue that Homura ALWAYS had the potential to rewrite the Universe. Her time stop ability, although seemingly 'weak', is actually far more powerful than any of the other powers the other Magical Girls had. Her ability to 'rewind' time is essentially the manipulation of the Universe. She's not travelling back in time, but rather changing the Universe to an earlier state for everyone but herself.

The fact that she ties Madoka's fate lines with her alternate selves, plus the implication of changing details (Kyousuke was a guitarist in some universes), implies she's moving between parallel universes, not altering anything.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

They also weren't labyrinths kept inside a locked Soul Gem with a Witch unaware of their own circumstances, either. I imagine it's easier to make a larger imaginary space than one that has tangible existence on the material plane.

According to original series, Walpurnis Night is the only Witch that doesn't need to hide inside it's own barrier. All the other Witch Labyrinths exist inside imaginary worlds too, it's just that they use a barrier as a nexus that overlaps with the real world. The space inside the Labyrinth is much bigger than the barrier's size in the real world. The destruction inside the Labyrinths are not carried back to the real world either.

The fact that she ties Madoka's fate lines with her alternate selves, plus the implication of changing details (Kyousuke was a guitarist in some universes), implies she's moving between parallel universes, not altering anything.

You're right about moving between parallel universes. Although according to the original interview with Gen, the idea of parallel universes was an afterthought. I'm guessing they thought of the time travel mechanic, and usually time travel creates parallel universes.

Anyways, I've been rewatching the series and I do have a new theory regarding Homura's karmic power that takes into account the canon mechanics. I'm rewatching the third movie tomorrow at the premiere so hopefully I'll have something to show on Saturday.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Compare Homura's case with Madoka in the TV series. That Madoka has universe-rewriting powers is well-foreshadowed and explained in the TV series. So I have no problem with it when Madoka apparently became a deity in EP12. Fans can create an infinite number of theories and justifications on why Homura could do what she did. But that's not good enough. I expect that a good story should be able to do that on-screen. Movie 3 falls short on this.

I was confused at this too, but from the visual perspective, I just assumed that by simply making physical contact with Madoka's goddess form, Homura somehow managed to use Madoka's goddess powers against her or something. I'd also assume that this is sort of how Incubators planned on taking control of Madoka's goddess powers once she made herself present inside the gem, which she never did, which is why they were unable to do so then. Obviously this is just a speculation, but I feel like it's consistent enough logically.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Marly

I was confused at this too, but from the visual perspective, I just assumed that by simply making physical contact with Madoka's goddess form, Homura somehow managed to use Madoka's goddess powers against her or something.

This is incorrect. It's made perfectly clear that Homura didn't use Madoka's god powers. Homura reached god-like status with her own power, the power of love.

Homura says so herself. Love is the pinacle of human emotion. Stronger than either hope or despair. That's why Homura, using the power of love, could become a being as powerful as a god.

If you take Homura's word for it, that explanation makes perfect sense.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

This is incorrect. It's made perfectly clear that Homura didn't use Madoka's god powers. Homura reached god-like status with her own power, the power of love.

Homura says so herself. Love is the pinacle of human emotion. Stronger than either hope or despair. That's why Homura, using the power of love, could become a being as powerful as a god.

If you take Homura's word for it, that explanation makes perfect sense.

Yes, I'm perfectly aware that she does say that. I wasn't sure whether she was being literal about it the whole way through, however. Maybe she used the power of love or whatever to split Madoka's powers, and then used that fragment to reshape the universe? At the end of the movie, she also states that she stole a piece of Law of Cycles, so I assumed that she did what she did with what she got from Madoka instead of her powers alone.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Marly

Yes, I'm perfectly aware that she does say that. I wasn't sure whether she was being literal about it the whole way through, however. Maybe she used the power of love or whatever to split Madoka's powers, and then used that fragment to reshape the universe? At the end of the movie, she also states that she stole a piece of Law of Cycles, so I assumed that she did what she did with what she got from Madoka instead of her powers alone.

No, she explains all she took from the Law of Cycles is the records of Madoka's human existence, not power.

Love is what her soul gem is tainted with. That's the source of her power. And of course she's talking literally, after all it's already established that human emotions are the source of magical power in this series.