Penguin Drum - Episode 24 (END) Discussion / Poll

[Kirarakim]

No one knew what Super Frog did either. Granted that was saving Tokyo not your loved ones. But I expect that was more of what Ikuhara was going for then having H&R not having the burden of remembering.

In this case it's not that H&R do not have the burden, but K&S's sacrifice is selfless in the sense it's about the act itself not the fact that they are remembered for the sacrifice.

Frankly I am not a big fan of sacrifice stories usually. But I think this one was thematically interesting. Not that I am saying its perfect.

But I do agree I wished Kanba would have reflected on his negative actions. I did like the scene of him walking by Sanetoshi when he was telling him he would never amount to anything, but his words no longer have an affect on Kanba.

[Sphire]

Hmm, surely the fact that Kanba 'saw' light means he saw the error of his methods? But his intentions all along to save Himari were pure? Shouma saves Kanba, who saves Himari. Sure Shouma might have been able to save Himari straight, but they might have lost Kanba.

As for timeline, I kinda agree on the Kanba got his apple from feelings towards Masako and Mario. Then gave half to Shouma, who gave a further half to Himari (although we always only see a full apple, or I guess it's never fully shown how big the apple is aside from when Kanba gives half to Shouma). We saw Shouma playing somewhat happily with his apple when he first met Himari.

Kanba's first purpose was to save Masako and Mario. Then when he thought he'd done that, and Himari entered his life alongside Shouma, his purpose became to save her, because she was inherently weak too (which doesn't really make logical sense, but meh).

He gave the rest of his apple to Himari, but it still wasn't enough. So Shouma had to do the rest. What Ringo did to me was totally different, and that was to save the train, but Shouma took the punishment instead.

I won't claim to understand everything, since I watched the show in a stop start fashion, saving up episodes here and there and watching a few at a time. And reading here about Shouma reaching out to Ringo and what that symbolised was great. But those were my 2 cents.

[Master_Yoma]

What a great ending hope some one license this

[mysh]

Oh my, this forum is so great for symbolism-related discussion. I think now I understand the boxes scene better, for I took it quite literally at first - as a flashback. And I also love that Shouma has finally found his true apple (IIRC, "Ringo" means "apple" - I find it beatiful!).
I have some questions left about the scene in the terrorists' headquarters when Sho, Kan and Masako all had their own apples - did it happen before or after the boxes? I took it this way: 1. terrorists's headquarters (Sho and Kan have their apples); 2. Child Broiler (Sho gives his apple to Himari); 3. boxes (Sho has no apple and Kan gives him a half of his).

But still MPD has some loose ends.
Firstly, all the things about Mario (and partly about Masako). Why did he have a Penguin hat, why was she working with Sanetoshi at first etc. etc.
Then, the deaths of Kenzan and Chiemi - some sort of dark mistery was implied there that we never came to know about.
And of course, all terrorism-related issues. I absolutely agree with those who think that Kan did horrible things but escaped his punishment.

On the whole I really enjoyed this show; for me it is one of the best ever. And yet, it seems that a lot of ideas and characters it touched at first were later put aside and never got their proper development. It could have been done better, imo.

[Sphire]

Originally Posted by mysh

I have some questions left about the scene in the terrorists' headquarters when Sho, Kan and Masako all had their own apples - did it happen before or after the boxes? I took it this way: 1. terrorists's headquarters (Sho and Kan have their apples); 2. Child Broiler (Sho gives his apple to Himari); 3. boxes (Sho has no apple and Kan gives him a half of his).

We can really only guess. It's not like it was made clear that Kanba knew exactly who Shouma was at the headquarters(he kinda just flogged him off). I still feel the box came first, because doesn't it say that's when they first meet? They even exchange names.

Then at the headquarters, Shouma is kinda happy, with an apple. Whilst Kanba is with Masako, again making me think Kanba's apple was originally feelings for his family, Masako and Mario. Which he forgot as he succumbed to the box(through his fathers actions), but remembered and thus gained the apple, saving him and making him want to help his family. He sacrificed himself though, and lost Masako and Mario, which makes me think he never regained/regenerated the apple after giving half to Shouma.

Then Shouma saves Himari, and Himari comforts Kanba(whose dad dies somewhere between Sho and Himari's build-up in their relationship). Himari's amnesia though is kinda weird.

Also, was Shouma a true child of the Takakuras? I know the other two aren't, but when Shouma said he got annoyed they brought Kanba home and made him the older brother, it made me think that he was actually the Takakuras true child. Which makes his hate for their actions even stronger.


I kinda agree with the rest of what you said though.

[YayPepsi]

Hmm, surely the fact that Kanba 'saw' light means he saw the error of his methods? But his intentions all along to save Himari were pure? Shouma saves Kanba, who saves Himari. Sure Shouma might have been able to save Himari straight, but they might have lost Kanba.

I don't think Shouma would have been able to save Himari on his own, for the same reason Kanba wasn't able to save Himari on his own. They both only had half of Kanba'a apple. In order for the apple to be whole again, Shouma had to give back his half, and then Kanba gave the whole thing to Himari to save her.

[Vus]

All I gotta say: I cried man tears. Overall good ending. Was a fun and exciting series imho.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I will be totally honest with you. I liked the series, and I thought the ending was beautiful and it almost made me cry. Quite frankly, I'm mostly nitpicking with all these criticisms I've been posting .

So yeah, even if the execution could have been better, it was still enough to make me care, and that's enough. Maybe even a little more than enough.

Yeah, I agree with this myself.

It's amazing how much this anime made me care about Ringo, a character that I had been growing tired of near the end of her Yandere phase.

It's also amazing how very well-developed/well-rounded Kanba ended up being. I'm pretty certain he's going to be a very memorable character for me.

Kanba and Ringo will probably be high on my top Male and Female anime characters of the year lists, respectively.

[Used Can]

I'd really like some OVA with backstory for Sanetoshi, or simply any backstory. I'd take it even if it came on a character material. I cannot help to think he was very shallow for an antagonist.

Other than him and Momoka, I thought all the characters were well-rounded, and easy to sympathise with. Though, I still don't know why Kanba was blaming the world for Himari's condition, nor why Himari ended up that way and why they considered it as punishment.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I still don't know why Kanba was blaming the world for Himari's condition, nor why Himari ended up that way and why they considered it as punishment.

I think I have an answer to that (well, an interpretation), but it'll take a really long post to explain. I'll post something later.

[Setsuryuu]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I'd really like some OVA with backstory for Sanetoshi, or simply any backstory. I'd take it even if it came on a character material. I cannot help to think he was very shallow for an antagonist.

Other than him and Momoka, I thought all the characters were well-rounded, and easy to sympathise with. Though, I still don't know why Kanba was blaming the world for Himari's condition, nor why Himari ended up that way and why they considered it as punishment.

It's more like a question of "Fate". You know when bad things happen and people say "oh God why you allowed that". So, in a more japanese way they would think "it happened because it was fate, and that's how the world works, with fate" and then Kanba got mad and thinks "no Fate, no World, I don't accept this and I will fight you and destroy you all".

But that part of destroying the world for Himari makes more sense because Sanetoshi could indeed still magically save her.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Dang that was quite the bomb. I honestly didn't expect much coming into this episode - in fact, I had a "meh" expression when I started it because I saw no way out of it that I would like that didn't involve Deus Ex Machina and I am not a fan of such endings in any case. But holy god. Given how things had gone, this is just about the perfect ending for the series, all things considered.

Just the episode deserved all marks it could get. Everything was perfect. Absolutely perfect. I am speechless and I rarely get like this.

As a whole, the series had some pacing issues imo and it felt a bit too misleading and / or vague at points but it was an excellent series nonetheless.

Full marks for the finale and a very deserved 9 out of 10 for the show.

[jorez]

Fate. I hate that word, and this show has given me more proof to continue to hate it.

Good ending. 7/10

[Sphire]

Originally Posted by YayPepsi

I don't think Shouma would have been able to save Himari on his own, for the same reason Kanba wasn't able to save Himari on his own. They both only had half of Kanba'a apple. In order for the apple to be whole again, Shouma had to give back his half, and then Kanba gave the whole thing to Himari to save her.

But didn't Kanba already give his remaining half to Himari before then? In one of those 'survival strategy' moments? It's what I was assuming.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sphire

But didn't Kanba already give his remaining half to Himari before then? In one of those 'survival strategy' moments? It's what I was assuming.

But she gave it back to him in episode 22.

Although, don't forget all this is just symbolic. Even Himari's "terminal illness" is just a freaking metaphor. The point here was about Shouma finally accepting what Kanba was trying to do and supporting him on it. Remember that until Ringo got on the train Shouma was still trying to stop Kanba (which was useless), but when Ringo gets there she initiated a chain reaction that ended up with Shouma accenting Kanba's "wish" and basically telling him "OK, do what you have to do, I've got your back"...

And that did the metaphorical trick. That's all that was need to begin with.

On another note, I'm still collecting my thoughts for an overall post about this series. I'll probably post it tomorrow. I want to forget about penguins already

[Kirarakim]

I don't think Shouma was ever really against what Kanba wanted to do to save Himari (although I guess I could see Shouma not wanting Kanba to sacrifice himself, I don't think Shouma would be against doing the same himself). I do think he was against Kanba working for Sanetoshi. I feel Shouma & Himari were able to get through to Kanba and together they saved Himari.

Although admittedly I am not really sure why they couldn't have done it all earlier, unless Shouma didn't realize that was the Penguindrum before. Of course he was mislead (like we were) thinking it was the diary.


Actually looking back I think the problem was in both Shouma & Kanba. They always needed to work together as a family but Kanba was too busy thinking he had to do everything himself & Shouma would always step aside and let Kanba take on everything and was too afraid to ask Kanba if he was doing anything dangerous.

It took Himari to get through to both of them (but I believe the series made it clear that was usually the case).

[Archon_Wing]

"You've got to be shitting me"

But it's Ringo! She's amazing!

Man, Himari's naked so much...

Anyhow, the final survival strategy proved to be suitable, as we see this is actually Himari even with the penguin hat. I liked the glass analogy, showing the minor scratches and scars of life slowly picking them apart, even though it was kinda weird.

But miracles don't come easily, and thus Shouma and Kanba had to throw away this existence that was never meant to be to make it happen.

So we only have Ringo and Himari hanging around, but if fate has its way, the new world will have a reuniting soon enough.

But probably not soon enough.

10/10 Finale. Thanks peguindrum for 24 episodes of lols

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't think Shouma was ever really against what Kanba wanted to do to save Himari (although I guess I could see Shouma not wanting Kanba to sacrifice himself, I don't think Shouma would be against doing the same himself).

All the opposite. Shouma wouldn't have sacrificed for Himari at all, at least not until the last episode, when he changed. This was shown through his penguin, which was always getting in his way every time he tried to be the hero. On the inside, Shouma didn't want any of it.

And it make sense too, since the one who really wished to live (and die) solely for Himari's sake was Kanba. That's why Kanba kept repeating the phrase "Himari no tame ni" (everything is for Himari's sake).

Shouma would tell himself the same: "Himari no tame ni". But he never truly felt it. And in episode 8 Ringo actually called him on this, and she was right.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Shouma never cared about Himari. But for the most part he was just following on his brother. Shouma gives a few examples of this in the last episode: it was Kanba who had the idea of painting the house, and it was also Kanba who made a point of doing everything they could to make sure Himari would always smile. And Shouma, who didn't have any strong desire of his own, ended up following his brother on his wish to make Himari happy.

IMO Shouma is the one who changed the most in the last episode. When he first appears on the train he just wants to stop Kanba. But then Ringo gets there, and her resolution to save Himari at the cost of her life really shake Shouma's ground. Here was this girl who wasn't even family, and yet her desire to save his sister was stronger than his own.

This realization gives Shouma the courage to face his past, and only then he begins to understand the depth of Kanba's desire to save Himari. So he chooses to trust Kanba. He bets on Kanba's wish of protecting Himari in the same way that Ringo bets on the Double-H line.

By fully trusting him for the first time (the very very first time), Shouma makes Kanba see the part of himself that he had forgotten, the part of him that was pure light. That's what gives Kanba the means to save Himari, and also what redeems him.

This is why I said that all that was needed to save the day was for Shouma to really accept Kanba's "wish" and basically tell him "OK, do what you have to do, I've got your back". Basically, Shouma just needed to believe in his bro, and that changed everything.

[Kirarakim]

Well even if this is all true and Shouma didn't want to sacrifice himself for Himari (and I am not sure I entirely agree but I don't entirely disagree either). I do think Shouma's Penguin was leading him to Ringo but not necessarily leading him away from Himari (who is still his sister) Just trying to show Shouma there was someone there specifically for him.



I don't think Shouma was against the idea of sacrifice. You can say he was willing to sacrifice himself for Ringo's sake when he jumped in front of the car. And I think even pushing everyone away because he thought it was better for them was Shouma's idea of sacrifice (although in that sense he was wrong).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't think Shouma was ever really against what Kanba wanted to do to save Himari (although I guess I could see Shouma not wanting Kanba to sacrifice himself, I don't think Shouma would be against doing the same himself).

Shouma was definitely against Kanba doing anything morally questionable to try to save Himari. In the first few episodes, you had two or three of these short little debates between Shouma and Kanba revolving around precisely this disagreement. Remember when Kanba used Penguins No. 1 and 2 to find, follow, and spy on Ringo, way back during the 2nd/3rd Episode or so? Shouma was against that, while Kanba was for it since he saw it as a necessary step in saving Himari (based on what the PotC had told them).

I definitely think that Shouma cared about Himari, but he wasn't willing to get his hands dirty anywhere near as much as Kanba was willing to. Would Shouma have traded his own life to save Himari's, though? I don't know. By Episode 24, the answer is a "yes", but I don't know if it was always true.

There's no question, however, that Shouma was decidedly not comfortable with many of the methods that Kanba engaged in to try to save Himari.