The General Discussion of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Othello~]

Originally Posted by keri

I'm almost positive that some of these things, if not all, will be addressed in book 10, or maybe even 11. We really don't know that much about her yet, and the problem is compounded by the split narrative, I'm sure.

Yeah, that's another reason why I hate waiting for the next book to come out .

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by B2-Lancer

I'm just trying to wrap my arms around Haruhi's world, but one of the things I found interesting with Yuki Nagato/The Data Entities is the remark she made about her/their reluctance to alter the weather during the baseball game episode. One must wonder just why do they really care how her slight weather modifications (which really would've helped things out in that episode) would affect someplace in a few hundred years? Even if it's mere "altruism", why bother mind the welfare of us relative amoebas? Does this imply that they believe Haurhi's "God reign" is pretty much a permanent status quo so they try not to mess with her creations (which says much about how much they'll ever glean of her reality generating power to create their own universe) or that there's even a greater "reality" beyond her that must be respected and cared for?

Notice that Yuki never indicated just how severe the long-term weather effects would be--for all we know, in just a few months the effects could decay to a level that mere humans could not even detect, much less care about. I think that she was using it as an excuse to talk Kyon out of trying to get the game canceled because she, like Koizumi, believed that Haruhi would react adversely to being unable to complete the game.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

I think that she was using it as an excuse to talk Kyon out of trying to get the game canceled because she, like Koizumi, believed that Haruhi would react adversely to being unable to complete the game.

Has Yuki ever used that kind of subtlety before? It just doesn't seem like her.

[Othello~]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Has Yuki ever used that kind of subtlety before? It just doesn't seem like her.

She probably wants to get data or something from the baseball game. With that as an explaination, it seems very much like her (to collect data from Haruhi Suzumiya has been the only thing she's really "cared" about).

[Gamer_2k4]

I'm sure she does want data, but the question remains. Isn't Yuki one to say what she wants or to not say anything at all?

[ijuinkun]

Recall that Yuki's mission is to interfere with Haruhi's actions as little as possible while collecting data. As such, she would be reluctant to force the cancellation of Haruhi's baseball game unless Kyon insisted upon it. Note that she advised against changing the weather, but still implied that she would be willing to do it if he insisted.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Othello~

I sort of wonder this too . . . (spoilers for book nine)

Spoiler for spoilers:

What doesn't really make sense to me is when other-god lost her powers. Did Haruhi lend them to her and decided to take them back or did Haruhi truly steal them from her? Haruhi's importance seems really suspicious to me at least maybe only Kozumi's side of the story.

In reality, did the other two factions treat her with importance that suggested that she was the only one to have such ability? Notice how Kozumi was the only one who never hinted towards the other espers agendas.

Were they hiding Sasaki's importance from Kyon on purpose? Why would they do that?

Sasaki had no powers anymore, why wouldn't they tell him of this when they were introducing Haruhi and whatnot?

Pretty confusing . . .

Spoiler for spoiler:

Keep in mind that we don't know how much, if any, of what the other faction says about Sasaki is the truth. She may never have had powers in the first place. The only "proof" we get, Kyouko's guided tour of Sasaki's "closed space", alost begs to be picked apart as an obvious mixture of incongruity and showing Kyon what he wants to see...

Even if it is true, there's no reason to suspect that Itsuki's Organization or Mikuru's time travelers ever even knew about Sasaki. They both share Haruhi's "advent" (for lack of a better term) as the real moment of their groups' genesis, as it created the time quake that shut off travel before 4ya, and granted powers to Itsuki's crop of espers. From an outside pespective, at least, Sasaki is not directly related to that event, if she is at all...

Personally, I think Sasaki is a patsy, being used because she's an old (girl)friend of Kyon, who is inarguably the key to Haruhi.

[ijuinkun]

My personal theory is that Haruhi desired an arch-rival, and so her power took Kyon's previous girlfriend (i.e. the strongest existing rival for his heart outside of the SOS-dan), and built her into an anti-Haruhi, complete with her own esper, time-traveler, and alien factions. Haruhi's subconscious probably looks forward to defeating her "evil twin" in a battle of supposed equals.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

My personal theory is that Haruhi desired an arch-rival, and so her power took Kyon's previous girlfriend (i.e. the strongest existing rival for his heart outside of the SOS-dan), and built her into an anti-Haruhi, complete with her own esper, time-traveler, and alien factions. Haruhi's subconscious probably looks forward to defeating her "evil twin" in a battle of supposed equals.

There's that possibility as well. I think I remember when that one was first brought up on these forums...

[Othello~]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

My personal theory is that Haruhi desired an arch-rival, and so her power took Kyon's previous girlfriend (i.e. the strongest existing rival for his heart outside of the SOS-dan), and built her into an anti-Haruhi, complete with her own esper, time-traveler, and alien factions. Haruhi's subconscious probably looks forward to defeating her "evil twin" in a battle of supposed equals.

Spoiler for stuff:

I agree with you on some points but I sort of wonder . . . didn't she already have a rival? Of course, not a rival of Kyon's love but wasn't the student council president supposed to distract Haruhi from thoughts of a possible rival appearing? Why would Kozumi's orgainzation want to distract Haruhi with the President if there was no "evil rival" that was a threat in the first place? And what gave Haruhi the idea to have a rival to Kyon's affection? Wasn't Asahina enough?

This is almost like her wishing for a murderer to appear out of thin air. She doesn't want harm to anyone else and yet she wants a rival to harm herself ?

And didn't Kyon write that failed love story? Haruhi was looking for a rival to contend with in Kyon's writing and yet he didn't write one for her at all . . .

Unless . . . the real rival isn't Sasaki at all? Instead it's that girl who's name starts with an M that I've forgotten . If you remember correctly, in the other world there's this freshmen with a senpai fetish. What if Haruhi is simply confused on who the rival truly is . Wow, that was a lot .

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Othello~

Spoiler for stuff:

I agree with you on some points but I sort of wonder . . . didn't she already have a rival? Of course, not a rival of Kyon's love but wasn't the student council president supposed to distract Haruhi from thoughts of a possible rival appearing? Why would Kozumi's orgainzation want to distract Haruhi with the President if there was no "evil rival" that was a threat in the first place? And what gave Haruhi the idea to have a rival to Kyon's affection? Wasn't Asahina enough?

This is almost like her wishing for a murderer to appear out of thin air. She doesn't want harm to anyone else and yet she wants a rival to harm herself ?

And didn't Kyon write that failed love story? Haruhi was looking for a rival to contend with in Kyon's writing and yet he didn't write one for her at all . . .

Unless . . . the real rival isn't Sasaki at all? Instead it's that girl who's name starts with an M that I've forgotten . If you remember correctly, in the other world there's this freshmen with a senpai fetish. What if Haruhi is simply confused on who the rival truly is . Wow, that was a lot .

Spoiler for Reply:

Haruhi probably found it boring that there was not enough competition for Kyon's affection so she made Kyon's previous girlfriend her rival

[Guernsey]

Why do fans classify haruhi as a god when there more to it than that?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Why do fans classify haruhi as a god when there more to it than that?

Basically because Haruhi can do whatever she likes, she can repeat time (Endless Eight) make things happen (Murder Case) very good at everything she does (Baseball, Athletics) has people who follow her (Time Travelers, Espers, Aliens) many more for fans to think of her as a god

[Ithekro]

Because it is fun?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Because it is fun?

There is also that

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Why do fans classify haruhi as a god when there more to it than that?

It might...just might...have something to do with people in the actual series calling her a god. That and the whole "doing things that only a god could do" stuff previously mentioned...

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by Othello~

Spoiler for stuff:

I agree with you on some points but I sort of wonder . . . didn't she already have a rival? Of course, not a rival of Kyon's love but wasn't the student council president supposed to distract Haruhi from thoughts of a possible rival appearing? Why would Kozumi's orgainzation want to distract Haruhi with the President if there was no "evil rival" that was a threat in the first place? And what gave Haruhi the idea to have a rival to Kyon's affection? Wasn't Asahina enough?

This is almost like her wishing for a murderer to appear out of thin air. She doesn't want harm to anyone else and yet she wants a rival to harm herself ?

And didn't Kyon write that failed love story? Haruhi was looking for a rival to contend with in Kyon's writing and yet he didn't write one for her at all . . .

Unless . . . the real rival isn't Sasaki at all? Instead it's that girl who's name starts with an M that I've forgotten . If you remember correctly, in the other world there's this freshmen with a senpai fetish. What if Haruhi is simply confused on who the rival truly is . Wow, that was a lot .

I think that she wants the glory/ego boost that comes from beating somebody who might actually stand a chance against her--a battle of "equals". She may want to feel like the underdog sometimes, just so that she can come up from behind and win (e.g. winning in the last inning in the baseball game).

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Why do fans classify haruhi as a god when there more to it than that?

It's because "god" is the simplest way to refer to what Haruhi is capable of. Mikuru's description of her is little more than "she keeps us from going more than three years in the past," which doesn't foster especially useful descriptors for Haruhi. Yuki calls Haruhi the potential for evolution because of her ability to create data (and arguably the power of true creation is solely within the domain of the divine). Itsuki thinks that the world is but a dream of Haruhi's and consequently confirms my point above that the creation and destruction associated with that explanation are abilities found only in a god.

The most relevant way of describing Haruhi is as someone one step above Yuki (a person who Kyon routinely refers to as "Great Goddess Nagato"). At any rate, while you say there's so much more to Haruhi than "god," the truth is that it all boils down to his: Haruhi can alter the world at will. How else would you describe such a being?

--

I found something rather interesting while looking up the actual descriptions of Haruhi in the first novel. Mikuru gives the following account of the structure of time:

"Even if I attempted to change history in this age it would not affect the future, because there is no continuity between time frames. Everything would stay in this temporal plane."

Isn't this at odds with the many, many instances of people going back in time and doing something that totally affects the future? We don't really need to look any farther than Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, where we find out that the only reason Haruhi starts the SOS Brigade is because Kyon traveled back in time (using Mikuru's methods!) and influenced her to go to North High. Additionally, the whole movie is predicated on time travel affecting the future, and I remember several cases in other novels where people go back in time to either cause something to happen or prevent something from happening.

So what's the deal here? Am I misunderstanding the description Mikuru gives? Is she wrong/mistaken/misleading? Is there just a huge break in continuity? What gives?

[Ithekro]

Easy answer is: Haruhi breaks the rules of time travel.

Harder explaination? Mikuru may be correct, but her description is likely extremely simplistic and missing pieces that are difficult to explain (to Kyon). In each time travel instance, the time travelers are still uneffected by the time travel and the future seems uneffected by the time travel. Mikuru (BIG) is there in the past both times Kyon goes there as if nothing happened. In the "second" case, if things from the "present" are correct, Mikuru (BIG) shouldn't exist anymore, yet she does, because she was there before and yet the time plane was not effected by the changes (or so it seems).

However Mikuru's people still seem to steer Kyon to get things done (they don't do things themselves in the past). This is where one questions how things happen in the future. Are these things needed to make sure Mikuru's time exists, or are they done because with Haruhi (via Kyon) involved, it makes it so the time travelers need to make sure things happen. Either because, Haruhi breaks the rules, or because Haruhi wants them to do something or else their would be no reason for the time travelers to even be hanging around (and thus make Mikuru even more useless than she already is).

[Joe4evr]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

So what's the deal here? Am I misunderstanding the description Mikuru gives? Is she wrong/mistaken/misleading? Is there just a huge break in continuity? What gives?

Perhaps Mikuru was talking about it being a Stable Time Loop. Even if you go back in time, you couldn't really change anything since, from the linear point of view, you were already there. See volume 7 for example.