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Old 2023-02-04, 07:40   Link #4421
Voldigoad
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Join Date: Jul 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto1 View Post
I just reviewed the first 3 volumes and you sir are right, (I only did a search by word thou, I didn't read the volumes again, it would be torture) you are right, the word wise gods is present, however there is no mention of the dragon king or rules, i shall fix my previous post, thank you.


PD: It just occurred to me that when I have a child, as a punishment I'm going to force him to read the first volumes and the last ones, they are disgusting, They are a torture to the intellect and an offense to literature.
In vol 2, we knew that great spirits are an object of worship for the seirei no tami ppl and they dissappeared in divine war, seventh wise god was also mentioned at that time

In vol 3, Ruri told Rio about the story of the dragon king(it was mentioned in vol 3 as Ryou, which is the jp term for dragon king) and how badly yagumo people treated him, which was again mentioned by sora in vol 21 as something that was made up by her since she hated the fact that was getting blamed by everyone thanks to the rules.

across vol 1-20, No one other than Reiss knew about transcendentals(he mentioned it when taking to nidoll) and awakened heroes, which indicate the existance of rules. and people only knew about transcendentals(not the term tho) through the records like when Francois looks at the records when Rio asks him about divine beast

P/s:
do correct me If I missed some points or if some are wrong.

Also, about the pope thing
I will summarise what we know about Reiss and the holy kingdom so far:

-Reiss has knowledge of the divine war and also about transcendentals
-Beltrum and Rubia was a puppet for Reiss and he has a friendly relation to Proxia kingdom
-Reiss is not human
-Rules didnt affect that guy
-Reiss seem to be connected to the Wise gods according to Vol 23(I didnt reach that part yet, it was a spoiler I saw on discord), since he knew about the girl from the labyrith

now for Holy kingdom of armada:
-It was built after Dragon king defeated the demons that were overrunning stharl region
-The Labyrith in the kingdom were the place the demons started coming from(everyone[readers] thought that place was just a wasteland after the war)
-The labyrith has many monsters and demons that Reiss likes to use to annoy the cast with before vol 20
-It has the most influence in stharl region
these 4 points are enough for the country to catch Reiss's interest so him ruling it for his plans isnt much to think about

As far as I can see, Reiss is a puzzle the author created, he gives us some clues bit by bit, we just try to theorise his identity until author ully reveals it

existance of another country comes as no big surprise since we never knew about the world that much, I mean, if this is an asspull, many series are an asspull if they introduce a new country sometime later(eventho the country had no revelance to the plot before the said volume)

Last edited by Voldigoad; 2023-02-04 at 08:32.
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Old 2023-02-04, 11:25   Link #4422
nekodamashii
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Join Date: Nov 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldigoad View Post
In vol 2, we knew that great spirits are an object of worship for the seirei no tami ppl and they dissappeared in divine war, seventh wise god was also mentioned at that time

In vol 3, Ruri told Rio about the story of the dragon king(it was mentioned in vol 3 as Ryou, which is the jp term for dragon king) and how badly yagumo people treated him, which was again mentioned by sora in vol 21 as something that was made up by her since she hated the fact that was getting blamed by everyone thanks to the rules.

across vol 1-20, No one other than Reiss knew about transcendentals(he mentioned it when taking to nidoll) and awakened heroes, which indicate the existance of rules. and people only knew about transcendentals(not the term tho) through the records like when Francois looks at the records when Rio asks him about divine beast

P/s:
do correct me If I missed some points or if some are wrong.

Also, about the pope thing
I will summarise what we know about Reiss and the holy kingdom so far:

-Reiss has knowledge of the divine war and also about transcendentals
-Beltrum and Rubia was a puppet for Reiss and he has a friendly relation to Proxia kingdom
-Reiss is not human
-Rules didnt affect that guy
-Reiss seem to be connected to the Wise gods according to Vol 23(I didnt reach that part yet, it was a spoiler I saw on discord), since he knew about the girl from the labyrith

now for Holy kingdom of armada:
-It was built after Dragon king defeated the demons that were overrunning stharl region
-The Labyrith in the kingdom were the place the demons started coming from(everyone[readers] thought that place was just a wasteland after the war)
-The labyrith has many monsters and demons that Reiss likes to use to annoy the cast with before vol 20
-It has the most influence in stharl region
these 4 points are enough for the country to catch Reiss's interest so him ruling it for his plans isnt much to think about

As far as I can see, Reiss is a puzzle the author created, he gives us some clues bit by bit, we just try to theorise his identity until author ully reveals it

existance of another country comes as no big surprise since we never knew about the world that much, I mean, if this is an asspull, many series are an asspull if they introduce a new country sometime later(eventho the country had no revelance to the plot before the said volume)



If I'm to add one thing about Reiss and Nidol; in vol 14 the 2 talked about the power levels of transcendentals, awakened heroes, Rio + Aishia and themselves (Nidol and Reiss) when unsealed

there is also how the loli in the labyrinth said that "Sora is a familiar; a being that is beyond reason." Then when Reiss came she was not interested in him. It's very weak as reasoning but maybe neither she nor Reiss are familiars. The closest thing to Reiss in how the rules affect them may be Celia right now, not that that says much.
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Old 2023-02-04, 12:41   Link #4423
DragonOsman
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Location: Al Khobar, Saudi Arabia
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@Nekodamashii and @others asking about how come people know about the Six Wise Gods: It's because information about them is in the records. Just like how Rio is written about in Galarc's records under the name "Haruto". The records that the Spirit Folk have access to also include information on the 7th Wise God, of course.

So yeah, people don't really remember or know anything about the Six Wise Gods or Lina aside from what they've read in their Scripture and other lore about them.

And "Ryuo" was the Dragon King's name. Sora said so in reply to Rio asking her what his name was. That's why the Dragon King's name in the Yagumo Region's legend which she spread is also Ryuo. It just so happens that that also seems similar to the Japanese term for "Dragon King".
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Old 2023-02-05, 01:07   Link #4424
nekodamashii
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Originally Posted by DragonOsman View Post
@Nekodamashii and @others asking about how come people know about the Six Wise Gods: It's because information about them is in the records. Just like how Rio is written about in Galarc's records under the name "Haruto". The records that the Spirit Folk have access to also include information on the 7th Wise God, of course.

So yeah, people don't really remember or know anything about the Six Wise Gods or Lina aside from what they've read in their Scripture and other lore about them.

And "Ryuo" was the Dragon King's name. Sora said so in reply to Rio asking her what his name was. That's why the Dragon King's name in the Yagumo Region's legend which she spread is also Ryuo. It just so happens that that also seems similar to the Japanese term for "Dragon King".
That's not my point. when the mansion people discussed Rio, everyone forgot about him in minutes, now they need to read about him again so they know who he is and even then they'll forget again in a few minutes. If that's how the rules work then what about the 7 wise and 6 spirits, people should be forgetting about them every time they read about them in records but the whole world clearly remembers.
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Old 2023-02-05, 06:16   Link #4425
nik45
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Originally Posted by nekodamashii View Post
That's not my point. when the mansion people discussed Rio, everyone forgot about him in minutes, now they need to read about him again so they know who he is and even then they'll forget again in a few minutes. If that's how the rules work then what about the 7 wise and 6 spirits, people should be forgetting about them every time they read about them in records but the whole world clearly remembers.
Its because even if they are talking about them they dont know the WGs, GSs personally. They dont know personal information about how they look, where they live which can help them point out that this X person is WG or GS. Whereas thats not the case with Rio. Girls personally know how Rio looks, what he likes etc that is they know his personal characteristics which can be used to pin point him hence rules wipe their memory off.
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Old 2023-02-05, 16:58   Link #4426
DragonOsman
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^Exactly this. With the Wise Gods or the Great Spirits, there's nothing to make them forget about. With Rio there is.
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Old 2023-02-05, 18:47   Link #4427
Xan2341
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Originally Posted by nekodamashii View Post
That's not my point. when the mansion people discussed Rio, everyone forgot about him in minutes, now they need to read about him again so they know who he is and even then they'll forget again in a few minutes. If that's how the rules work then what about the 7 wise and 6 spirits, people should be forgetting about them every time they read about them in records but the whole world clearly remembers.
The people in the mansion only forgot due to Charlotte. Discussing Haruto as an abstract is fine. Discussing the wise gods, spirits, as abstract is fine. What isn't fine is linking to the actual transcendent. In this case Charlotte was able to tell of Haruto's feats, no problem. Everyone at this point just nodded along. Miharu discussing Earth Haruto is also fine. Different person. Charlotte linking everything together, that Haruto from Earth reincarnated into the ones in their records and everyone forgot about him, violation, as Haruto is no longer an abstract just written down on some record, but a link to him as an individual. The wipe only erased that part of the conversation, everyone was reset back to when Charlotte was just discussing Haruto's feats from written records.
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Old Yesterday, 01:29   Link #4428
nekodamashii
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Originally Posted by nik45 View Post
Its because even if they are talking about them they dont know the WGs, GSs personally. They dont know personal information about how they look, where they live which can help them point out that this X person is WG or GS. Whereas thats not the case with Rio. Girls personally know how Rio looks, what he likes etc that is they know his personal characteristics which can be used to pin point him hence rules wipe their memory off.
That makes sense. Basically, assuming I got it right, we can talk about some character in a book no problem, they are just an imaginary character, but when we start linking them to to an actual person, they stop being imaginary, they become another real person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xan2341 View Post
The people in the mansion only forgot due to Charlotte. Discussing Haruto as an abstract is fine. Discussing the wise gods, spirits, as abstract is fine. What isn't fine is linking to the actual transcendent. In this case Charlotte was able to tell of Haruto's feats, no problem. Everyone at this point just nodded along. Miharu discussing Earth Haruto is also fine. Different person. Charlotte linking everything together, that Haruto from Earth reincarnated into the ones in their records and everyone forgot about him, violation, as Haruto is no longer an abstract just written down on some record, but a link to him as an individual. The wipe only erased that part of the conversation, everyone was reset back to when Charlotte was just discussing Haruto's feats from written records.
Makes sense too, but that would mean the difference is in whether you know you forgot about the transcendent or not, as in the rules activate again when you realize you forgot. But that would result in a contradiction, as we already know a transcendental has a weak presence and is forgotten soon after interacting with mortals, they don't stay in people minds so mansion people shouldn't have even gotten to thinking about reading this dude's records, which the author shrugged off as "because they have strong feeling for him", ok but where did those feeling go in the last 2 vols, all that remained is their "have we met before" when they encounter my boy. Dude should start his own novel "it's not bad being a transcendental, all the pretty girls try to flirt with me with an overused pickup line."

Hmm, so I guess they had strong feelings which made them keep thinking until the rules did a hard activation due to their talk about him. The rules activated and made him forgotten/not remain in their minds after their investigative talk, they never thought of him again because as Sora said "as long as you're thinking about the transcendental, no problem. The moment your mind thinks of something else, you forget the transcendental." It adds up, it actually adds up, pretty sure the 6 months gap between vols is for the author to strategize like a sun tzu, no other way for all the details to add up. Tho I think he's treading on thin ice with the rules thing, it's very easy to make plot holes, the more he writes the more the possibility o messing up. Geez, and some people have the audacity to claim author is improvising.
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Old Yesterday, 05:22   Link #4429
jagt
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Originally Posted by nekodamashii View Post
That makes sense. Basically, assuming I got it right, we can talk about some character in a book no problem, they are just an imaginary character, but when we start linking them to to an actual person, they stop being imaginary, they become another real person.



Makes sense too, but that would mean the difference is in whether you know you forgot about the transcendent or not, as in the rules activate again when you realize you forgot. But that would result in a contradiction, as we already know a transcendental has a weak presence and is forgotten soon after interacting with mortals, they don't stay in people minds so mansion people shouldn't have even gotten to thinking about reading this dude's records, which the author shrugged off as "because they have strong feeling for him", ok but where did those feeling go in the last 2 vols, all that remained is their "have we met before" when they encounter my boy. Dude should start his own novel "it's not bad being a transcendental, all the pretty girls try to flirt with me with an overused pickup line."

Hmm, so I guess they had strong feelings which made them keep thinking until the rules did a hard activation due to their talk about him. The rules activated and made him forgotten/not remain in their minds after their investigative talk, they never thought of him again because as Sora said "as long as you're thinking about the transcendental, no problem. The moment your mind thinks of something else, you forget the transcendental." It adds up, it actually adds up, pretty sure the 6 months gap between vols is for the author to strategize like a sun tzu, no other way for all the details to add up. Tho I think he's treading on thin ice with the rules thing, it's very easy to make plot holes, the more he writes the more the possibility o messing up. Geez, and some people have the audacity to claim author is improvising.
They didn't decide to read the records about Rio because of their feelings, Charlotte was planning on registering the mansion to Satsuki's name and watching the documents she realized the mansion was already owned by an honoray kngiht called Haruto Amakawa, then she began to investigate the man because she couldn't imagine herself and everyone else living in someone's mansion just because. And the author already said that the longer gap between books was because he was busy taking care of anime related stuff.
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Old Yesterday, 05:36   Link #4430
nekodamashii
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They didn't decide to read the records about Rio because of their feelings, Charlotte was planning on registering the mansion to Satsuki's name and watching the documents she realized the mansion was already owned by an honoray kngiht called Haruto Amakawa, then she began to investigate the man because she couldn't imagine herself and everyone else living in someone's mansion just because. And the author already said that the longer gap between books was because he was busy taking care of anime related stuff.



Vol 21 chapter 5. Right at the beginning Charlotte prefaced the meeting by saying "Ever since we've returned to the capital, I've been investigating the strange sense of loss and discomfort that has been plaguing all of us." Then she continued “As a result, I’ve found things that provide answers, and things that raise more questions. Today, I’d like to discuss these things with everyone and hear your thoughts, which is why I’ve invited Father and arranged this meeting.” Later on she adds “The owner of this mansion. Father and I believed we had prepared this mansion as a residence for Lady Satsuki’s friends, but the documents we have say that this place was bestowed upon a certain honorary knight. The records we have of his achievements are outrageous—before I give you his name, I’d like to read those records first. It may get a little long, so bear with me...” They weren't going to register the mansion to Satsuki, as the rules already changed their memories to: you have given this mansion to Satsuki, changing Satsuki for Rio.
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Old Yesterday, 13:28   Link #4431
Marco
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May I ask what's the other way of bringing out a hero's power? Aside from training their spirit arts.

Is it dying?
Maybe death has the effect of removing a limit or widening it by forcing the use of more power in order to repair their bodies.
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Old Yesterday, 14:05   Link #4432
nekodamashii
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Originally Posted by Marco View Post
May I ask what's the other way of bringing out a hero's power? Aside from training their spirit arts.

Is it dying?
Maybe death has the effect of removing a limit or widening it by forcing the use of more power in order to repair their bodies.

We know from Erika that dying is the key to awakening a hero, training them in spirit arts does make them stronger but the power they attain after awakening is in a whole different league. As you're guessing awakening allows the heroes to reach higher levels of assimilation with the source of their powers; the great spirits, the level of spirits arts they can use just different, Erika made an earth tsunami that leveled an entire town or castle, they can also summon something called divine beast and they get the chance to only once step into the realm of transcendentals, tho it's through the assimilation level raising too much and the great spirit taking control, its only once because the hero system works in a way that makes the hero die after transcending. Please someone correct me if I got something wrong.
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Old Today, 13:34   Link #4433
DragonOsman
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The hero system is set up to try to protect the hero. That's why the assimilation rate is kept low. If I understood correctly, the hero dying isn't directly because of how the system itself is set up but rather because a normal human can't handle that much power. Rio's safe because he's the reincarnation of a Transcendental and thus has divinity plus Aishia protected him through assimilation--the Great Spirits, when taking control, likely don't care about that part because they're pissed off at the Wise Gods for betraying them and sealing them away for the hero system.

The official translation messed that part up. If you read the detailed synopsis at the Wiki, you'll be able to get it.

About the rules. Sora said that as long as a normal human is still in contact with the Transcendental, that human would still be able to remember interacting with them because they still have an impression of that Transcendental. But the moment it's been long enough with no interaction, the human would forget the interaction altogether.

And yeah, thinking about the Transcendental as someone mentioned in records and myths won't make you forget, but someone who already knew that Transcendental before the memory wipe making the connection and going, "Oh, that's who!" would immediately forget.
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Old Today, 14:12   Link #4434
jagt
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Originally Posted by DragonOsman View Post
The hero system is set up to try to protect the hero. That's why the assimilation rate is kept low. If I understood correctly, the hero dying isn't directly because of how the system itself is set up but rather because a normal human can't handle that much power. Rio's safe because he's the reincarnation of a Transcendental and thus has divinity plus Aishia protected him through assimilation--the Great Spirits, when taking control, likely don't care about that part because they're pissed off at the Wise Gods for betraying them and sealing them away for the hero system.

The official translation messed that part up. If you read the detailed synopsis at the Wiki, you'll be able to get it.

About the rules. Sora said that as long as a normal human is still in contact with the Transcendental, that human would still be able to remember interacting with them because they still have an impression of that Transcendental. But the moment it's been long enough with no interaction, the human would forget the interaction altogether.

And yeah, thinking about the Transcendental as someone mentioned in records and myths won't make you forget, but someone who already knew that Transcendental before the memory wipe making the connection and going, "Oh, that's who!" would immediately forget.
The hero system doesn't keep the assimilation degree low for the heroes' sake but for not letting the great spirits take control of the heroes if it rises too much. Erika is already proof more than enough that suffering a mortal wound is the key for a hero to awaken/remove his limiter. The heroes, far from being protected, totally look like just consumable time bombs set to erase those who know of them alongside their explosion the moment they run out of use, at least that's the impression I got from seeing weak civilians turned into heroes just for having that position forcing them into fighting thousands of monsters, suffer some mortal wound during any of their battles, awakening, losing control of themselves at any other battle, being forgotten at same time that the great spirits inside them use their authority for erasing both allies and enemies, and finally go back to the beginning of the loop once the next hero summoned after the death of the previous one. How the records of previous heroes are said to give descriptions of heroes so dispair among them is also kind of a proof that there were a lot of different heroes.
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Old Today, 14:43   Link #4435
DragonOsman
Dragon King
 
 
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Not all past heroes both awakened and reached a too-high rate of assimilation, in that case, otherwise the records wouldn't be there (I'm thinking the mortals around them would've probably already forgotten them before writing the info down, with maybe some exceptions).
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Old Today, 15:53   Link #4436
jagt
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Originally Posted by DragonOsman View Post
Not all past heroes both awakened and reached a too-high rate of assimilation, in that case, otherwise the records wouldn't be there (I'm thinking the mortals around them would've probably already forgotten them before writing the info down, with maybe some exceptions).
There wouldn't be records of the battle where they were forgotten, but there shouldn't be any problem with the records of battles previous to that one, the records of the heroes going to the battles where they would be forgotten also would remain.
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