Rebuild of Evangelion: Final Movie [Shin Evangelion Gekijouban:| |]

[Wheeljack83]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

It's just funny to think about after seeing 4.0.


From the polarizing reactions I've seen to 4.0, I'd say he's done a great job at it.

He spends about a good chunk of the movie doing slice of life moe Rei Ayanami. Another good chunk is objectifying Mari who sticks out in this franchise like a sore thumb. She doesn't fit in this whole Evangelion franchise. It's like they took a character out of a fan service-y, feel good mecha anime and stuck her into Eva.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by stray

That was like... the 80s and 90s. At this point he's the "reboot" guy. Cutie Honey, Godzilla, Ultraman, Kamen Rider, and I guess just an influencer for Gridman, because god forbid he would work with an IP that came out after he graduated high school.

It would be nice to see him move past 1979 someday... there's some 80s series that could use a reboot, too.

Yes, Gainax reached their peak during 80s & 90s thanks in large part to Anno. After the 90s, the Gainax company falling on hard times due to bad & corrupt upper management, not because of Anno. That's why Anno left & took Evangelion with him so that he can do more with it. I don't know about the other Gainax IPs.

From my observation reading reviews & impressions from the net, the movie is generally well-received by the majority of viewers. So I don't know about polarizing. Of course, there are always the usual focal haters who always haunt this kind of movie. No need to look far, we can already see a couple posters in this thread who can't seem to stop bashing Anno & the movie.

Heck, I think 3.0 was a lot more polarizing than Thrice Upon a Time.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

After the 90s, the Gainax company falling on hard times due to bad & corrupt upper management, not because of Anno.

I don't know if I'd call Gurren Lagann and Panty and Stocking "hard times" -- Gainax was doing just fine for at least a few years after Anno left. And Gainax was still credited on the rebuilds through 3.0.

This is all irrelevant though, my point was and still is about Khara and the fact they have done basically nothing other than the Eva rebuilds since their inception in 2006. And they will do basically nothing for the next 3 years while Anno is occupied with Kamen Rider. If Anno is supposed to "save" anime like that tuber said it would help it he could actually be fucked to make anime. Counting his money from life sized Ayanami Rei dolls doesn't seem to be helping in that regard.

Oh wait I guess I'm "bashing".

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by stray

I don't know if I'd call Gurren Lagann and Panty and Stocking "hard times" -- Gainax was doing just fine for at least a few years after Anno left.

By "hard times" I meant Gainax finance. From the outset, they looked fine when they released Gurren Lagann but they were actually financially on the way to ruin. It was especially more apparent after Imaishi left Gainax in 2010s.

Originally Posted by stray

And Gainax was still credited on the rebuilds through 3.0.

Anno spent a lot of time & effort to wrestle his baby off from Gainax' rotten hands. After 3.0, now the Evangelion IP has become truly his IIRC.

Originally Posted by stray

This is all irrelevant though, my point was and still is about Khara and the fact they have done basically nothing other than the Eva rebuilds since their inception in 2006.

Focusing & planning on one thing they know how to do best is not a bad thing in the anime industry. Many studios were led to ruin from "biting off more than they can chew".

Originally Posted by stray

And they will do basically nothing for the next 3 years while Anno is occupied with Kamen Rider.

So what? If you view anime as a work of art then you should know that you can't rush it. It's not like anyone will be harmed when Khara is not producing anime . There are many other anime that people can follow.

Originally Posted by stray

If Anno is supposed to "save" anime like that tuber said it would help it he could actually be fucked to make anime.

Why should Anno act based on what random Youtubers said?? Why should Anno act based on memes that he "saves anime"??

Originally Posted by stray

Counting his money from life sized Ayanami Rei dolls doesn't seem to be helping in that regard. Oh wait I guess I'm "bashing".

Indeed you are, to a degree. For a guy age 61 like Anno, we're still lucky that he's still working on projects like the upcoming Shin Ultraman & Shin Kamen Rider when he has no obligation to do anything other than counting money. That means he still has passion to make something to entertain us, the audience, and still willing to work on it.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Focusing & planning on one thing they know how to do best is not a bad thing in the anime industry. Many studios were led to ruin from "biting off more than they can chew".

There was an 8-9 year gap between 3.0 and 3.0 + 1.0. If you're saying that anything more one movie during that time was "biting off more than they could chew" -- I'm not sure if you're making the case you want to be making.

So what? If you view anime as a work of art then you should know that you can't rush it. It's not like anyone will be harmed when Khara is not producing anime . There are many other anime that people can follow.

Nothing is nothing whether you rush it or not. If you multiply any amount of time by zero -- its still zero. For example, 15 years x 0 = 0

Indeed you are, to a degree. For a guy age 61 like Anno, we're still lucky that he's still working on projects like the upcoming Shin Ultraman & Shin Kamen Rider when he has no obligation to do anything other than counting money. That means he still has passion to make something to entertain us, the audience, and still willing to work on it.

If you're excited for his reboots that's your prerogative but considering the general disdain the guy has towards his audience and the shit he talks on anime as a whole the fact that he does nothing but work with old IP and leaves his studio mostly idle is kind of sad. I guess his audience is used to being talked down to though and mostly just thinks he's tsundere. I'm not sure what deredere Anno looks like though...

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by stray

There was an 8-9 year gap between 3.0 and 3.0 + 1.0. If you're saying that anything more one movie during that time was "biting off more than they could chew" -- I'm not sure if you're making the case you want to be making.

If 9 years was the time they needed to make Eva 4 then so be it. I'm not gonna be a smart-ass and talk like I know what Studio Khara's work ethics is like. As long as nobody is harmed or cheated, they do they.

Originally Posted by stray

Nothing is nothing whether you rush it or not. If you multiply any amount of time by zero -- its still zero. For example, 15 years x 0 = 0

Like I said before: only time will tell.

If they decide to make nothing while they enjoy the Eva money, I'm also fine with it. They earned it anyway. It was their own work.

Originally Posted by stray

If you're excited for his reboots that's your prerogative but considering the general disdain the guy has towards his audience and the shit he talks on anime as a whole the fact that he does nothing but work with old IP and leaves his studio mostly idle is kind of sad. I guess his audience is used to being talked down to though and mostly just thinks he's tsundere. I'm not sure what deredere Anno looks like though...

I' not gonna be here talking like I know how Anno feels towards otaku right now.

Still, considering I'm not your typical Japanese hardcore otakus who lock themselves in rooms watching anime/playing games and being NEETs/hikkis, I think Anno's message to "Get a life" to such people is a healthy one. It's not just him though, even many of the anime medium which was designed to be an escapism has an underlying "Move forward & get a life"-message towards the hikkis. For example, Re:Zero & SSSS.Gridman which blatantly presented such message and those works are actually very succesful & appreciated.

[monsta666]

No film or game takes nine years to make. If any project lasts that long it is because it reached development hell at some point and the project stalled at some point. The fact that the third movie's storyline changed radically is a sign of how this Rebuild series reached some sort of crisis point. It was nothing like the preview for Rebuild 2.0. This significant plot change had ramifications for the final movie as it had to handle all the questionable decisions made in the third movie and somehow provide a resolution that was convincing. If I am honest that was a tall order.

The final movie was good but it was not a great movie. I can understand the positive sentiment as people are emotional to see such a great franchise reach its end point. Heck I waited 14 years before seeing the movies because I wanted to marathon the lot without stopping. Emotions aside however if I judge the film on its own individual merits the story was filled with plot holes. On the positive side at least we got to see a conclusion. Unlike shows like Berserk...

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monsta666

No film or game takes nine years to make. If any project lasts that long it is because it reached development hell at some point and the project stalled at some point.

Uh....that much is obvious. If a work took a longer time to finish than normal, of course that means the project faced some hurdles. Don't forget that Anno also needed years to get inspiration for the movie's story (whether or not it's worth it is up to you) by also trying to do something new for him in between (Shin Godzilla).

What I don't get is....why are some people particularly mad that the movie took so long to finish? It's not like you are members of the producers or investors where Khara owed you money to make the movie. Also, it's not like Khara delivered a technically-faulty product after so many delays (Cyberpunk 2077 anyone?). Anno & Khara promised us a conclusion and they delivered us a conclusion (whether or not you like it is up to you).

[Magin]

So I watched Thrice upon a time with English subs. Actually, I ended up watching all four movies in a row. I'm still confused about where Shinji actually went for 14 years after N3I, as well as how Kaji sacrificed himself to stop it. Plus, I assume it means that anyone who pilots an Eva stops growing? Doesn't fully explain Mari (was she piloting an Eva around the time Yui went in 01?), but this is what happens when Anno decides to run with a previously non-canon character who is best explained as "Don't worry about it"

Anyways, back to Thrice upon a Time. Now that I understood it, plus marathoning the other three... still a FANTASTIC movie (IMO), but a bit more bittersweet. Does having Survivor's Guilt count as PTSD? Since that's really what Shinji was suffering from (causing Impacts twice will do that to you, especially since he was heavily manipulated in 4I). And then Anno doing his damndest to sink ships by saying that the two girls were specifically engineered to like Shinji in the first place. Actually, that's another one I'm confused about: was Asuka's name changed because she too is a clone in this timeline? That seems to be the implication.

The village arc, as everyone is calling it... I said it in my other review behind spoilers, but it was nice to see how humanity is surviving after the events of N3I. As is pointed out later, N3I was really a case of Damned if you Do, Damned if you Don't, considering how powerful the 10th Angel in this timeline was. New Rei being moe for the fanbase... such a shame she couldn't last, but I'm glad she managed to finally bring Shinji around. And based on what Fuyutsuki says later, I guess it would've been possible for her to survive longer if this clone had been made a little more stable. Dammit.

But at least I understand Shinji's reason better: Rei can't survive outside of NERV, and like Asuka, Shinji can't truly fit in with the village. On top of that, Kensuke's words about trying to understand his father probably also got Shinji moving.

Of course we then go into full-throttle Eva. Fantastic animation with all the battle scenes... and I found it funny that Anno was trying another ship baiting, in the form of Toji's younger sister. At least the Mari thing didn't come 100% out of nowhere, but yeah, that really is a middle finger to all the fans for the last 25 years.

So, fast forwarding to I guess the anti-universe and clarifying that there are multiple spears; the originals are of course Longinus as Despair and Cassius as Hope, plus Eva units 1 and 13... kinda parallels Kaworu going from being the 1st angel to the 13th Angel in this timeline. And then seeing Gendo's thoughts... well, if Shinji was being an idiot (according to Asuka, of course), it looks like he inherited it from his father, who also needs to win Moron of the Year at this rate. In fact, I was kinda reminded of this... how many of you have been around long enough to remember when all the Key VNs were made into anime? Specifically: Air, Kanon and Clannad? Never watched any of those myself, but I did look up summaries, and basically we had a Clannad: the Movie type of situation.

Spoiler for Clannad: The Movie:

For those who haven't seen it and clicked this spoiler... basically, two of the characters from Clannad did in fact grow up and get married- I think it was Tomoya and Nagisa? Anyways, at least in the movie (okay, and technically in After Story too), Nagisa gives birth to their daughter Fuyu, but then Nagisa dies from illness. And at least the second half of the movie is basically convincing Tomoya to move past his wife's death to be there for his daughter. I think After Story has the better ending, but I know there was a TON of division on THAT ending.

Anyways, basically Gendo FINALLY realizes that Yui's love was left to him in the form of Shinji, and he can now move on. Misato and Mari deliver the new Spear to Shinji so that Additional Impact changes course- it's my headcanon that all those white bodies we see during Additional Impact are in fact becoming all the humans of the world free from Evas, and I'm going to include the non-Eva-pilots (i.e. Toji and his family, kensuke as well) as part of this. Shinji also manages to free from the "original" Rei and Asuka from the Evas and send them into the new World, and somehow Kaworu and kaji are also around... I would love an explanation of Kaworu and kaji's relationship. Hell, can I get enlightened as to what that damned Mary Iscariot comment earlier on was?

So wrapping up the movie, after sinking both the Asuka and Rei ships (and of course the Sakura ship died before it even finished building lol)- heck, I'd still like a clarification is BOTH girls in this time were clone series- Mari manages to make her way into this new dimensional space, and then Shinji says "All Evas, GTFO."... and we go into the real world transition as One Last Kiss plays.

I realize some on this board were heavily dissatisfied, and it was a lengthy wait... but dammit, I'll tell you it was worth the wait. For me so far, it's my Anime (movie) of the Year.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Magin

was Asuka's name changed because she too is a clone in this timeline? That seems to be the implication.

That's the way I see it as well. The comments by Kaworu that Shinji was breaking the cycle this time and that he had been playing the part in this sequence of events before also seem to imply that the "sequel" theory is somewhat correct. Though I admit that for the second one, evidence is a bit more far fetched.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Like I said before: only time will tell.

I'm going to go with 15 years precedent over some Anno fan on the internet who really, really wants to believe.

I think Anno's message to "Get a life" to such people is a healthy one. It's not just him though, even many of the anime medium which was designed to be an escapism has an underlying "Move forward & get a life"-message towards the hikkis. For example, Re:Zero & SSSS.Gridman which blatantly presented such message and those works are actually very succesful & appreciated.

But that message isn't actually conveyed anywhere in Anno's work. If there is a message in Thrice Upon a Time its basically "why not get a wife like mine? Isn't she great?" Meanwhile its loaded with fanservice like Asuka walking around naked for no reason, moe Ayanami Rei, and Mari playing with her glasses in Shaft head tilt -- while Anno complains that he has to because of the loser otaku.

I have very little respect for that kind of commentary, or for creators playing the victim of their own success when they aren't really trying anything new. Either fucking own what you're putting out or use your clout and your idle ass studio to do something different. This goes for Anno or anyone else.

Originally Posted by monsta666

The fact that the third movie's storyline changed radically is a sign of how this Rebuild series reached some sort of crisis point. It was nothing like the preview for Rebuild 2.0. This significant plot change had ramifications for the final movie as it had to handle all the questionable decisions made in the third movie and somehow provide a resolution that was convincing. If I am honest that was a tall order.

It did better than Rise of Skywalker at least?

The entire movie felt like it was either fanservice or filling plot holes. I didn't hate it but it was kind of hollow.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by stray

I'm going to go with 15 years precedent over some Anno fan on the internet who really, really wants to believe.

I don't really try too hard to believe. I simply chose to not bash Anno & Studio Khara. I'd rather spend that energy & attention on other entertainment that I enjoy.

Originally Posted by stray

But that message isn't actually conveyed anywhere in Anno's work. If there is a message in Thrice Upon a Time its basically "why not get a wife like mine? Isn't she great?" Meanwhile its loaded with fanservice like Asuka walking around naked for no reason, moe Ayanami Rei, and Mari playing with her glasses in Shaft head tilt -- while Anno complains that he has to because of the loser otaku.

I know art is subjective and all that, but it's kinda sad that you can only derived such cynical sentiment from the movie.

And even based on your sentiment above, the "Get a good wife"-message in itself is a good one (from my personal experience of having a good wife). There's nothing wrong with that. Maybe it can encourage the hikki-otakus who watch the movie to come out from their rooms, man up, get a job, have a healthy life and make themselves attractive to good men/women of potential partners .

Originally Posted by stray

I have very little respect for that kind of commentary, or for creators playing the victim of their own success when they aren't really trying anything new. Either fucking own what you're putting out or use your clout and your idle ass studio to do something different.

Why does someone need to make something new just to convey a message?

[monsta666]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Uh....that much is obvious. If a work took a longer time to finish than normal, of course that means the project faced some hurdles. Don't forget that Anno also needed years to get inspiration for the movie's story (whether or not it's worth it is up to you) by also trying to do something new for him in between (Shin Godzilla).

I heard he also faced depression so that probably played its part. But to me it is somewhat alarming he needed inspiration to finish the story. I will openly admit I am not a story writer but when I wrote adventurers in AD&D the first thing I would do is outline the overall story and how things would end. That way I can add plot points that foreshadow future events. Also if you have an end point it allows the mind to focus on how to connect the dots for the viewers.

In otherwords it would seem logical to have a basic overview written well in advance. That way you work on the details later on and figure out how to bamboozle the audience and give them clues in how things will end, since you know what the ending will be. With an end point conceived you can focus more on the things that will elevate your story from being good to great.

I did get a sense Anno was making stuff as he went along in the last two movies. The lack of future planning was reflected in the lack character development in Mari who played a key role at the end. This plus the way Asuka got with her partner and ditto with Rei seemed random like they were afterthoughts. Plot points in the thrid and last movie also seemed tacted on indicating a lack of planning. That to me is weak writing which occurred due to poor planning and not a lack of inspiration.

Still despite those shortcomings I felt the story pretty good. But the weakness in the direction was enough for me not to consider this a classic. The biggest thing this movie delivered was it brought closure to a long running series.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

What I don't get is....why are some people particularly mad that the movie took so long to finish? It's not like you are members of the producers or investors where Khara owed you money to make the movie. Also, it's not like Khara delivered a technically-faulty product after so many delays (Cyberpunk 2077 anyone?). Anno & Khara promised us a conclusion and they delivered us a conclusion (whether or not you like it is up to you).

When you announce a film series there is an expectation that each movie will be released within a reasonable amount of time. Reasonable being something within 2-3 years. If this timeline gets extended then people will complain. The longer it is delayed the greater the number of complaints and the more people worry about stuff like development hell which ultimately undermine the series.

If producers want to avoid such pressures they should not make promises as they invite that kind of pressure. I am not saying the fans are right here but it is a known dynamic that occurs in films, games and anime so it is something that could have been anticpated. This long lead time can often be bad for business as people no longer hold interest in seeing the sequels. That isn't an issue with Evangelion due the size of its fanbase but if the show was not as popular then it would likely suffer from this delay.

[Ichinotachi]

Originally Posted by Dextro

That's the way I see it as well. The comments by Kaworu that Shinji was breaking the cycle this time and that he had been playing the part in this sequence of events before also seem to imply that the "sequel" theory is somewhat correct. Though I admit that for the second one, evidence is a bit more far fetched.

Is more like the original Asuka died at the end of the original series, her soul ended up inside the EVA 02, what we got during rebuild were the clones made out of her. At the end we saw the real Asuka once again, with her grown up 28yo body and her original soul.

On a side note completely unrelated to the quoted post, some people just cannot accept that their ship sunk and that Asuka did not ended with Shinji, others have a hate boner for Anno. Everyone knows he did this in part to make more profit out of the franchise but he ended up doing a pretty good job, if anything the third movie was a bit of a mess but the last one just did a great job at providing a message and a proper conclussion to Evangelion as a whole, an ending that sticks to that message.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Ichinotachi

Is more like the original Asuka died at the end of the original series, her soul ended up inside the EVA 02, what we got during rebuild were the clones made out of her. At the end we saw the real Asuka once again, with her grown up 28yo body and her original soul.

Oh! I hadn't considered that possibility. That's a great hypothesis indeed. Really really interesting one. Love it.

Originally Posted by Ichinotachi

On a side note completely unrelated to the quoted post, some people just cannot accept that their ship sunk and that Asuka did not ended with Shinji, others have a hate boner for Anno. Everyone knows he did this in part to make more profit out of the franchise but he ended up doing a pretty good job, if anything the third movie was a bit of a mess but the last one just did a great job at providing a message and a proper conclussion to Evangelion as a whole, an ending that sticks to that message.

Yhep. Mari really does seem to only exist to say F U to all the Rei and Asuka shippers from the original show. While her character was very poorly handled imho, I love that fact that she exists

[kk2extreme]

Shinji X Mari eh

I don't remember any build ups before

[Magin]

^ Hence why we're all saying that pairing is Anno's personal "Eff you" to all the fans who've been shipping either Shinji x Asuka or Shinji x Rei for all these years. A pairing that came out of nowhere and Word of God has made it canon.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Dextro

While her character was very poorly handled imho, I love that fact that she exists

I'm not sure if how Mari poorly handled as the winner is unintentional.

I mean, throughout movie, we got comparison session of "why relationship with Asuka not working" and "why relationship with Rei is not working as well".
Mari somehow escape this comparison session and went straight to finish line with ... "actually she's as old as his mother and voiced by Sakamoto Maaya".

Then I saw some of you said that Anno mentioned there is gap from Mari era that is another story be told.
Made me wonder if he originally intended to make the movie comparison between those three but decided not to at last minute, leaving Mari as "insurance" if either he or Studio Khara need to revisit Evangelion; all without disturbing 3.0 + 1.0 as ending of Evangelion.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tactics

IThen I saw some of you said that Anno mentioned there is gap from Mari era that is another story be told.
Made me wonder if he originally intended to make the movie comparison between those three but decided not to at last minute, leaving Mari as "insurance" if either he or Studio Khara need to revisit Evangelion; all without disturbing 3.0 + 1.0 as ending of Evangelion.

Which Mari era are we talking about? Is it the period when she was still crushing on Yui during their college days? Or the time gap during Shinji's comatose state?

I thought Anno said that he can fill the time gap between 2.0 & 3.0 if he has to revisit Eva again.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I thought Anno said that he can fill the time gap between 2.0 & 3.0 if he has to revisit Eva again.

Right. This one, seems I mistaken it to her past.

Anno can have Mari as main character for said time gap with maybe several flashback of her college days.
"Why Mari Matters and Deserve To Win" The Series would be a surefire method to pique audience interest considering most audience opinion about her if they need to revisit Evangelion sometimes later.