Fate/Grand Order (Mobile RPG)

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Vitch loves playing with humanity. Like really, I can't actually find any instance where humans turn her off unlike with Limbo

Well... Nothing with such a fluffy looking tail can be truly evil

[Thess]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Well... Nothing with such a fluffy looking tail can be truly evil

No, she's truly evil, unlike Douman who failed to be.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Well... Nothing with such a fluffy looking tail can be truly evil

Bring out Golden White Face Amaterasu then we'll see since she's the source of all Tamamos

But that will probably never happen since she'll break the powercreep being an actual Sun god when everything so far except Zeus and co are Earth-bound

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Bring out Golden White Face Amaterasu then we'll see since she's the source of all Tamamos

But that will probably never happen since she'll break the powercreep being an actual Sun god when everything so far except Zeus and co are Earth-bound

Except Amaterasu is essentially a neet. So that could be used to limit her power level.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Bring out Golden White Face Amaterasu then we'll see since she's the source of all Tamamos

But that will probably never happen since she'll break the powercreep being an actual Sun god when everything so far except Zeus and co are Earth-bound

Nah we are still good... All the Egyptians gods lost too (all of them , Ra included), so someone is bound to be able to beat Goddess Fluffy Tail.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Bring out Golden White Face Amaterasu then we'll see since she's the source of all Tamamos

But that will probably never happen since she'll break the powercreep being an actual Sun god when everything so far except Zeus and co are Earth-bound

I mean, LB 3 went out of the way to say that the Tree of Emptiness contains an honest to god galaxy, and it can direct all of that energy at us. And we still killed it.

So between that, the Servant Universe stuff, the universal shenanigans of the Hindu deities, and all the shit that Zeus can apparently do, being the sun is borderline underwhelming

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by XFire

I mean, LB 3 went out of the way to say that the Tree of Emptiness contains an honest to god galaxy, and it can direct all of that energy at us. And we still killed it.

That is absolutely undefinable at this point knowing that the Trees and the bleaching probably stemmed from something happening on Earth after Olympus. And if it really had the power of an entire galaxy it would make Zeus and co look tame but nothing is mentioned of it other than a footnote in LB3

Servant Universe is also pretty much a joke event. Having Astarte really have the full power of a galactic deity accessible would break the main story so it's clear it's not meant to be serious canon

Arjuna Alter and co are still Earth-scale despite the apparent universe busting. They really aren't since his NP is anti-world. Meaning the "universe" it busts and remakes is simply the Earth's texture and not the actual universe. Like if he really had the power to affect the entire universe none of the alien entities etc would even be a significant threat. He could even just break universal quantum time locks if he wanted, but he obviously can't.

We have, besides Ishtar Astarte, Kiara, Zeus, the Aristoteles and Amaterasu, no actual extra-planetary entities yet. If you take away Astarte since she isn't meant to be canon, Amaterasu is the highest scale entity there. That's also before you count the supposed link she has to Vairochana Buddha

So yeah, if you think "being the sun" is underwhelming, then consider Kama and the Hindu pantheon did what they did while being "merely" Earth-bound and consider again. Not even Zeus has the output of a sun IIRC. He has an Anti-Star NP but in the end he's still just a fleet of starships.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

That is absolutely undefinable at this point knowing that the Trees and the bleaching probably stemmed from something happening on Earth after Olympus. And if it really had the power of an entire galaxy it would make Zeus and co look tame but nothing is mentioned of it other than a footnote in LB3

Servant Universe is also pretty much a joke event. Having Astarte really have the full power of a galactic deity accessible would break the main story so it's clear it's not meant to be serious canon

Arjuna Alter and co are still Earth-scale despite the apparent universe busting. They really aren't since his NP is anti-world. Meaning the "universe" it busts and remakes is simply the Earth's texture and not the actual universe. Like if he really had the power to affect the entire universe none of the alien entities etc would even be a significant threat. He could even just break universal quantum time locks if he wanted, but he obvoiusly can't.

We have, besides Ishtar Astarte, Kiara, Zeus, the Aristoteles and Amaterasu, no actual extra-planetary entities yet. If you take away Astarte since she isn't meant to be canon, Amaterasu is the highest scale entity there. That's also before you count the supposed link she has to Vairochana Buddha

So yeah, if you think "being the sun" is underwhelming, then consider Kama and the Hindu pantheon did what they do while being "merely" Earth-bound and consider again. Not even Zeus has the output of a sun IIRC. He has an Anti-Star NP but in the end he's still just a fleet of starships.

Amaterasu is apparently just another divine spirit not alive either as she brought Hakuru back to the past on a whim. He didn't just slip into her present domain there.

On another note: In case no I haven't said it yet: The knight in the Losbelt part 2 OP might be Sir Kay. He does at least look like the one fate universe imagine we have of him.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Ibuki is out. 2nd Ascend is the best one if you ask me


https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/...fa_and_skills/

Essentially AOE Dioscuri but Buster gorilla


EDIT: Got her in 20 rolls YEESSS

[darkofficer]

no ibuki for me but i got lily medea np2, arjuna and martha..

[AC-Phoenix]

Addition to the strange beast explanation given by the Lore:

By the logic the story gives us, Medusa highly qualifies as a Beast.
A former goddess who technically still wants to be loved by humanity, and all that love got turned into spite when she started loving to kill the heroes who came to the sister's island . Oh, and, she also turned into a monster...

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

That is absolutely undefinable at this point knowing that the Trees and the bleaching probably stemmed from something happening on Earth after Olympus. And if it really had the power of an entire galaxy it would make Zeus and co look tame but nothing is mentioned of it other than a footnote in LB3

The MC can literally ask "As in giant celestial body, galaxy?" and then its confirmed that that's correct. There's not any way around that.

And Zeus is directly compared to Arjalter, who actually murders the entire universe on-screen.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Servant Universe is also pretty much a joke event. Having Astarte really have the full power of a galactic deity accessible would break the main story so it's clear it's not meant to be serious canon

Hi, welcome to Nasuverse, where jokes are the deepest of lore. First time here?

For the record, the Servant Universe event has the universe actually destroyed and brought back on screen, as well.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Arjuna Alter and co are still Earth-scale despite the apparent universe busting. They really aren't since his NP is anti-world. Meaning the "universe" it busts and remakes is simply the Earth's texture and not the actual universe. Like if he really had the power to affect the entire universe none of the alien entities etc would even be a significant threat. He could even just break universal quantum time locks if he wanted, but he obviously can't.

No they aren't. We see what Arjalters ability actually does, and it reduces everything to primordial soup. There's nothing at all left outside of the Shadow Border when it happens. The stars themselves are actually physically gone.

For that matter you realize that the "world" has the ability to influence far more than just what's on the actual planets surface, right? Since Fate/Extra CCC, its been blatantly spelled out that Gods and the like can influence huge portions of the cosmos despite being weaker than "the planet".

Hell, Zeus is directly compared to Arjalter and is explicitly stated the first time you see him to have the power to incinerate the universe.

That's not getting into the rest of the Moon Cell shit, like how it cloaked an entire galaxy to hide from Sefar.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

We have, besides Ishtar Astarte, Kiara, Zeus, the Aristoteles and Amaterasu, no actual extra-planetary entities yet. If you take away Astarte since she isn't meant to be canon, Amaterasu is the highest scale entity there. That's also before you count the supposed link she has to Vairochana Buddha

"Not meant to be canon". Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Space Ishtar shows up in the event that Summer Musashi does. And when real Musashi goes [REDACTED], Summer Musashi goes with her. There's your canon. Also MHX shows up in a number of events, including Solomon.

Kiara has literal control over a solar system, Arjalter again undoes the universe on-screen and we see the stars and everything else reduced to primordial soup. The ToE explicitly contains a galaxy. The Servant Universe exists. Mara's personal dimension is explicitly infinite in size and compared to "the universe". Etc, etc. Nasu has not exactly been subtle with the whole cosmic scale thing

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

So yeah, if you think "being the sun" is underwhelming, then consider Kama and the Hindu pantheon did what they did while being "merely" Earth-bound and consider again. Not even Zeus has the output of a sun IIRC. He has an Anti-Star NP but in the end he's still just a fleet of starships.

"Being the sun" isn't impressive unless the suns ability influence the cosmos is as equally scaled up as the planets is. Which it very well could be considering what happened in LB 5.5, but that remains to be seen.

But again, "Earth-bound" isn't an actual physical limitation. Gods and Divine spirits having the ability to affect the cosmos based on that being how humans perceived said cosmos has been around since pre-FGO. Nasu only really started to go ham with it relatively recently, but he's also been pretty explict in terms of scale.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by XFire

The MC can literally ask "As in giant celestial body, galaxy?" and then its confirmed that that's correct. There's not any way around that.

Power and output are not the same thing in Nasuverse, eg. Dark Sakura in Heaven's Feel. If the Trees could output the power of a galaxy, we'd be doomed no matter what.

And Zeus is directly compared to Arjalter, who actually murders the entire universe on-screen.

I always subscribed to the belief that Arjalter universe rewrite basically worked on a local reference frame basis.

Hi, welcome to Nasuverse, where jokes are the deepest of lore. First time here?

You're not...totally wrong, but I seriously don't think we need to take Servant Universe seriously, as it written as a total joke/parody. I mean, do you take GudaGuda seriously too?

[Void]

With that juicy new upgrade Charles Babbage is now the hardest hitting R caster, none comes even close. Not only that, he also hits harder than most sabers.

As one who has him grailed up to lv. 100 l couldn't be more satisfied.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Power and output are not the same thing in Nasuverse, eg. Dark Sakura in Heaven's Feel. If the Trees could output the power of a galaxy, we'd be doomed no matter what.

Again, it's deliberately stated that the galaxy in question is a real, actual galaxy.

Followed immediately by "It's directing all of that energy at us".

If it helps, Qin was fighting alongside us and is both the equivalent of a Grand and specializing in defense. And Mash's shield was able to tank AAS from Goetia, which apparently has the same level of energy as a ToE (this is from a future lostbelt so the translation may change that).

Originally Posted by Endscape

I always subscribed to the belief that Arjalter universe rewrite basically worked on a local reference frame basis.

I mean, we literally see it happen. The entirety of visible space, including the sun/stars, is gone after it happens. And Arjalter was so powerful he scared the shit out of Mara, who literally is a universe unto herself.

Originally Posted by Endscape

You're not...totally wrong, but I seriously don't think we need to take Servant Universe seriously, as it written as a total joke/parody. I mean, do you take GudaGuda seriously too?

Yes, in so far as it actually exists and that stuff actually happens in-universe. Hence the whole Final Honnouji and like events that use those characters, we recognize them from the previous events, and they show up in other canon events as well.

There's a literal in-universe explanation for why those events can do stuff like break the fourth wall and such in those "whatever particles" that alter the laws of physics and everyones common sense.

Nasu went out of his way to create ways to take the "joke" sidestories and make them a full part of cannon. Which is why we get stuff like Okita Alter and Avernger Nobu who are played completely seriously and straight (in-story anyway) and are explicitly connected to the goofballs from the joke events.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by XFire

Again, it's deliberately stated that the galaxy in question is a real, actual galaxy.

Followed immediately by "It's directing all of that energy at us".

If it helps, Qin was fighting alongside us and is both the equivalent of a Grand and specializing in defense. And Mash's shield was able to tank AAS from Goetia, which apparently has the same level of energy as a ToE (this is from a future lostbelt so the translation may change that).

I don't doubt that it was the power of a galaxy, I just doubt that it was directing the entirety of that output at us, because we'd have gotten wiped out instantly, regardless of who is there or not.

I mean, we literally see it happen. The entirety of visible space, including the sun/stars, is gone after it happens. And Arjalter was so powerful he scared the shit out of Mara, who literally is a universe unto herself.

Not sure you're getting what I mean when I say from a local reference frame point of view. I meant Arjalter is erasing the universe that is observable from Earth, not you know, the entire universe.

Yes, in so far as it actually exists and that stuff actually happens in-universe. Hence the whole Final Honnouji and like events that use those characters, we recognize them from the previous events, and they show up in other canon events as well.

There's a literal in-universe explanation for why those events can do stuff like break the fourth wall and such in those "whatever particles" that alter the laws of physics and everyones common sense.

Nasu went out of his way to create ways to take the "joke" sidestories and make them a full part of cannon. Which is why we get stuff like Okita Alter and Avernger Nobu who are played completely seriously and straight (in-story anyway) and are explicitly connected to the goofballs from the joke events.

Parody events are just, parody. Servants from those events might be used later, but it's not really meant to be seen as something to be taken seriously as canon.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I don't doubt that it was the power of a galaxy, I just doubt that it was directing the entirety of that output at us, because we'd have gotten wiped out instantly, regardless of who is there or not.

It is explicitly doing so, though. Like the characters straight up say its directing all of its energy at us.

Qin is equivalent to a Grand, and Solomon as Grand Caster was supposed to be equal to Goetia. Who was firing an attack with energy equivalent to the ToE. Him being able to defend against that scale of attack is hardly without precedent.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Not sure you're getting what I mean when I say from a local reference frame point of view. I meant Arjalter is erasing the universe that is observable from Earth, not you know, the entire universe.

Arjalter and his powers are based on Hinduism, and irc Indian cosmology back then projected the universe to actually be larger than what we now consider the observable universe in real life (and presumably in Fate).

And Mara, who is explicitly an infinite universe in and of herself, is scared shitless of him.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Parody events are just, parody. Servants from those events might be used later, but it's not really meant to be seen as something to be taken seriously as canon.

Except they explicitly aren't. Gudaguda canonically happens in exactly the way we see. Everyone involved can do the things they do in the story. And that persists even when they get involved in other more serious events.

Nasu bent himself over backwards to go "Yes this crazy thing is actually happening, here's how".

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by XFire

The MC can literally ask "As in giant celestial body, galaxy?" and then its confirmed that that's correct. There's not any way around that.

And Zeus is directly compared to Arjalter, who actually murders the entire universe on-screen.

And yet, nothing says that's what the full output they were receiving when you fight it.

I mean, we literally see it happen. The entirety of visible space, including the sun/stars, is gone after it happens. And Arjalter was so powerful he scared the shit out of Mara, who literally is a universe unto herself.

No they aren't. We see what Arjalters ability actually does, and it reduces everything to primordial soup. There's nothing at all left outside of the Shadow Border when it happens. The stars themselves are actually physically gone.

For that matter you realize that the "world" has the ability to influence far more than just what's on the actual planets surface, right? Since Fate/Extra CCC, its been blatantly spelled out that Gods and the like can influence huge portions of the cosmos despite being weaker than "the planet".

Hell, Zeus is directly compared to Arjalter and is explicitly stated the first time you see him to have the power to incinerate the universe.

That's not getting into the rest of the Moon Cell shit, like how it cloaked an entire galaxy to hide from Sefar.

I could ask you whether it's your first time here, knowing NPs generate all kinds of visual effects that do not actually correspond to their true level.

Fact of the matter is, Junao and Mara being actual universe level entities raises massive questions with the storyline. Going by how Anti-World NPs have always been texture busting rather than destroying the actual planet itself I'd be inclined to go with what has always been consistently shown.

And no.....Zeus is stated to have actual power dependent on himself alone vs Junao who requires the faith of his people to fuel him. I don't recall at all where Zeus is stated to be a universe killer. Show me where that actually is stated if you please.

Hi, welcome to Nasuverse, where jokes are the deepest of lore. First time here?

For the record, the Servant Universe event has the universe actually destroyed and brought back on screen, as well.

You can fling memes around all day but until it affects the main plot canon, it's just that....parody. Else Mushroom would have to come up with another band aid to cover that gaping plot-hole implication of how you have a galaxy-level goddess at your disposal but still cannot resolve the Lostbelt issue.

"Being the sun" isn't impressive unless the suns ability influence the cosmos is as equally scaled up as the planets is. Which it very well could be considering what happened in LB 5.5, but that remains to be seen.

But again, "Earth-bound" isn't an actual physical limitation. Gods and Divine spirits having the ability to affect the cosmos based on that being how humans perceived said cosmos has been around since pre-FGO. Nasu only really started to go ham with it relatively recently, but he's also been pretty explict in terms of scale.

Like I said, virtually 98% of everything is still Earth-bound so it stands to reason the Sun's ability is far beyond most ofeverything shown so far. Why do you think OORT is still considered a big deal even though it's just "merely" TYPE-Mercury?

Arjalter and his powers are based on Hinduism, and irc Indian cosmology back then projected the universe to actually be larger than what we now consider the observable universe in real life (and presumably in Fate).

And Mara, who is explicitly an infinite universe in and of herself, is scared shitless of him.

And actual Indian cosmology =/= stuff in Type-Moon. Otherwise explain how Junao wasn't able to stop himself getting Lost Belt-ed if he were the actual omnipotent Brahman-Atman of IRL Hinduism.

OTOH if you want to play that game, Mushroom has tried to claim Amaterasu as an emanation of Vairochana Buddha and Buddhas in Type-Moon were explicitly stated to rule different star or galaxy clusters. But until any of that is actually demonstrated in a main story, I'm inclined to just leave it as that.

It is explicitly doing so, though. Like the characters straight up say its directing all of its energy at us.

Until it is known what those Trees really are BTW, you cannot make any assumptions off them. And for the record, Olympus states those Trees are generating the Lostbelts as a form of texture projector so to speak......Beyond that, it's impossible to state just how much power they have

Originally Posted by Endscape

Not sure you're getting what I mean when I say from a local reference frame point of view. I meant Arjalter is erasing the universe that is observable from Earth, not you know, the entire universe.

Most likely not even that. It's the same way how Ea or Goddess Rhongomyniad rips the texture off the World. Remember Junao is still confined within his Lostbelt, something that can literally be projected onto the Earth's blank canvas by the Trees. He's not wiping everything outside his Lostbelt out and remaking them each time he uses Maha Pralaya.......The data, so to speak, is still retained by the Tree projecting his Lostbelt, it would appear. He just resets that projected texture. On the overall cosmological scale, he still cannot overcome the Quantum Time Lock on his universe's timeline.


Kama/Mara is a legit universe-scale entity but it's not a fixed actual thing, unlike Zeus and co. It depends on circumstances that can be turned against her as in the Ooku event. Contrast with the Olympians......LB5 made that clear when Zeus is shown to depend only on himself for his ability while the likes of Junao and Kama have circumstantial rules and limitations to follow. You can push the limits of interpretation of your ability as far as it will go even to the point of making yourself a universe.....But in the end, you're still limited and a true, extra-terrestrial entity has just more fuel than you and will trump you if they really push it.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

And yet, nothing says that's what the full output they were receiving when you fight it.

"It's an actual galaxy"

"All of its energy is being directed at us"

Yeah, they are literally saying that's what's happening

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

I could ask you whether it's your first time here, knowing NPs generate all kinds of visual effects that do not actually correspond to their true level.

I'm not talking about his NP animation. During the story of LB 4, Arjalter actually destroys the universe while we watch from Zero Space. You get an actual image of it and there is nothing left. The sun and stars you could see before are all gone.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Fact of the matter is, Junao and Mara being actual universe level entities raises massive questions with the storyline. Going by how Anti-World NPs have always been texture busting rather than destroying the actual planet itself I'd be inclined to go with what has always been consistently shown.

No, it really doesn't. Arjalter and Mara are explicitly and repeatedly refered to as having that level of power. Both demonstrate it on screen. And both have to be dealt with using various levels of BS to sidestep or match that power.

And what are you talking about with "texture-busting"? The only time that's come up is with Gil's Ea, which he was using inside the galaxy sized Moon Cell dimension.

In the first place, Anti-World isn't a level of power. It means it can violate or alter the laws of the World somehow. Okita Alter has an Anti-World NP that targets a single person.

And going against what's explicitly shown to be happening for both entities under question is hardly rational.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

And no.....Zeus is stated to have actual power dependent on himself alone vs Junao who requires the faith of his people to fuel him. I don't recall at all where Zeus is stated to be a universe killer. Show me where that actually is stated if you please.

Immediately after that, when Gordeolf says something to the effect of "Zeus had the power to incinerate the universe through brute force". And again, being favorably compared to Arjalter, who nukes the universe on screen in front of you, carries that connotation anyway.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

You can fling memes around all day but until it affects the main plot canon, it's just that....parody. Else Mushroom would have to come up with another band aid to cover that gaping plot-hole implication of how you have a galaxy-level goddess at your disposal but still cannot resolve the Lostbelt issue.

The band-aid is "every Lostbelt king since then has been massively more powerful than she is"

And again, it did affect "main plot canon". MHX shows up in Solomon, and she's part of the universe destruction/reset.

For that matter, every event in FGO has always been canon. Characters who appeared in events have those meetings referenced in main storyline constantly. You'd have to prove otherwise for your argument.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Like I said, virtually 98% of everything is still Earth-bound so it stands to reason the Sun's ability is far beyond most of everything shown so far. Why do you think OORT is still considered a big deal even though it's just "merely" TYPE-Mercury?

And again, you're pretty blatantly contradicting what actually happens in the game.

For that matter you seem to think that "the World" itself is "Earth-bound". The World has consistently and repeatedly shown it has the ability to influence the cosmos since pre-FGO era.

"The World" created nearly everything we're discussing now, and is in fact more powerful than everything else. It created and maintained a massive number of parallel worlds, created the laws of physics, and in the Servant Universe the Human Order basically ate the rest of universe whole. It's not limited to affecting a single planet.

OORT is considered dangerous because it's an Ultimate One. It has the full force of another entire "World" behind it, and thus can violate and overcome the principles of our "World" to a certain extent.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

And actual Indian cosmology =/= stuff in Type-Moon. Otherwise explain how Junao wasn't able to stop himself getting Lost Belt-ed if he were the actual omnipotent Brahman-Atman of IRL Hinduism.

Cosmology as in astronomy, not mythology. Like the Indian scientific community even back in ancient times had a pretty good idea of the size of the universe compared to what we know about it now.

And that's actually explicitly brought up as the reason Kiara can control her own solar system has to do with the Buddhist concept of a trichiliocosm. So the perception of scale has a pretty direct effect on the scale of what a deity can affect.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

OTOH if you want to play that game, Mushroom has tried to claim Amaterasu as an emanation of Vairochana Buddha and Buddhas in Type-Moon were explicitly stated to rule different star or galaxy clusters. But until any of that is actually demonstrated in a main story, I'm inclined to just leave it as that.

And? If anything that's probably true and Ammy will be around the level of the Lostbelt Kings or higher, especially considering what Ibuki Douji was able to do in LB 5.5 despite being a Bunri of Orochi.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Until it is known what those Trees really are BTW, you cannot make any assumptions off them. And for the record, Olympus states those Trees are generating the Lostbelts as a form of texture projector so to speak......Beyond that, it's impossible to state just how much power they have

Dude.

They literally say "as in giant celestial body, galaxy?" Again there isn't much room for interpretation in that. And immediately followed by "all that energy is being directed at us".

The fact that the tree explicitly holding the power of galaxy is required to generate a texture should tell you how much power "the World" has when it maintains several of them across multiple parallel worlds.



The core of the issue I can see is that you're taking reference to "the World" too literally and assuming that limits everything to the physical scale of a single planet. Cosmic scale feats by deities and the World itself have been around since before FGO.

The reason it comes up so rarely outside the Extra series is because the World explicitly steps in to prevent anything too large scale from affecting the planet directly. The reason it's happening so often in FGO now is because that protection has been removed.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Most likely not even that. It's the same way how Ea or Goddess Rhongomyniad rips the texture off the World. Remember Junao is still confined within his Lostbelt, something that can literally be projected onto the Earth's blank canvas by the Trees. He's not wiping everything outside his Lostbelt out and remaking them each time he uses Maha Pralaya.......The data, so to speak, is still retained by the Tree projecting his Lostbelt, it would appear. He just resets that projected texture. On the overall cosmological scale, he still cannot overcome the Quantum Time Lock on his universe's timeline.


Kama/Mara is a legit universe-scale entity but it's not a fixed actual thing, unlike Zeus and co. It depends on circumstances that can be turned against her as in the Ooku event. Contrast with the Olympians......LB5 made that clear when Zeus is shown to depend only on himself for his ability while the likes of Junao and Kama have circumstantial rules and limitations to follow. You can push the limits of interpretation of your ability as far as it will go even to the point of making yourself a universe.....But in the end, you're still limited and a true, extra-terrestrial entity has just more fuel than you and will trump you if they really push it.

And this is exactly what I mean. You have for some reason made the assumption that the texture in itself is limited in scale to the size of a single planet, despite it being generated by an entity explicitly containing a galaxy.

The reason he can't reach outside his Lostbelt is because its effectively a self contained dimension, whose walls are maintained by a being presumably somewhat equal to the World itself (as in, stronger than him). Again we can observe the sun and stars in his Lostbelt which are then wiped away by his NP.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by XFire

"It's an actual galaxy"

"All of its energy is being directed at us"

Yeah, they are literally saying that's what's happening

Because what the Trees are is well known right?

I'm not talking about his NP animation. During the story of LB 4, Arjalter actually destroys the universe while we watch from Zero Space. You get an actual image of it and there is nothing left. The sun and stars you could see before are all gone.

Which signifies nothing at all given that the Lostbelts are projections of the Trees. You surely aren't equating each Lostbelt to the entire universe the story is taking place in?

Add on to the fact the Lostbelt isn't actually "gone" when it happens. That only occurs when you take out the Tree projecting it, leading to the Cosmos Denial.

No, it really doesn't. Arjalter and Mara are explicitly and repeatedly refered to as having that level of power. Both demonstrate it on screen. And both have to be dealt with using various levels of BS to sidestep or match that power.

Which explicitly means they don't have that absolute level of power. In Kama's case you can out BS her. In Junao's case you can also but with him, he explicitly cannot affect even the planet itself (not anti-planet NP). Compare with Zeus whose power is reliant only on his nature as a starship (anti-star NP as well) and not circumstances

And what are you talking about with "texture-busting"? The only time that's come up is with Gil's Ea, which he was using inside the galaxy sized Moon Cell dimension.

I dunno.....all Anti-World NPs? Of which Maha Pralaya is one?

In the first place, Anti-World isn't a level of power. It means it can violate or alter the laws of the World somehow. Okita Alter has an Anti-World NP that targets a single person.

Which means texture editing/busting. NOT destroying the planet. You need backing from a celestial body scale entity for that. Like Kiara jacking the Mooncell or BB.

And going against what's explicitly shown to be happening for both entities under question is hardly rational.

Because Type-MOON mechanics are very explicit and straightforward. More straightforward than all the technobabble they spend pages upon pages on. Right.

Immediately after that, when Gordeolf says something to the effect of "Zeus had the power to incinerate the universe through brute force". And again, being favorably compared to Arjalter, who nukes the universe on screen in front of you, carries that connotation anyway.

Zeus does break the spacetime fabric in the Musashi scene after you defeat him but it's not nuking the whole universe.

And Arjuna Alt busting the whole universe......See above. It is very clear he doesn't.

Look, plenty of Type-MOON abilities rely on conceptual interpretation but the one thing very consistent is the celestial body hierarchy. To the point destroying a planet, let alone the whole universe is a very big deal and merits its own class of NP.

The band-aid is "every Lostbelt king since then has been massively more powerful than she is"

You know very well that's not the case. Hell, that response simply highlights how unquantifiable Astarte is in the main plot.

And again, it did affect "main plot canon". MHX shows up in Solomon, and she's part of the universe destruction/reset.

For that matter, every event in FGO has always been canon. Characters who appeared in events have those meetings referenced in main storyline constantly. You'd have to prove otherwise for your argument.

None of them are Astarte though. She's obviously treated as that person whom we don't mention in any major role.

And again, you're pretty blatantly contradicting what actually happens in the game.

For that matter you seem to think that "the World" itself is "Earth-bound". The World has consistently and repeatedly shown it has the ability to influence the cosmos since pre-FGO era.

"The World" created nearly everything we're discussing now, and is in fact more powerful than everything else. It created and maintained a massive number of parallel worlds, created the laws of physics, and in the Servant Universe the Human Order basically ate the rest of universe whole. It's not limited to affecting a single planet.

Except that Anti-World NP is explicitly stated to be unable to destroy the planet. So equating World with "Everything" is false. The World is the texture of Earth that people experience. Example Rhongomyniad pins the front and back sides of the World in place.

If humans became the dominant race in the universe like in the Servant Universe maybe. It isn't in the main one though.

And BTW, the source of everything in Type MOON is the Root. The "thing" Void Ryogi is connected to. Not the World.

OORT is considered dangerous because it's an Ultimate One. It has the full force of another entire "World" behind it, and thus can violate and overcome the principles of our "World" to a certain extent.

You......don't see how this contradicts your notion that being of another celestial body like the sun is underwhelming? Especially with how you defined World above?

And BTW, before you say so.....OORT is of Mercury (or was. Who knows if that's still true) not another universe. So World is more connected to state of a planet than the whole universe.

Cosmology as in astronomy, not mythology. Like the Indian scientific community even back in ancient times had a pretty good idea of the size of the universe compared to what we know about it now.

It doesn't have any relevance to Arjuna Alt here though.

And that's actually explicitly brought up as the reason Kiara can control her own solar system has to do with the Buddhist concept of a trichiliocosm. So the perception of scale has a pretty direct effect on the scale of what a deity can affect.

She also has the Mooncell backing her for that.

That aside, Buddhas and certain celestial body deities are the only entities stated to govern swathes of non-Earth celestial domains in Type MOON so far. The rest, Arjuna Alter included, are still bound by Earth rules.

And? If anything that's probably true and Ammy will be around the level of the Lostbelt Kings or higher, especially considering what Ibuki Douji was able to do in LB 5.5 despite being a Bunri of Orochi.

Kings other than Zeus are not as high up there as you seem to think. Sure they are stronger than almost anything else but not to the level you are implying.

Dude.

They literally say "as in giant celestial body, galaxy?" Again there isn't much room for interpretation in that. And immediately followed by "all that energy is being directed at us".

The fact that the tree explicitly holding the power of galaxy is required to generate a texture should tell you how much power "the World" has when it maintains several of them across multiple parallel worlds.

And the World is still dependent on the celestial body known as Earth. You know what even the Moon is capable of as shown by the Mooncell. Is this a "galaxy" or is this an actual astronomical formation commonly known as a galaxy?

Don't blame me when Mushroom made these distinctions.

The core of the issue I can see is that you're taking reference to "the World" too literally and assuming that limits everything to the physical scale of a single planet. Cosmic scale feats by deities and the World itself have been around since before FGO.

Because it's Mushroom himself who defines these things? Do I think it's stupid writing? Yes I do. But can I see his point? Yes I can.

And remember, far before Fate even came out, we had Aristoteles running rampant. Them trumping anything coming out of humanity has been consistent up to today

For that matter, everything went out the window when Mushroom tied Arjuna Alt to explicitly Human Order as a Lostbelt King instead of the Brahman-Atman concept. How can something explicitly the source and nature of all in IRL Hinduism be limited only to his Lostbelt and its progress? It is clear after this that one cannot use Hinduism IRL to gauge his ability since it only follows superficially.

The reason it comes up so rarely outside the Extra series is because the World explicitly steps in to prevent anything too large scale from affecting the planet directly. The reason it's happening so often in FGO now is because that protection has been removed.

Again, by that logic, Anti-World NPs would be the most destructive thing around. We know they aren't.

Like seriously......No one should be able to escape Maha Pralaya if that were the case. Not even by exiting the Lostbelt.