[Manga] Naruto Chapter 691 Discussion Thread

[dniv]

That wasn't a bad chapter. That was pretty good. Though I suppose anything is better than last chapter...

[Quzor]

Originally Posted by JSnow

I liked all the back story ch. And I like how the bad guys weren't just evil to be evil but does naruto have to save everyone? Obito specifically, he is a very interesting complex character who I enjoyed. I think it's fine if he has a change of heart at the end but he still killed thousands of ppl I don't think naruto should be saying he's a great guy. It was interesting and unexpected when you get nagato's back story but when you repeat with Obito and Madara(I'm just trying to do the right thing) it gets stale. And the hole kaguya (or whatever her name was) seemed forced.

Was it really unexpected with Nagato? What about Gaara from part one? Nagato's story was basically the same, just on a much grander scale. And Nagato destroyed the entire village. Why does he get a pass as a "great guy," but Obito doesn't?

Both of these characters were about redemption. Naruto recognized that they were trying to do what was right in the only way they knew how. It was Naruto's "way of the ninja" that inevitably showed them the error of their ways, and led to their redemption, and Naruto recognizing them as good people is the direct line by which they recognize their errors, and become redeemable.

I was expecting Obito and Madara to be more lethal. I thought a member of team 7 (possibly sakura) to be killed. (possibly by Sasuke) I thought this would cause naruto to have a moment of doubt and maybe be a little dark for a while before coming around. Maybe even Sasuke would end up saving natuto.

I know he did have a very very short moment of doubt before hinate pulled him back but that what I mean by safe and weak. Pain in comparison killed and injured more significant ppl than Madara and obito. That doesn't seem right to me. I wasn't expecting a blood bath but I did think another major character was going to die. Possibly a member of team 7 or a kage.

Becuase Pain's plan was peace through fear, whereas Obito/Madara's plan was peace through subjugation. Madara never wanted to kill anyone; he wanted to capture everyone in a jutsu that would manifest his version of peace. He still killed plenty of people.

I do agree that Kaguya seemed forced, and I don't have a response for that. I figured Madara would be the final enemy, and the introduction of Kaguya was strange. In hindsight, it was a story element introduced to allow the introduction of the SO6P, and all the story lines that came with him. I enjoyed those story lines, but I can understand if other people didn't.

Originally Posted by JSnow

When naruto first left the "lion turtle" (shout out to the avatar) i thought that naruto was going to be captured by obito and Sasuke was going to save him. I think that would have been a cool twist.

But this makes no sense in the context of Sasuke's character. It wasn't until nearly 100 chapters later, after his talk with Itachi, that Sasuke abandoned his plan of revenge against Konoha. When Naruto left the "lion turtle," Sasuke was still seeking revenge against the village that used his brother/family/clan. If this would have been the outcome, it would have been textbook "plot no jutsu": A character doing something with no motivation, just because that's what needs to happen in the story at that particular moment. Why would Sasuke abandon a plan he's been working on for the entire series, to save a character he's rebuked multiple times before? They weren't friends at this point in the story; Naruto was still trying to "save" Sasuke.

Originally Posted by JSnow

This ending just seems vanilla. There's nothing wrong with it if you like safe and boring. I was just expecting more

I wouldn't say I like "safe and boring," but I like characters to act meaningfully. Characters doing things because it's a "cool twist," is interesting in the moment, but then becomes superfluous, because there's no reasonable way to progress their character from that point. Sasuke saves Naruto; is he a good guy now? A bad guy? Does he still want revenge? Making characters do things for no reason is sloppy storytelling. And, it's something that's been complained about many times, by many people, over the course of this story. It can't suddenly be okay at the end, if it's not okay in the middle or the beginning.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i suppose looking for sense in any of this is a fruitless endeavor. i would assume indra and ashura would have made the most sense. maybe all the duos of their reincarnations? the kages are basically strangers to hagoromo. i guess he has been watching everyone and "knows" everyone, but the villages are a pretty new creation in the scheme of things. there must have been plenty of stronger ninjas than some of the kages. its probably not worth discussing any further though. it's all pretty dumb

its probably not…but for the hell of it, the duos isn't a bad idea at all. i actually would have liked that a lot. would have fit nicely if naruto and sasuke had actually talked to ashura and indra. oh well….
but the kages are still next best. as far as strong ninjas go they are sort of the epitome of strength outside of the sages lineage so they just make sense to me. (ok I'm done

anywho. tho the chapter was a lil soft, narutos farewell to his father was actually quite touching. almost feel really bad for the kid...

[JSnow]

Originally Posted by Quzor

Was it really unexpected with Nagato? What about Gaara from part one? Nagato's story was basically the same, just on a much grander scale. And Nagato destroyed the entire village. Why does he get a pass as a "great guy," but Obito doesn't?

I never said Nagato gets a pass but he did at least use the rinne rebirth to save everyone ( I always wondered what happened to the people crashed under rubble or impaled on something did they die twice? ) but my point was that it was repetitive.

Both of these characters were about redemption. Naruto recognized that they were trying to do what was right in the only way they knew how. It was Naruto's "way of the ninja" that inevitably showed them the error of their ways, and led to their redemption, and Naruto recognizing them as good people is the direct line by which they recognize their errors, and become redeemable.

I know it's his ninja way but again it's just too repetitive for me. I would have like to see them change it up a little.


Becuase Pain's plan was peace through fear, whereas Obito/Madara's plan was peace through subjugation. Madara never wanted to kill anyone; he wanted to capture everyone in a jutsu that would manifest his version of peace. He still killed plenty of people.

that's all true but when your talking about a fight involving all the tailed beasts, Three Uchiha clan members, like twenty different Kage I just thought there would be more collateral damage.

I do agree that Kaguya seemed forced, and I don't have a response for that. I figured Madara would be the final enemy, and the introduction of Kaguya was strange. In hindsight, it was a story element introduced to allow the introduction of the SO6P, and all the story lines that came with him. I enjoyed those story lines, but I can understand if other people didn't.

But this makes no sense in the context of Sasuke's character. It wasn't until nearly 100 chapters later, after his talk with Itachi, that Sasuke abandoned his plan of revenge against Konoha. When Naruto left the "lion turtle," Sasuke was still seeking revenge against the village that used his brother/family/clan. If this would have been the outcome, it would have been textbook "plot no jutsu": A character doing something with no motivation, just because that's what needs to happen in the story at that particular moment. Why would Sasuke abandon a plan he's been working on for the entire series, to save a character he's rebuked multiple times before? They weren't friends at this point in the story; Naruto was still trying to "save" Sasuke.

I didn't mean he would be captured immediately after he left and immediately saved but at some point shorty after he left he would be captured and I figured Sasuke would come to his own conclusion through some other means (new info, an interaction with itachi, some significant event) that helping madara/Obito isn't such a good idea and save naruto. Not because he necessarily like naruto or abandon his plans to destroy the leaf just that, at the moment it would be beneficial to save naruto before Obito could revive the juubi. This turns out to be a moote point since Obito didn't need all of kurama but just a small portion (how convenient)

I wouldn't say I like "safe and boring," but I like characters to act meaningfully. Characters doing things because it's a "cool twist," is interesting in the moment, but then becomes superfluous, because there's no reasonable way to progress their character from that point. Sasuke saves Naruto; is he a good guy now? A bad guy? Does he still want revenge? Making characters do things for no reason is sloppy storytelling. And, it's something that's been complained about many times, by many people, over the course of this story. It can't suddenly be okay at the end, if it's not okay in the middle or the beginning.

So for reasons I just stated above he wouldn't be doing it because it's a cool twist but because it makes sense.

[JSnow]

Sorry about that last post I'm not use to this board.

[HayashiTakara]

I dunno why some are hatin on this ending? I really enjoyed the bitter sweet ending with Madara and Hashirama and Naruto and his dad.

[Eragon]

So, um, we just gonna ignore that Obito killed Neji, Shikamaru's dad and whole lot of other people that probably, maybe didn't deserve to have their faces blasted by biju-dama's?

And he gets to stalk Rin again...yay.

Ugh!

[Hunter]

This outlook on life shouldn't be a surprise to be honest. Both Jiraiya and Itachi explained that how you die is more important than the way you lived.

[Eragon]

Well, its pretty much up there with "washing away your sins in the Ganga river" tier of shit viewpoints then.

I would understand that reasoning if his goals were something I could rationalize. You know, ends justify means. But his ends were just deluded fantasies of a kid who couldn't let go and move on.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

This outlook on life shouldn't be a surprise to be honest. Both Jiraiya and Itachi explained that how you die is more important than the way you lived.

if only Hitler had saved a puppy before he died. sure sainthood right there

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

if only Hitler had saved a puppy before he died. sure sainthood right there

he spared the winners the work of capturing him and giving him food until he rots and dies i his cell doesnt this count

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

if only Hitler had saved a puppy before he died. sure sainthood right there

I happen to think it's horrendously done but if Naruto has one major trope it's the fact that all those broken people can find redemption at the very end regardless of what they've done.
I loath everything about Tobito since his revealed identity but his atonement was a foregone conclusion.

[ranchan13]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I happen to think it's horrendously done but if Naruto has one major trope it's the fact that all those broken people can find redemption at the very end regardless of what they've done.
I loath everything about Tobito since his revealed identity but his atonement was a foregone conclusion.

On the up side, at least Madara doesn't really seem to be seeking redemption.
He still genuinely believes his was the right path. Gotta respect that, even if he does entertain the idea of choosing a different path.


Seriously though, those last words between Hashi and Madara gave me a Professor
X and Magneto feel.

And I loved how Naruto, typical of his character, spoke so much that no one else had a chance to get anything in. I'm sure Minato had more to say to Naruto, but it's more fitting, and better fits Naruto that those words will go unsaid. Naruto's done well enough without his parents, so they don't need to tell him anything.

[Kumagawa]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

if only Hitler had saved a puppy before he died. sure sainthood right there

You know what my favourite 'get into heaven theory' is?

That you need to believe that nothing you did during your life was wrong so Hitler would get into heaven while all those who do good but die thinking they could have done more go to hell. yeah I'm twisted.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I happen to think it's horrendously done but if Naruto has one major trope it's the fact that all those broken people can find redemption at the very end regardless of what they've done.
I loath everything about Tobito since his revealed identity but his atonement was a foregone conclusion.

I think people's problem with Obito's redemption isn't the redemption itself, but that Naruto praised him so much despite everything he did.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by GDB

I think people's problem with Obito's redemption isn't the redemption itself, but that Naruto praised him so much despite everything he did.

just speaking for myself of course, naruto's reaction is a total slap in the face and way worse than the redemption, but i also dislike the redemption and how that was done with naruto mind raping obito. i think the story would have been much better if obito stayed bad and twisted until the end. a brief vader moment at the end showing a glimpse of humanity would have been fine

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by GDB

I think people's problem with Obito's redemption isn't the redemption itself, but that Naruto praised him so much despite everything he did.

And it shouldn't be, he did similarly with almost all people, beginning with Haku and Zabuza, then Neji, Gaara, etc. While fighting the hostile Neji he even went so far as to offer him to change the Hyuuga to free him from the cursed seal. So he tried to help Neji even while he was being threatened by him. This whole thing about Naruto's and Sasuke's extreme personalities was also explained by the Sage when he told that they have inherited the soul of his two sons who were also extreme personalities. Similarly to how Tobito's actions were explained by multiple things: the madness of the Uchiha that can come from "love" as their brain changes, the influence of Madara and even the influence of Black Zetsu. And of course that Obito's personality was really not that of a ninja to begin with, it was more of the opposite. It's kinda like the usual story of a guy born into a family with a tradition that he should continue (here the Uchiha being ninja) but his personality if not suitable for that. As Madara said Obito was a kind person with strong emotions, opposite of the calm or even cold blooded Kakashi.

Kishimoto has the habit of revealing the causes of some unlikely actions several chapters after the fact, i guess thats the primary reason of complaints. For example currently the anime we have an Obito vs Kakashi fight, and in the end Kakashi is wounding him mortally, almost cutting his heart. But later it will be revealed that Madara put a seal on his heart, so he chose this method of breaking the seal so that he can become the 10-tails host. But he just says to Kakashi "i let you win". Of course we complained back then that Kakashi should not be able to win a fight against Obito who had both MS and rinnegan eyes and hashirama's cells. But most of us didn't pay attention to that little remark by Obito, thinking that he is just talking nonsense as usual.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

And it shouldn't be, he did similarly with almost all people, beginning with Haku and Zabuza, then Neji, Gaara, etc. While fighting the hostile Neji he even went so far as to offer him to change the Hyuuga to free him from the cursed seal. So he tried to help Neji even while he was being threatened by him.

you're omitting the 'minor' detail that neji didn't kill naruto's parents (among other things obito did, but just that one fact alone should be enough). naruto was much tougher with nagato who killed jiraiya. he was serious and diplomatic and even then it seemed like a lot for him to forgive nagato. now he's like: "you're the coolest person ever obito!" he was even more serious with neji who did barely anything personal to him aside from mentally bully him. there's a big difference between how naruto used to act in these situations and his man-crush on his parents' murderer

Of course we complained back then that Kakashi should not be able to win a fight against Obito who had both MS and rinnegan eyes and hashirama's cells. But most of us didn't pay attention to that little remark by Obito, thinking that he is just talking nonsense as usual.

we complained but you're comparing apples and oranges. there isn't much of a chance of a mystery in naruto's acceptance of 'good' obito

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you're omitting the 'minor' detail that neji didn't kill naruto's parents (among other things obito did, but just that one fact alone should be enough). naruto was much tougher with nagato who killed jiraiya. he was serious and diplomatic and even then it seemed like a lot for him to forgive nagato. now he's like: "you're the coolest person ever obito!" he was even more serious with neji who did barely anything personal to him aside from mentally bully him. there's a big difference between how naruto used to act in these situations and his man-crush on his parents' murderer

we complained but you're comparing apples and oranges. there isn't much of a chance of a mystery in naruto's acceptance of 'good' obito

pardon my confusion, but i thought this entire time (at least since the mask was broken) that we were dealing with TWO obitos…his old self and the current one. obito wasn't born evil or twisted. he was idealistic, caring, and hopelessly in love with his teammate. he wanted to be hokage. but shit happened along the way, big shit. and sent him spiraling otherwise. both naruto and kakashi spent their respective battles against him trying to reach out to his old self. thats who i saw naruto praising (accepting the fact that all those misdeeds were the result of some pretty powerful environmental factors)…but at the same time current obito spoke out against his own redemption because he felt it wasn't deserved.

and as far as naruto v nagato…naruto's growth at that time was to move beyond revenge. it wouldn't make much sense for him to revert to the cycle of hate at this point in the story imo

Originally Posted by ranchan13

And I loved how Naruto, typical of his character, spoke so much that no one else had a chance to get anything in. I'm sure Minato had more to say to Naruto, but it's more fitting, and better fits Naruto that those words will go unsaid. Naruto's done well enough without his parents, so they don't need to tell him anything.

the scene mirrored the speeches given to naruto by his parents before they died where Kushina took up all the time. i actually appreciated the sage not stalling the release of the edo tensei in this scene. the time pressure increased the weight of the moment significantly for me

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you're omitting the 'minor' detail that neji didn't kill naruto's parents (among other things obito did, but just that one fact alone should be enough). naruto was much tougher with nagato who killed jiraiya. he was serious and diplomatic and even then it seemed like a lot for him to forgive nagato. now he's like: "you're the coolest person ever obito!" he was even more serious with neji who did barely anything personal to him aside from mentally bully him. there's a big difference between how naruto used to act in these situations and his man-crush on his parents' murderer

You forget the fact that Naruto's parent were long dead by this time, it wasn't a fresh wound for him like losing Jiraiya or Hinata. Also after Obito changed he risked his life for Naruto and his friends all the time and he even sacrificed it in the end. Also it became clear that he was just being manipulated. Also the young Obito's words were what Kakashi tought to team 7 in the very beginning of the manga, so if Naruto acknowledges Obito's change back to his old self then Obito became a hero from Kakashi's stories. And Naruto always forgot pretty fast what bad things people did if these people changed for the better. It's not a coincidence he was compared to Jesus by many on this forum, this is a guy who forgives your worst sins if you change for the better. Remember how he was crying for Gaara despite in their last encounter Gaara almost killed his friends and him. I think Obito saved them like 3-4 times until his death.