Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I haven't seen that before...seems interesting, but what should I be looking for in it?

I don't think I asked you to look into it. I merely posted that interview because it had some conflicts with the one you posted recently if comared, especially in regards to how to handle the characters.

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Again, for those of us who can't understand, what would those differences be?

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

I don't think I asked you to look into it. I merely posted that interview because it had some conflicts with the one you posted recently if comared, especially in regards to how to handle the characters.

- Tak

No, I know you didn't...but you've piqued my curiosity as well.

Something like that would take me all day to translate, however, so I'd be grateful if you gave me a target area to focus on.

Thanks!

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Something like that would take me all day to translate, however, so I'd be grateful if you gave me a target area to focus on.

Thanks!

Actually, there is no need, because I translated this before (we all read it), although its been lost somewhere on the forums.

I posted the article because if you look at Kawamori's earlier interviews from Famitsu combined with this one, you will notice a gradual shifting of opinions on character development. I think it is quite obvious which character Kawamori had originally intended to develop further.

However, you recently posted Yoshino's interview, which implies that he intended a rather balanced character development. Not to mention he is taking what was allegedly Ohnogi's credit.

Clearly, based on popular opinion, a balanced character development may not be the case at all. Furthermore, judging from the direction of the show in 18 through 25, it was clear to the audience that the playing field was suddenly shifted. Now, the question remains, who made that shift?

- Tak (Not to mention Yoshino is clearly ignoring popular opinion in the interview, but thats another issue)

[BetoJR]

Oh, I just assumed it was something new, Tak. Since it wasn't the case...

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, there is no need, because I translated this before (we all read it), although its been lost somewhere on the forums.

I posted the article because if you look at Kawamori's earlier interviews from Famitsu combined with this one, you will notice a gradual shifting of opinions on character development. I think it is quite obvious which character Kawamori had originally intended to develop further.

However, you recently posted Yoshino's interview, which implies that he intended a rather balanced character development. Not to mention he is taking what was allegedly Ohnogi's credit.

Clearly, based on popular opinion, a balanced character development may not be the case at all. Furthermore, judging from the direction of the show in 18 through 25, it was clear to the audience that the playing field was suddenly shifted. Now, the question is, who made that shift?

- Tak (Not to mention Yoshino is clearly ignoring popular opinion in the interview, but thats another issue)

I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "balanced character development." A balanced ending, certainly...but character development?

Yoshino barely talks about Ranka at all, and he comes out and says that HIS opinion is that when Alto says to Sheryl, "I'll come back to you," that's Alto's real feelings talking.

Of course, Yoshino then immediately backs away from that, acting like his opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's...but that should fool no one, right? Right.

As for the perceived shift in story, I don't really see it, myself. But even if the story did suddenly become very different, what does that prove? Evangelion got VERY dark VERY suddenly right around episode 16 or 17, and yet no one says that someone new took over writing duties.

And yes, if the Yoshino interview is correct, he is indeed taking credit for things that we previously thought were Ohnogi's. Likewise, Kawamori, in the commentary for episode 18, says that Yoshino "had fun mistreating Sheryl." (吉野さんはシェリルをいじめるのが、本当に楽しかったみたいですね（笑）。) So Kawamori is ALSO sweeping Ohnogi under the rug, ignoring his contribution and giving credit to someone else.

But the liner notes also contain quite a few other errors, including Ohnogi himself telling Bobby that he worked with Yoko Kanno on Macross Plus, when he didn't. Unless someone can show some hard proof that Ohnogi worked on Frontier, I won't believe it. All the evidence we have right now are a magazine that nobody has, a radio show that nobody's heard, and stories and novels that nobody's read.

But I really HOPE someone has the Famitsu article, because that, I believe, is the smoking gun. If it doesn't say what Shaloom says it says, then we'll know for sure it's all a mistake. If it does say so, then we're left with the mystery of why none of the official materials credit Ohnogi with anything.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I've started working on the Episode Commentary for Frontier, by Kawamori, printed in the book 2059: Memories (pages 90-93). I don't know how long it will take me to do them all...maybe a few weeks, if I'm lucky. I want to give special thanks to Renato at Macrossworld, who checked my translations, corrected some errors, and gave useful tips. Of course, if any errors still remain, they're mine and mine alone.

Spoiler for Commentary:

#01 - Close Encounter
Script: Hiroyuki Yoshino / Storyboard: Yasuhito Kikuchi, Shoji Kawamori / Production: Takayuki Tanaka / Art Direction: Yuichi Takahashi, Risa Ebata
In regards to the TV series, we're aiming for it to be the culmination of everything from the Macross series up to this point. The director (Yasuhito) Kikuchi and I did the storyboards ourselves, and we were able to put in all the little items we wanted to see. With the two of us doing it, 20 minutes just wasn't long enough! (laughs) We tried many experiments in the first episode. The parts that worked out well we brushed up and developed further in the following story.

#02 - Hard Chase
Script: Hiroyuki Yoshino / Storyboard: Yasuhito Kikuchi, Shoji Kawamori / Production: Kiyoshi Matsuda / Art Direction: Masahiro Sekiguchi, Takashi Ikari
We tried Ranka singing, and Sheryl stepping in to add her her own voice, and I thought "That's it!" Apparently (Yoko) Kanno had the same response during the recording. I did have a feeling it would go all right, but I actually shiver when I hear them sing together. The was when Kanno-san began rapidly sending me duet songs. (laughs).

#03 - On Your Marks
Script: Hiroyuki Yoshino / Storyboard and Production: Takao Abo / Art Direction: Futoshi Fujikawa
Well, someone always gets locked in at some point in Macross (laughs). While we'd had people be trapped before, we'd never done it with three people. The "Tuna Bun" design was a labor of love for our scriptwriter (Hiroyuki) Yoshino and the artist (laughs). The "chest portion" of the episode was described by Yoshino, and the artist decided to imagine what it would look like. Griffith Park is a reference to the landscape of the Griffith Park Observatory in L.A.

#04 - Miss Macross
Script: Hiroyuki Yoshino / Storyboard: Kazuki Akane / Production: Takahiro Majima / Art Direction: Ryouma Ebata
The main points here are really Ranka singing "My Boyfriend is a Pilot" and Klan Klang. Because Klan's destructive power had been assumed from the beginning, it was decided not to put her in the first three episodes. For the "My Boyfriend is~" section, the young animators took charge. Thanks to these artists, the characters move swiftly, even in something like a singing scene, which is usually rather restrained (laughs).

#05 - Star Date
Script:Hiroyuki Yoshino / Storyboard: Yasuhito Kikuchi / Production: Takayuki Fukuda / Art Diection: Hiroki Marufuji
The scouting trip to San Francisco and Las Vegas, accompanied by Director Kikuchi, provided a terribly charming background for Sheryl. I can completely understand why people would fall all over themselves for her (laughs). In order to give Ranka, having just failed in the Miss Macross Frontier Contest, her debut into the entertainment world, we made the street concert scene. We were thinkng about what would push her to her chance to sing; of course it would be Alto's paper airplane...

More coming soon. And again, I'll post up the scans and the typed-out version if anyone asks for them.

And...um...any documentation of Ohnogi's involvement yet? If he really worked on the show, SOMEone must have SOMEthing...right?

Once again, thank you Yot-chan for the hard work and sharing this information with us. Well things seem to be unraveling on all the liner notes that we were exposed to earlier but I still find it hard to believe that someone would go to these lengths. Right now, I'll put my faith on the scan of the Famitsu interview to see if the information was correct.

[cheesie]

If nobody could find the references and original sources to back up the liner notes that were posted a while ago, then these are pretty much unconfirmed transcripts, and it's best if we could treat it as such.

To be honest, I felt there were a couple of things that didn't add up when I read the liner notes, but I just brushed it aside as director/producer whims. If nobody could find anything referring to Ohnogi's involvement, then it's highly likely the interviews are fabricated, for reasons that are unimaginable, given the huge length of the transcripts. That is, unless the original writer of the transcripts provide the source.

With that said though, magnuskn, despite this issue, thanks for taking your time to going through the trouble of signing up and translating the transcripts, and there's no way you could've known about this issue (I don't think anyone has reason to suspect it for reasons already mentioned.) If these are fake, which I'm personally treating it as such, then it's not that much of a waste of time as you've proven yourself to be a commendable shipmate, and I could bump Westlo off and promote you to Cabin Boy. Its biggest advantage is that you could do all sorts of nice things to our prisoner that we're keeping in our basement, Sir Dex.

As for how the Alto and Sheryl relationship fares, despite how we've received quite a bit of 'insight' based on that interview, I don't believe anything has even changed, as the strength of that relationship was never based on the interview transcripts, but what the TV series had shown. Whether Ohnogi was involved or not, it didn't change the fact that their direction was clear-cut and straight-forward, it earned the love of many fans everywhere, and enjoyed a flourishing fandom. At best, it eradicated the senseless bashing on Kawamori and the unusual take of Ranka!Kawamori vs Sheryl!Ohnogi, and at worst, causing the disappointment of some rather memorable comments (such as Risa Ebata, as that was personally my favourite) So as the genuine translations are starting to pour out, let's just see how things had really went behind the scenes. ) Just my take on that particular issue.

Even more, I certainly didn't expect to find out about a dirty version of Episode 22 floating around, waiting to be released, and that is more than enough to compensate for it.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by cheesie

With that said though, magnuskn, despite this issue, thanks for taking your time to going through the trouble of signing up and translating the transcripts, and there's no way you could've known about this issue (I don't think anyone has reason to suspect it for reasons already mentioned.) If these are fake, which I'm personally treating it as such, then it's not that much of a waste of time as you've proven yourself to be a commendable shipmate, and I could bump Westlo off and promote you to Cabin Boy. Its biggest advantage is that you could do all sorts of nice things to our prisoner that we're keeping in our basement, Sir Dex.

Hm, I´m not much into torture of helpless prisoners, thanks.

But, yeah, it is quite disappointing. It took me about two to three whole days to do all the translations and I was quite emotional about some of the stuff in them... them turning out to be a hoax is really quite a blow. As fan-fiction, they are very nice, but as something packacked as legitimate news, it really is infuriating to me.

Originally Posted by cheesie

As for how the Alto and Sheryl relationship fares, despite how we've received quite a bit of 'insight' based on that interview, I don't believe anything has even changed, as the strength of that relationship was never based on the interview transcripts, but what the TV series had shown. Whether Ohnogi was involved or not, it didn't change the fact that their direction was clear-cut and straight-forward, it earned the love of many fans everywhere, and enjoyed a flourishing fandom. At best, it eradicated the senseless bashing on Kawamori and the unusual take of Ranka!Kawamori vs Sheryl!Ohnogi, and at worst, causing the disappointment of some rather memorable comments (such as Risa Ebata, as that was personally my favourite) So as the genuine translations are starting to pour out, let's just see how things had really went behind the scenes. ) Just my take on that particular issue.

Even more, I certainly didn't expect to find out about a dirty version of Episode 22 floating around, waiting to be released, and that is more than enough to compensate for it.

Yeah, the "liner notes" not being true doesn´t change how the series did progress. And I, too, welcome the death of the "Kawamori = HippyVirginDouche" meme.

[BetoJR]

That makes three of us.

But, like cheesie, I'm saddened as of now, because of some of the smaller tidbits, just like the Risa Ebata moments she described. Seems we're all a bit gullible - or, maybe, we didn't take into account some of the more imaginative people around the web...

[abynormal]

I'm also very disappointed in what is turning out to be a hoax, as those notes were very memorable and fleshed out a lot about the characters we all know and love. My personal favorite was the bit about Grace and Ranka's father having a short-lived affair. It added a whole new dimension to the conflict.

It does, however, redeem Kawamori for having a bigger part in the development of Sheryl's character and her relationship with Alto than we thought. For that I am kinda thankful, even if he did botch Ranka's development still.

Nevertheless, anyone who abandons the SkullFairy over this deserved the plank anyway!

[justavisitor]

Well magnuskn, like cheesie said, despite the "fact" that now seems the linear note is fake, I still have to say thank you to you for taking valuable time to translate those stuff and post them here...I know you really want to contribute, and who knows, maybe those linear notes are indeed real, or they only mess up the name??

by the way magnuskn, did you ask this question in macross world, ask the person where you get the linear note from and it should be much more clear??

The last thing I wanna say is, as I always say in my old post, audiences shouldn't need interview to get the "insight" of the story. You think you got the message from this story and you should believe in it...you don't need the interview to prove you are right/wrong and someone else is wrong/right

(Yot-Chan, don't misunderstand me lol, I am not saying your material is worthless, I thank you for bringing up those scans and material, it's just that if you read my old post, I always suggest that interview is a welcome source to read, but one shouldn't treat it like a bible to force others to change the way of what they think on a particular show)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, the "liner notes" not being true doesn´t change how the series did progress. And I, too, welcome the death of the "Kawamori = HippyVirginDouche" meme.

When I nicknamed him Hippimori, I was reminded of his previous works, such as Aquarion. As long as shows like that exists, he is a hippy douche.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

I'm writing a rather large essay about this which I'll eventually post at MacrossWorld (I need a good scan of the Famitsu Interview to finish it properly, however), but you can view the frustrating journey for proof here: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/inde...dpost&p=732243 (Over there, I'm "Gubaba.")

It goes to pretty much the end of the thread, and bishopcruz and I basically say to each each, "Did you find anything?" "Nope." We moved the conversation to PM after a while because, again, we didn't want to call anyone a liar publicly (and I still don't). I researched the Ohnogi "novels," bishopcruz took on the "radio show."

Magnuskn has also been a great help, not only in translating the liner notes, but also in talking to Shaloom for me. And to his credit, he helped out even when he didn't think I was right. It would've been easy for anyone just to put their fingers in their ears and say "Lalala, I'm not listening!" but he didn't do that.

The big problem is evidence. Shaloom lists a lot of obscure sources, and when asked about where we would find stuff, he would give answers that make them even more obscure. For example, I scoured amazon.co.jp for the Ohnogi novels, and found nothing. Bishopcruz asked Shaloom about them for me, and Shaloom said they were published in "magazines like Animage and Out" between 1986 and 1988, and were never collected in book form. Bishopcruz asked which issues they were in, and Shaloom said they were serialized, so that a lot of issues from that time had a little bit of each story. Old Animage issues are not too hard to find, but Out is rare and expensive. Luckily, some MacrossWorld members had some issues of Animage from that time, and said that there were no stories in them.

The one that REALLY gets me, though, is the story "Today I wanted to Give You..." which the liner notes state is in the "Studio Nue Entertainment Bible." There are two volumes of the Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles. I searched for them on Ebay, and bought 'em (not too expensive, but not cheap, either). There was no such story in either book.

But yeah, the big question is why? I think someone would have to be pathological to make all this stuff up, and I'm not exaggerating. But that may be the case, since among my other searches, I found one where Shaloom had started a Macross radio show, and boasted that he had a certificate of authorization from Big West. I don't know how that turned out, but it sounds fishy.

Anyway, as I said, I think Famitsu is the smoking gun. Saying "I can't find anything to prove this" is not the same as saying "It's false." At this point, to me, it seems HIGHLY unlikely, unless the rest of the staff got together to eradicate all record of Ohnogi's participation. Or perhaps he didn't WANT credit, but not getting credit usually doesn't involve saying things like "Yoshino had fun mistreating Sheryl." Besides, what kind of person who didn't want credit would go on a radio show and claim credit?

So while I'm 95% sure Ohnogi had nothing to do with the show, I'll wait until a good scan of Famitsu shows up before I really pass judgment.

Oh, and I've finished the Kawamori Commentaries up to episode 11. Renato at MacrossWorld will be checking them for mistakes, and then I'll post 'em.

Again, if anyone wants the Japanese text and the scans of the pages, just let me know.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by abynormal

Nevertheless, anyone who abandons the SkullFairy over this deserved the plank anyway!

Well, that would be the ultimate douchey move, wouldn't it? Just because something that came out after the series ended turns out to be false, there's no reason to go back on your positions held previously, is there?

And, Tak, really, what's your problem with Aquarion?

[Tabris]

I just noticed that Nene was voiced by Aya Hirano.

A bit late there.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Well magnuskn, like cheesie said, despite the "fact" that now seems the linear note is fake, I still have to say thank you to you for taking valuable time to translate those stuff and post them here...I know you really want to contribute, and who knows, maybe those linear notes are indeed real, or they only mess up the name??

by the way magnuskn, did you ask this question in macross world, ask the person where you get the linear note from and it should be much more clear??

I talked with Shaloom about this in the past, but since I don´t have the excellent sourcing which Yot-Chan has, I was easily bamboozled with references to shows I didn´t know much about in the first place. ^^

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I talked with Shaloom about this in the past, but since I don´t have the excellent sourcing which Yot-Chan has, I was easily bamboozled with references to shows I didn´t know much about in the first place. ^^

I don't think anyone should place any blame on you. Shaloom cited a lot of obscure sources, and a lot of them are still unverified (and possibly true).

For example, he says early in the notes that Ranka's backpack was based on a design y the "Macross Attack Team." The M.A.T. was a doujin group that came out with three or four issues of a fanzine called "Sky Angels" in 1983. Some of their information was later compiled into a book, but not all of it.

So, it's a fanzine, probably produced by college students more than 25 years ago. Anyone could say anything about the contents, and no one would have any way of verifying it. Proving something like that wrong is well-nigh impossible. Shaloom DOES have a lot of rare stuff, however, so perhaps he really does have a copy of it.

Who knows? And who can say he knows? And who knows enough about the Macross Attack Team to even ask the question in the first place?

Now multiply that problem times forty, and you've got Shaloom's liner notes. Eventually, you just kind of nod and accept it.

As I said before, it was only my burning desire for Macross novels that pushed me to research it...

[cheesie]

The only Famitsu article Shaloom translated was originally sourced here, although it seems to lead to a dead end - since I can't speak spanish, I'm not sure if this is a locked or deleted thread. It would be helpful for either to be confirmed.

Even if it's deleted, mentions and quotations of the commentaries first surfaced here on 2008-10-08, which got the attention of the forum. That gives a good starting point in tracing back issues before that date; you would be tracing seven Famitsu magazines that were published between 3rd of April and 10th of October. To narrow it down even further, the article describes fan reactions on Episode 24, so if the magazine is serialized monthly, then you it would be the October issue (referring to the month when it came out, not the Japan's magazine date release), the reason being that scans of the September issue were already spotted one day before Episode 24's airing time.

If the magazine is published weekly (hence Weekly Famitsu), then you should be looking for the issues listed here : Weekly Famitsu No. 1031 (2008 09/05) - No. 1035 (2008 10/03).

I'm withholding names and link of the post so I don't subject the user to attention.

[justavisitor]

magnuskn and Yot-chan, I just want to make it very clear that I don't place any blame on anyone...my question to magnuskn was whether he contacted Shaloom again after Yot-chan made a breakthrough on this issue. But from Yot-chan's post, it seems that Shaloom doesn't quite know the whole thing either...

Seems like this saga is about to be over, until anyone can find other proof to prove otherwise...so for now the verdict is: (using the voice of a judge with a hammer in hand) Ohnogi doesn't involve with MF at all, besides ep 10...and everyone should add rep to Yot-chan for discovering this issue XD