AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired A-L > GATE

Notices

View Poll Results: GATE - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 2 11.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 5 27.78%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 9 50.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 5.56%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 5.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2016-03-13, 04:22   Link #61
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
She isn't fighting a war. She wants the destruction of the entire Empire. If she wants to fight a war she could just kill the prince.

There is big difference between justice and revenge. She crossed way past justice into revenge when she wants the annihilation of the country.
Why ever would she want to stop at Zorzal? He didn't conquer her people on his own. Killing him won't destroy his country's war machine. The Empire, itself, is her enemy.

Indeed, I'd flip that around. Killing Zorzal would be for entirely personal reasons. You don't wage war on a single person. Destroying the Empire... is still revenge. But it's revenge with scope beyond what was done to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Quote
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

It is actually one segment, and a small segment, of the troops that make up the Oprichnina, who are the ones doing the massacring. The normal troops actually are not too thrilled about doing any of this, but they fear for their lives if they disobey. This again, is the fault of leadership, which will eventually have to pay for their actions.

The only reason Tyuule sent Bouro was a set up to cause the empire to battle against the JSDF. It was really not to protect her at all.

The empire usually would not hurt their own citizens at all. It's Tyuule manipulations that invented a law that created the Oprichnina to allow the killing of its own citizens for any reasons.

As for conquering, well, that's on leadership again. They decide to do it or not. The citizens are not at fault their emperor wants to conquer, so why are they to blame and allowed to be murdered for the sake of Tyuule's revenge? What justification does she have to do evil to others that are not even involved?

Sure, leadership can be accused of bringing it upon themselves, but the empire itself cannot be put to blame. That's genocide you're talking about.
The Oprichnina and its way didn't appear in a vacuum. It's the Empire's own brutality that allowed that. It wouldn't normally treat its own citizens this way? No, but it would treat conquered people like that. They just get a taste - a very small taste - of their own medicine. It's a bit as if the US police started using Predator drones to assassinate suspected criminals. And whoever happened to be around. Yes, it would be evil, it would have to be stopped, and so on. The collateral damage definitely wouldn't deserve what they got. But at the same time, I'm pretty sure a lot of Iraqi would think of the moral outrage as a bit late.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rladls2121 View Post
I thought without hurting civilians is possible in this series since modern world possessing technology that is heaven and earth difference compared to the Special Region.

But SDF still not using the very current models of weapons and using old models to as disposables because it saves money was it?

I wonder if Japan had some change of heart as time passed, exploring the place, politicians receiving many kinds of reports about their unknown world?
Their objective was not originally to make deep relation with other countries in the beginning they set foot on the Special Region was it?
1. They're still using weapons centuries or millenias ahead of anything the Empire has. Don't quibble over a few decades.
2. You vastly overestimate the precision of modern weapons (whether 1970s modern or 2010s modern) if you think they can wage war in earnest and not kill any civilian.
Anh_Minh is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 04:59   Link #62
quigonkenny
Sav'aaq!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by rladls2121 View Post
I thought without hurting civilians is possible in this series since modern world possessing technology that is heaven and earth difference compared to the Special Region.

But SDF still not using the very current models of weapons and using old models to as disposables because it saves money was it?

I wonder if Japan had some change of heart as time passed, exploring the place, politicians receiving many kinds of reports about their unknown world?
Their objective was not originally to make deep relation with other countries in the beginning they set foot on the Special Region was it?
When it comes to precision, the older weapons actually have the advantage. A lot easier to kill the hostages in the crossfire when you're spraying bullets rather than swinging a sword. The "collateral damage" of wars in the past was often intentional. To break the spirit of the foe and make them not want to fight you. And in a day and age when army membership was compulsory, killing a few women and children who might later bear or be new soldiers was a logical idea.

As soon as Zorzal realizes that the JSDF is going to try to avoid civilian casualties, he'll start filling his barracks and military formations with them, and force the JSDF to fight up close and personal. Their weaponry will still give them some advantages, but with a lot of civilians in the crossfire, it may limit the JSDF enough for the Empire's numerical advantage to tip the scales. Zorzal won't have thought it out to that degree, of course, but even he should be able to tell that the JSDF isn't attacking where civilians are.
__________________
FGO Info: (JP) 055835281 | クワイガンケニー ==== (EN) 952525630 | quigonkenny
quigonkenny is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 05:04   Link #63
Brother Coa
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Holy Terra
Quote:
Originally Posted by rladls2121 View Post
I thought without hurting civilians is possible in this series since modern world possessing technology that is heaven and earth difference compared to the Special Region.
Ugh...no....

This is war, in war civilian casualties are normal thing since many weapons that we have have area-of-effect damage. Besides, why would JSDF be bothering wit hthem? Any modern military knows that in combat engagements civilian casualties are high possibility, they just try their best to minimize that.

Quote:
But SDF still not using the very current models of weapons and using old models to as disposables because it saves money was it?
There is not big of a difference, any trained soldier can use guns from either 60's or 90's the same way.
Brother Coa is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 05:19   Link #64
thundrakkon
Anime-Only Viewer
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Quote
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I'm going to give an example to try to make sense of this. Say, for example, that China goes to Tibet and creates mass death and destruction. Now, does this give a Tibetan leader the right to plot and destroy China and all its citizens as just punishment? China has been willing to kill its own citizens in the recent past (Tieman Square). Does that justify if a Tibetan destroys it in return, while causing mass death to civilians intentionally? It's the same situation with the empire.
__________________
<img src=http://forums.animesuki.com/picture.php?albumid=4341&pictureid=57813 border=0 alt= />
thundrakkon is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 05:22   Link #65
ValvraveTruth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Singapore
What really amaze me is that every episodes the forum members will post up many different justification & analysis, why this and why not like that. I mean how do you even know what the people many centuries ago even thinking? Our "logic" won't work at those time. In the end we just imagine, assume and presume.

Are you just saying the above stuff based on reading a few newspaper and books? website readings with minimum facts and proofs? or your information, thoughts and justices are always right and everyone is wrong?
Do you have the education/studies of political science, international relations, ealier centuries psychology/ideology and military defence? Even if you are the masters of these also can't fully justify. GATE Jietai maybe very similiar to what early centuries to modern in our real world, in the end this is still a story made by the author with his knowledge/research and his own justice.

Come on and lets get back to normal anime forum conversation shall we. Something like poor Pina and next epsiodes the paratroopers are going to be cool.
Of course we are free to say anything and ask why this and why that, but don't turn it into a real argument.
__________________
Aikatsu Forever
ValvraveTruth is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 06:38   Link #66
Yan3242
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
I wonder if Japan had some change of heart as time passed, exploring the place, politicians receiving many kinds of reports about their unknown world?
No worries, sugawara and sherry is on their way to do so
Yan3242 is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 07:11   Link #67
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValvraveTruth View Post
What really amaze me is that every episodes the forum members will post up many different justification & analysis, why this and why not like that. I mean how do you even know what the people many centuries ago even thinking? Our "logic" won't work at those time. In the end we just imagine, assume and presume.

Are you just saying the above stuff based on reading a few newspaper and books? website readings with minimum facts and proofs? or your information, thoughts and justices are always right and everyone is wrong?
Do you have the education/studies of political science, international relations, ealier centuries psychology/ideology and military defence? Even if you are the masters of these also can't fully justify. GATE Jietai maybe very similiar to what early centuries to modern in our real world, in the end this is still a story made by the author with his knowledge/research and his own justice.

Come on and lets get back to normal anime forum conversation shall we.
This is normal anime forum conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
When it comes to precision, the older weapons actually have the advantage. A lot easier to kill the hostages in the crossfire when you're spraying bullets rather than swinging a sword. The "collateral damage" of wars in the past was often intentional. To break the spirit of the foe and make them not want to fight you. And in a day and age when army membership was compulsory, killing a few women and children who might later bear or be new soldiers was a logical idea.
I think you're underestimating how nasty sieges could be.

Quote:
As soon as Zorzal realizes that the JSDF is going to try to avoid civilian casualties, he'll start filling his barracks and military formations with them, and force the JSDF to fight up close and personal. Their weaponry will still give them some advantages, but with a lot of civilians in the crossfire, it may limit the JSDF enough for the Empire's numerical advantage to tip the scales. Zorzal won't have thought it out to that degree, of course, but even he should be able to tell that the JSDF isn't attacking where civilians are.
Since those civilians would be the families of the soldiers using them as shields, you might get a mutiny on your hands...

Besides, the JSDF doesn't need to kill the enemy soldiers. If they retreat to their barracks they can just lay siege to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Quote
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I'm going to give an example to try to make sense of this. Say, for example, that China goes to Tibet and creates mass death and destruction. Now, does this give a Tibetan leader the right to plot and destroy China and all its citizens as just punishment? China has been willing to kill its own citizens in the recent past (Tieman Square). Does that justify if a Tibetan destroys it in return, while causing mass death to civilians intentionally? It's the same situation with the empire.
I don't know about "right". Technically she doesn't have the right to kill Zorzal either, but a lot of you who are horrified by her actions sounded like you'd be cool with murder and regicide (is it another word for the crown prince/acting regent?).

My point is that, considering what's been done to her and her people, and who did it, it's understandable that her anger encompasses more than just Zorzal. And that the bulk of the blame remains with the decision makers. She may have advised and run errands, but it's Zorzal and his followers who ordered the purges. And they did so with their eyes open, as were those of the senators and kings who for centuries built up the empire into what it is today, making a system that would allow for such abuses.

That's also why I mentioned Noriko earlier as a separate case. The attempt on her life is on Tyulle in a way what happened to Pina or Sherry's family aren't.
Anh_Minh is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 07:57   Link #68
Benigmatica
Deadpan Rambler
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Send a message via Yahoo to Benigmatica
That was a close call for Lelei le Lelena. Had she not wore armor plate underneath her magician garb, Lelei would be a goner at the hands of Shandy!

Meanwhile, Zolzal treating Piña like a slave was so awful that it sickens me! I hope that guy would get his comeuppance soon!
Benigmatica is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 10:32   Link #69
Yan3242
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Good thing shandy is kinda.... Dumb? i have no idea how she end up as soldier

Pina is the youngest and if they follow medieval thinking, that pretty much make her chance to get the throne is close to 0%, pina also a woman which mean (usually) end up become the wife of neighboor leader to "strenghten relationship", and pina doesnt like zorzal yet she still show some degree of respect to that idiot, that take a lot of patience and Wisdom (if i were zorzal brother i stab that idiot back out of rage).

If zorzal could use his brain for a bit, treating her normally is probably the best course of action (until the shitstorm happen), zorzal pretty much "seal the deal" the moment he strip pina title and make her slave because appearantly that idiot forgot that his little sister has bff status with semi immortal war goddess, a dragon killer, 2 capable elf and han solo.

Last edited by Yan3242; 2016-03-13 at 10:47.
Yan3242 is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 21:59   Link #70
quigonkenny
Sav'aaq!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan3242 View Post
If zorzal could use his brain for a bit, treating her normally is probably the best course of action (until the shitstorm happen), zorzal pretty much "seal the deal" the moment he strip pina title and make her slave because appearantly that idiot forgot that his little sister has bff status with semi immortal war goddess, a dragon killer, 2 capable elf and Han Solo GARcher.
Fixed that for you.
__________________
FGO Info: (JP) 055835281 | クワイガンケニー ==== (EN) 952525630 | quigonkenny
quigonkenny is offline  
Old 2016-03-13, 22:10   Link #71
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't know about "right". Technically she doesn't have the right to kill Zorzal either, but a lot of you who are horrified by her actions sounded like you'd be cool with murder and regicide (is it another word for the crown prince/acting regent?).
Killing kings and princes is never considered that immoral, purely because it is part of the risk of the job. If a prince couldn't prevent himself from being assassinated, then he was never going to be good enough to be king.

Royals are not chosen by the people, so they only get to keep their position through the power of the sword. So that is why it is generally also fair to remove a Royal through the power of the sword. This is what differentiates between a monarchy and other systems of government. Killing a ruler is part of the system, the equivalent of being voted out of office.

England only set up the succession rules for their Monarchy because the constant civil wars were getting out of hand. Normally you get to have a crown on your head because you have the larger army, no other reason.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline  
Old 2016-03-15, 16:21   Link #72
Top Sergeant
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: By that dark and bloody river called Ohio.
Age: 59
This show has paid homage to Apoclypse Now! with the helicopter assault on Italica and plated Ride of the Valkyries as they came in.

It would be awesome if the played the theme from Band of Brothers as the paratroopers descend on the Palace next episode!
__________________
The sword that takes life gives life.
-Japanese proverb
Top Sergeant is offline  
Old 2016-03-15, 18:06   Link #73
quigonkenny
Sav'aaq!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Sergeant View Post
This show has paid homage to Apoclypse Now! with the helicopter assault on Italica and plated Ride of the Valkyries as they came in.

It would be awesome if the played the theme from Band of Brothers as the paratroopers descend on the Palace next episode!
Probably not. The Apocalypse Now reference was in the manga, so it was probably in the novel as well. As long as the author has been working on GATE (novels starting in 2010, webnovel years before), BoB seems a little too new, and is nowhere near as iconic as Apocalypse Now, anyway.

There's also the minor fact that the Japanese fought on the side that was against the characters in BoB. That would be like American soldiers riding into battle playing a song from some movie the Germans made about the bombers in the London Blitz. We're all allies now, but still...
__________________
FGO Info: (JP) 055835281 | クワイガンケニー ==== (EN) 952525630 | quigonkenny

Last edited by quigonkenny; 2016-03-15 at 18:17.
quigonkenny is offline  
Old 2016-03-15, 18:41   Link #74
Brother Coa
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Holy Terra
Anyway, some great reference would be awesome to see again.

They can even go with the old paratrooper song and make it awesome.
Brother Coa is offline  
Old 2016-03-16, 11:47   Link #75
Yan3242
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
I cant imagine how big their base right now, i remember in the early season 1 it look like a standard HQ size, then they have the civilian that run away from the dragon so they build houses beside their base... I take it their base is now a size of small (outskirt) city?

if you think all those locals that lived together with sdf, they must be getting used with the military routine and the 21st century stuff right now (loud noise like jet engine, gunshot, etc), those people might be better canditate to be sent to the other side of gate
Yan3242 is offline  
Old 2016-03-16, 11:53   Link #76
Pen3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by rladls2121 View Post
But SDF still not using the very current models of weapons and using old models to as disposables because it saves money was it?
I don't think modern tanks and bombs would make a difference in their actions so far because its all about diplomacy.
Pen3 is offline  
Old 2016-03-16, 19:35   Link #77
Yan3242
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
But SDF still not using the very current models of weapons and using old models to as disposables because it saves money was it?
Its not just save money, they dont need to go high end stuff because using the current one pretty much yield the same result, their current firepower proof more than enough to handle them, anymore would be just overkill and in the eye of certain people (gullible person, critics, sensitive press, etc) could resulting jsdf become the "bad guy" in public majority.
Yan3242 is offline  
Old 2016-03-16, 20:55   Link #78
~Yami~
a random Indonesian otaku
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Xanadu
Age: 32
I hope next episode would be something worth to watch as Zorzal would face great despair
Luckily, his scheme isn't put on effect yet *the thing when they want to lie to villages around Arnus*

I feel really bad for Pina... must be a great shock for her
Her other brother has done something smart after all

Pied Piper must be a very formidable enemy as his victim still could not realize that they are tricked until now.. it's funny when Pina's subordinate was easily blinded and only could see one way to do thing rather than realizing that they have "Dragon Killer" team in her side that could easily save Pina from Zorzal
~Yami~ is offline  
Old 2016-03-17, 19:04   Link #79
nojay
Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan3242 View Post
I cant imagine how big their base right now, i remember in the early season 1 it look like a standard HQ size, then they have the civilian that run away from the dragon so they build houses beside their base... I take it their base is now a size of small (outskirt) city?
The airbase and runway(s) are outside the main perimeter, the "star fort" structure around the Gate.
Spoiler for manga reference:
__________________
nojay is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.