Danganronpa 3: Future Arc - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I have another theory as to what Tengan referred to:

It is a common setting in anime that being around talented people is rather despairing for non-talented hard working people who just can't beat them despite working way harder towards their goal then said taleneted people.

If you take it that way - each one of them is indeed deapair rather than hope. And if we think about it too - the main course is always portrayed colorful whie the reserve course is being portrayed dull, grey and colorless as if there was no hope there to begin with.

This reminds me of that time Chisa talked about how the 6 months she did spend in the Reverse course were the worst days in her life. If I recall that right, that was the first sign she wasn't as pure as we thought her to be.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Alpha Knight

This reminds me of that time Chisa talked about how the 6 months she did spend in the Reverse course were the worst days in her life. If I recall that right, that was the first sign she wasn't as pure as we thought her to be.

Given her behavior in the main course I recon it was way worse for the students .
But yeah that scene made it pretty obvious she has something to do wwith the agencies in future - that outburst there is more something I would have expected from Junko rather than her.
Not that it wasn't obvious enough she was involved from thje beginning - that just pretty much set the deal.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Given her behavior in the main course I recon it was way worse for the students .
But yeah that scene made it pretty obvious she has something to do wwith the agencies in future - that outburst there is more something I would have expected from Junko rather than her.
Not that it wasn't obvious enough she was involved from thje beginning - that just pretty much set the deal.

On that note, there is just no way Kirigiri failed to notice those photos. The Ultimate Detective wouldn't miss out such an important clue, no way that could happen. No, what the hell I'm saying, not a single professional detective would examine a body and fail to notice that. So either she found them but kept it to herself, or the photos were placed there at a certain point after she fininished examining the body.

I'm smelling bait and switch.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by bonsobon

If you're talking about Kyoko then that's pointless. Taking a drug to counteract the sleeping agent wouldn't stop her from being poisoned, meaning she'd die anyway and wouldn't wake up regardless. Unless you're talking about having that drug by mistake instead of the antidote because she couldn't tell the difference from the bottles being labelled the same or something. In which case things still end up the same way.

No, you silly, obviously I mean that she took it so she'd be able to act during the night phase. XD

She'd be able to gather information and write it down.

[Homura7]

If it were that easy everybody would have done it. Seiko could have made medicine that prevents sleep, but alas, the killer is no idiot.

[Marina2]

About Ruruka' death.

The fact that her corpse state is different from other victims of attacker might support the idea of different attacker or the attacker was no longer able to hang the corpse up high because he/she lacked of something to do it.

Originally Posted by Alpha Knight

On that note, there is just no way Kirigiri failed to notice those photos. The Ultimate Detective wouldn't miss out such an important clue, no way that could happen. No, what the hell I'm saying, not a single professional detective would examine a body and fail to notice that. So either she found them but kept it to herself, or the photos were placed there at a certain point after she fininished examining the body.

I'm smelling bait and switch.

Yet, you think Kyouko, the Ultimate Detective won't notice that Chisa corpse might be fake?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marina2

About Ruruka' death.

The fact that her corpse state is different from other victims of attacker might support the idea of different attacker or the attacker was no longer able to hang the corpse up high because he/she lacked of something to do it.




Yet, you think Kyouko, the Ultimate Detective won't notice that Chisa corpse might be fake?

Assuming my Zed Joke is right - the state of her corpse would be fully explained
Also now that there is a chance that the entire thing is set at Jabberok - VR also returns as a possibility.

As for Chisa's 'corpse' - thats a really easy one to explain:
I referred to this a few times already, bu the phase where her body got examined and stabbed are not the same one.
Kirigiri could have very well examined Chisa in stupor like sleep while Munataka would have already stabbed a fake corpse.
And no she wouldn't have been able to differ it from actual death, depending on the method used to put Chisa into the stupor.

[stray]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Also now that there is a chance that the entire thing is set at Jabberok - VR also returns as a possibility.

Wait how does the Jabberwock theory even work now after the post credit scene?

For the record I still think Sakakura is the nighttime attacker. As far as the organizer I think I'm down to Monaka coming back from space though... unless despair!Nanami pans out.

There's one dark horse I really want to be mastermind but it seems improbable.

[DMurphy]

I think it's very unlikely that there's any kind of 'sleep like death' or 'fake corpse' shenanigans afoot.

Neither of these things have any precedent for existing in the Danganronpa universe, and 'a substance that can make you appear dead while still being alive, and which holds up under the examination of an experienced detective' doesn't exist in real life either (and nor do convincingly fake corpses that stand up to close scrutiny).

At the same time, though, there must be something different about Chisa's body -- because Kyoko says after examining her that once she examines Gozu, she should be able to figure out the case. Ergo, Chisa's body must in some fashion differ from that of the other victims', but it has to be a difference which is only apparent, or which only assumes a clear meaning, on comparison.

My immediate thought is 'Chisa's body shows signs that her wounds are self-inflicted.' That's something that Kyoko might investigate by checking the other bodies -- because if they have self-inflicted wounds, then it would indicate something entirely different than if just Chisa had them.

I'm not sure you can make a compelling case for Chisa actually being alive, because that would require plot devices that have as yet never been introduced into the franchise's canon, but there's a lot of compelling evidence to suggest that Chisa set in motion a chain of events and then killed herself -- including the fact that, as we've been very viscerally reminded in Despair arc, Despairs violently killing themselves is a Thing.

[stray]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

I'm not sure you can make a compelling case for Chisa actually being alive, because that would require plot devices that have as yet never been introduced into the franchise's canon, but there's a lot of compelling evidence to suggest that Chisa set in motion a chain of events and then killed herself -- including the fact that, as we've been very viscerally reminded in Despair arc, Despairs violently killing themselves is a Thing.

Hmmmmm. That's kind of an interesting theory. Or maybe moreso it would be interesting if it played out that way.

I'll concede that Chisa was definitely involved but I still think she was at most the smelly sister in the arrangement. There still has to be a true mastermind out there...

[Homura7]

Togami stated the Killing Game had a connection with Jabberwock island.

I'm leaving this here just in case you have forgotten.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by stray

Wait how does the Jabberwock theory even work now after the post credit scene?

For the record I still think Sakakura is the nighttime attacker. As far as the organizer I think I'm down to Monaka coming back from space though... unless despair!Nanami pans out.

There's one dark horse I really want to be mastermind but it seems improbable.

The last scene was just the ships leaving for an unknown reason. The possibility everything happens on Jabberwok still exists - although I have a personal problem with it due to the quake when the building above collapsed. that might have had to do with the ships though.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

I think it's very unlikely that there's any kind of 'sleep like death' or 'fake corpse' shenanigans afoot.

Neither of these things have any precedent for existing in the Danganronpa universe, and 'a substance that can make you appear dead while still being alive, and which holds up under the examination of an experienced detective' doesn't exist in real life either (and nor do convincingly fake corpses that stand up to close scrutiny).

Actually its very viable. The trick is to artificially reduce your heart beat and breathing to a level where it is pretty much impossible to make out whether someone is dead without medical equipment. Which is pretty dangerous but still possible.
As Kirigiri isn't a doctor but a detective she wouldn't be able to attest to non-obvious death. Also note that no one ever took Chisas pulse to begin with; There is a good reason pulse is no longer used to determine death, you know.

As for the fake corpse - Read DR Killer Killer. Juzou brings a really convinicing fake corpse (#' I couldn't tell the real shit from the fake') there in order to make people think he killed Naegi.
OH and fake corpses have happened before in DR 1 as well. Namely by Junko.
On that note please remember that people thought the fake corpse was Kirigiri for a long time.

The other thing you forgot is the picture which was apparently not there when Kirigiri examined Chisa's body earlier (Note at this point it could have still actually been easily chisa. Because the phases where Chisa got stabbed and examined by Kirigiri aren't the same.) - Later on though Munataka found a picture of Chisa smiling like an idiot with 'it was me *heart* ' on it.
Note it says 'me' not 'her' (Least in the translation) . So why again would Chisa carry around that pciture to begin with? It was obviously planted there later on and who could have had the picture other than her? Given how it seems to have been taken with an instant camera likely no one.

[Homura7]

Speaking about Killer Killer, I do recall Kodaka stated that story is tied up with DR3.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Alpha Knight

Speaking about Killer Killer, I do recall Kodaka stated that story is tied up with DR3.

Which makes me remember - the first victim there got killed by a single knife wound to the heart ...

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Actually its very viable. The trick is to artificially reduce your heart beat and breathing to a level where it is pretty much impossible to make out whether someone is dead without medical equipment. Which is pretty dangerous but still possible.
As Kirigiri isn't a doctor but a detective she wouldn't be able to attest to non-obvious death. Also note that no one ever took Chisas pulse to begin with; There is a good reason pulse is no longer used to determine death, you know.

I presume you're now going to tell me exactly what drugs, methods, etc can reduce someone's heart rate or breathing to the point where it's impossible to detect? Because I can find literally zero hard scientific evidence to suggest that's actually possible.

Also, the reason we don't use pulse as an absolute determining criteria for death is because we understand now that brain activity can continue after your heart stops beating (and even then, if there's been no pulse for a significant period of time, we do actually take that as meaning that someone's dead, especially when there are other symptoms such as coldness and a blue tinge -- symptoms Kyoko would recognise) not because of a spate of people faking their own deaths.

As for the fake corpse - Read DR Killer Killer. Juzou brings a really convinicing fake corpse (#' I couldn't tell the real shit from the fake') there in order to make people think he killed Naegi.
OH and fake corpses have happened before in DR 1 as well. Namely by Junko.
On that note please remember that people thought the fake corpse was Kirigiri for a long time.

Okay, firstly, DR1 doesn't have a fake corpse in it.

That was a real corpse. That was Mukuro Ikusaba's corpse, killed when she was masquerading as Junko. This is a major plot point in the final two chapters -- and in that case, that real corpse is only confused for Kyoko because Junko deliberately hides its identity by blowing it up, and Kyoko is absent doing other things. How on earth did you miss this.

Secondly, if I remember correctly, nobody sees the fake corpse in Killer Killer up close except Misaki, who sees it very briefly in a stressful situation and, critically, neither properly examines it nor is a skilled detective like Kyoko. Juzo displays it for the crowd and then conveniently has it blown up, so everybody else who sees it sees it from very, very far away. This is not the same as an actual fake corpse that holds up under close inspection from the Ultimate Detective.

The other thing you forgot is the picture which was apparently not there when Kirigiri examined Chisa's body earlier (Note at this point it could have still actually been easily chisa. Because the phases where Chisa got stabbed and examined by Kirigiri aren't the same.) - Later on though Munataka found a picture of Chisa smiling like an idiot with 'it was me *heart* ' on it.
Note it says 'me' not 'her' (Least in the translation) . So why again would Chisa carry around that pciture to begin with? It was obviously planted there later on and who could have had the picture other than her? Given how it seems to have been taken with an instant camera likely no one.

I didn't forget it, don't be so presumptuous, it's just not hugely relevant until we know more about it.

We don't actually know that it wasn't there when Kyoko examined the body. That's not necessarily an unreasonable assumption, but it is an assumption. Kyoko has played long games that involve deceiving people or behaving in an outwardly illogical way in the past, and moreover, we almost never see Kyoko take evidence away with her in any of her investigations -- usually she looks at it and then puts it back so that others can investigate as well.

Also, it's not necessarily an obvious plant. If Chisa's simply set in motion the events of the killing game, she has no need to conceal her identity. It might even work better if she doesn't, if her main goal is to drive Munakata into despair.

(It also says 'it's me', not 'it was me.' Different tenses imply different things, and I'm sure I don't need to explain to you what the difference in meaning is between 'it's me' with a circle around someone's face, and 'it was me' with a circle around someone's face. But to wit: One isn't incriminating, and the other is.)

[Homura7]

I think the killer pulled a Thanatos Gambit on everybody. For those who don't know what a Thanatos Gambit is, search in tropes. It pretty much explains why Kirigiri asserted the game was implied to have been rigged to favor Munakata.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Alpha Knight

I think the killer pulled a Thanatos Gambit on everybody. For those who don't know what a Thanatos Gambit is, search in tropes. It pretty much explains why Kirigiri asserted the game was implied to have been rigged to favor Munakata.

Just searched it on tropes and I'm instantly reminded of HOPEman.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Alpha Knight

Togami stated the Killing Game had a connection with Jabberwock island.

...I don't think he meant it was literally connected.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

The last scene was just the ships leaving for an unknown reason. The possibility everything happens on Jabberwok still exists - although I have a personal problem with it due to the quake when the building above collapsed. that might have had to do with the ships though.

As I understood it the entire theory was contingent on quake = ships, but it doesn't appear they've opened fire yet at all, which is why I'm surprised people have stuck with it.

Anyway I'm back to where I can't decide if Chisa had any involvement. Its plausible she went back to hope side and died sort of tragically. Hrmmmmmmmm.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by stray

...I don't think he meant it was literally connected..

Neither did I...

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

I presume you're now going to tell me exactly what drugs, methods, etc can reduce someone's heart rate or breathing to the point where it's impossible to detect? Because I can find literally zero hard scientific evidence to suggest that's actually possible.

Not a poison specialist, you can pretty much bet though, that there are tons of animal poisons that easily paralize you to a high degree where it is hard to differ that state from actual death. I believe there is also a good reason you won't find their names or how to aquire them on the internet

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Also, the reason we don't use pulse as an absolute determining criteria for death is because we understand now that brain activity can continue after your heart stops beating (and even then, if there's been no pulse for a significant period of time, we do actually take that as meaning that someone's dead, especially when there are other symptoms such as coldness and a blue tinge -- symptoms Kyoko would recognise) not because of a spate of people faking their own deaths.

Whenever did I say that, the methods of determination changed due to people faking their deaths? What I said is that even physicians often have trouble differing a corpse from someone who is still alive without proper medical eqipment.
She isn't unfailable either, which was proven the moment she suggested Munataka is the mastermind.
Point is: She isn't a physician, and if they have trouble determining someones death without medical instruments why would Kyouko fair any better considering how she is a detective and not a physician?

Originally Posted by DMurphy

That was a real corpse. That was Mukuro Ikusaba's corpse, killed when she was masquerading as Junko. This is a major plot point in the final two chapters -- and in that case, that real corpse is only confused for Kyoko because Junko deliberately hides its identity by blowing it up,

Actually thats technically still a fake, since it was intentionally used to make people think its someone elses corpse.

Not to forget the Otaku using the blood to (cheaply) fake his own death which technically makes him a fake corpse too.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

and Kyoko is absent doing other things. How on earth did you miss this.

I didn't at all, as I never claimed Kirigiri was the one encountering the prop-corpse but Munataka. I referred to the two events not being in the same phase at least 6 times by now.

I think its time for a timeline (npi)

--Sleep time: Chisa 'killed' (- really? With that NG code?! )--
Phase 1: the Hunt begins, Farmer NG
--Sleep time: Great Guzou killed---
Phase 2: Tengan dies; Kirigiri examines Chisa's and farmerboys corpses.,
--Sleep time: Seiko killed--
Phase 3:Guzoou gets examined; Izayoi dies; Examining Izayoi's and Seiko's corpse.
Munataka stabs Chisa's 'corpse' and probably finds the pictures there., Juzou dies
--Sleep time:Kirigiri NG, Ruruka killed---
Phase 4: Present



Not to mention the survivor counter obviously being unreliable in one way or another.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Secondly, if I remember correctly, nobody sees the fake corpse in Killer Killer up close except Misaki, who sees it very briefly in a stressful situation and, critically, neither properly examines it nor is a skilled detective like Kyoko. Juzo displays it for the crowd and then conveniently has it blown up, so everybody else who sees it sees it from very, very far away. This is not the same as an actual fake corpse that holds up under close inspection from the Ultimate Detective.

Three things here
First: Actually Juzou does see it up close.
Second: See the timeline.
Third: Kirigrri isn't without fault at all - see her earlier deduction despite better reasoning.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

I didn't forget it, don't be so presumptuous, it's just not hugely relevant until we know more about it.

it was actually a nicer way of telling you that you apparently subconciously or intentionally ignore/deem it irrelevant for the time being while it is actually pretty good evidence.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

We don't actually know that it wasn't there when Kyoko examined the body. That's not necessarily an unreasonable assumption, but it is an assumption. Kyoko has played long games that involve deceiving people or behaving in an outwardly illogical way in the past, and moreover, we almost never see Kyoko take evidence away with her in any of her investigations -- usually she looks at it and then puts it back so that others can investigate as well.

Fair enough, howver. There wasn't really any evidence to take with her before that one.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Also, it's not necessarily an obvious plant. If Chisa's simply set in motion the events of the killing game, she has no need to conceal her identity. It might even work better if she doesn't, if her main goal is to drive Munakata into despair.

In which case they were still intentionally discovered by the mastermind and thus a plant. Whether Chisa planeted them there herself or if someone else did makes very little difference there.
The other possibility is of course that he had the pictures before that already, however that would make him the biggest idot in the entire world (see below).
Also concealing her identity until the right point works way better than never concealing it in the first place.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

(It also says 'it's me', not 'it was me.' Different tenses imply different things, and I'm sure I don't need to explain to you what the difference in meaning is between 'it's me' with a circle around someone's face, and 'it was me' with a circle around someone's face. But to wit: One isn't incriminating, and the other is.)

Me not remembering the exact text aside, its just as incriminating as the other, especially if you consider the huge smile and how its done in front of a bunch of corpses which where already covered upon Munataka's arrival while not being covered at all when she is sitting on the swing.
Also note that there isn't just one but two pictures, one namely being a photograph of the children being very alive, in contrast to what Chisa herself claimed.

Originally Posted by stray

Anyway I'm back to where I can't decide if Chisa had any involvement. Its plausible she went back to hope side and died sort of tragically. Hrmmmmmmmm.

Given her post death/fake death narration unlikely