Fate/Zero - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by GDB

So... isn't Waver supposed to have four Command Spells? Risei did say that Rider and Saber's Masters had already claimed their rewards from the Caster battle, didn't he? And Waver hadn't yet used one...

Not in the anime.

Originally Posted by Kataryn

How does Rider get his source of mana to stay in physical form? I doubt he has independent action like the Archer classes have.

Rider had his own reserves and he recharged using Waver's mana during their bro camping trip.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I could be wrong but I actually don't expect that to happen. I mean don't get me wrong I am pretty positive Gil will be the ultimate victor of the Rider VS Gil battle (as much as I hate to admit it).

But I have a feeling Gil will come to the conclusion that Rider is a worthy opponent and while there might be defeat it might not actually end in despair.

Of all the characters Rider & Waver's development has been completely positive. Even in the end I expect it to stay that way.

Well I will be disappointed if I am wrong, because who wants to see Rider/Waver suffer?

I don't think there will be "despair" with Rider and Waver. They are bros and understand the potential outcome. There will be sadness, but not despair. Rider really doesn't stand a chance, so...

[ookamigirl]

Waver and his "grandpa".
They finally figured out he's not their real grandchild.
He was kinda surprised they accepted him despite that.
It's nice how Rider thinks of Waver as his friend too.
All the servants and masters are slowly gathering to get the grail.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

How does Rider get his source of mana to stay in physical form? I doubt he has independent action like the Archer classes have.

Rider still has his own, albeit now somewhat depleted, prana pool.

Besides, using up all 3 Command Spells doesn't mean one stops being a Master. They just cannot control their Servant anymore.

[blakstealth]

noooooo Irisviel ;__;

Then all of a sudden....MORE OF THEM ;________;

[Aqua Knight]

To be honest, even though the series are darker/mature compared to FSN, they don't appeal to me at all with the exception of Rider/Waver duo.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I could be wrong but I actually don't expect that to happen. I mean don't get me wrong I am pretty positive Gil will be the ultimate victor of the Rider VS Gil battle (as much as I hate to admit it).

Hey, at least he'll be defeated by Tomokazu Seki. If that's any consolation.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But I have a feeling Gil will come to the conclusion that Rider is a worthy opponent

Well, you probably haven't watched the BDs for Season 1, so you wouldn't know, but that's actually already happened. In the BD version of episode 11, the banquet of the three kings, Gil and Rider had a lot more dialogue together and developed this mutual respect of sorts, with Gil going as far as to say "I've decided, Rider. I shall kill you myself." which is basically Gil's way of recognizing him as a worthy opponent.

But, of course, it also means he wants to be the one to kill him, so I think the best we can hope for, as far as a conclusion without despair goes, is that Waver is spared, which should at least provide Rider some solace in defeat. We'll see, I guess.

[Xagzan]

Oh god, poor Iri And I thought I didn't like it back when he stabbed her even though she had Avalon. But this was just horrible and brutal. That neck snapping sound. Kirei, fuck you.

You know, after the last episode, I thought to myself "Ok, so we had Shirley die. Next episode, it was Natalia. Then Maiya after that, and Aoi in the one after that. So next episode, I guess it's Iri's turn, huh?" It was meant to be humorous, but, well here we are. One female character after another, every episode.

I don't understand why he killed her though, or even if she's sort of metaphysically alive (given that scene at the end where she's up and about in some ethereal plane). I mean, didn't he need her alive to be the Grail vessel?

I loved that ending scene by the way. It was wonderfully eerie and desolate and deathly cold. Now cometh the Grail, eh?

[SRanger]

stop killing off all the hot girls Gen.

[Ithekro]

Only one left is Saber. (little girls don't count...they need to grow up in suffering after all, right Gen?)

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I don't understand why he killed her though, or even if she's sort of metaphysically alive (given that scene at the end where she's up and about in some ethereal plane). I mean, didn't he need her alive to be the Grail vessel?

I loved that ending scene by the way. It was wonderfully eerie and desolate and deathly cold. Now cometh the Grail, eh?

Kirei told Kariya in the previous episode, when asked if Iri really was the vessel of the Grail: "Her contents are, to be precise." So yeah, he doesn't need her alive, as long as her contents are still there.

And Kirei also killed her because, as he told Gilgamesh afterwards, there was no reason to keep her alive any longer. He had gotten the information he wanted out of her, and even if he didn't killed her, her husband himself would have done the deed when the time came. If you look at it like that, Kirei killing her can even be viewed as a form of mercy. As in, being killed by your bitter enemy would be preferable to being sacrificed by your own husband.

[Swithin]

haHA! The most famous team of horse and rider in history reunited on the battlefield! I may have actually squeaked a bit when Bucephalus showed up. I also love that Bucephalus is not a Noble Phantasm but a Heroic Spirit himself. I've been loving Waver's coming of age tale, and three equals riding onto the field (with an army of comrades, no less, to back them up) is a perfect climax. Rider's been an excellent mentor, and so long as Waver survives I'm looking forward to what's probably his last stand... because you can't kill ideals. In a mushy sense, Rider doesn't need the grail, his attitude is one of embracing life - and he's already passed it on to Waver. He's succeeded at being a Heroic Spirit - now all that's left is a heroic last stand. (That said, Rider is a big rectification of the historical Alexander in a lot of ways. Even so, I love the hell out of the character, but I miss the heterochromia.)

Endless Twilight, I wasn't aware that there was extra footage included in the disc releases of FZ, how much more content is there? Are all the episodes expanded, or is it just bits and pieces here and there? (I got your name wrong for a second, but fixed it in an edit. I was talking with a friend as I was typing and he used a word similar to "endless" and it snuck in.)

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

If you look at it like that, Kirei killing her can even be viewed as a form of mercy. As in, being killed by your bitter enemy would be preferable to being sacrificed by your own husband.

That is a big no, big no. Dying as a sacrifice to save the world is much better than dying at the hands of a sadistic priest bent on killing your husband.

You know... I have so much rage towards Kirei right now...

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Swithin

Endless Twilight, I wasn't aware that there was extra footage included in the disc releases of FZ, how much more content is there? Are all the episodes expanded, or is it just bits and pieces here and there?

I would say, all in all, there was enough new footage for about one extra episode.

And the extra content is uneven. Some episodes received no new footage at all, whereas others, like episodes 11 and 12, received about 5 new minutes each.

The new scenes are particularly worthwhile if you're a Gilgamesh fan, since many of the scenes that were left out from the broadcast version were his. Some priorities those mongrels at ufotable had, but oh well.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That is a big no, big no. Dying as a sacrifice to save the world is much better than dying at the hands of a sadistic priest bent on killing your husband.

Yes, I'm sure that's how Iri sees it as well. But you see, the fact that Kiritsugu has a wife he could be happy with but still chooses to discard her love for the sake of pursuing a childish ideal is precisely why Kirei is now hellbent on crushing Kiritsugu (before he just wanted to question him).

[Flawfinder]

Loved this episode, mostly because it focused on Waver and the animation was actually good for a change. I know a lot of people say this by now, but Waver (and Kariya) seems to be the only character who is actually invested in this war. Kirei, I'm sorry, but he is too subdued in his emotions that his "killing" of Irisviel almost felt like that disabled guy from Battleship (okay, it's not THAT bad).

[kk2extreme]

Rider really do need a B-2 bomber for the final battle

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

Loved this episode, mostly because it focused on Waver and the animation was actually good for a change. I know a lot of people say this by now, but Waver (and Kariya) seems to be the only character who is actually invested in this war. Kirei, I'm sorry, but he is too subdued in his emotions that his "killing" of Irisviel almost felt like that disabled guy from Battleship (okay, it's not THAT bad).

Kiritsugu may act detached, but he's easily the one most invested in the war. Like Irisviel explained in this episode, the Holy Grail is virtually his last hope.

Waver only got into the war to get some respect and acknowledgment, but thanks to Rider and "grandpa" he's finally beginning to realize how, even though those things may seem like everything in the world to him now, they're still not worth risking one's life for in the end.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Kirei told Kariya in the previous episode, when asked if Iri really was the vessel of the Grail: "Her contents are, to be precise." So yeah, he doesn't need her alive, as long as her contents are still there.

And Kirei also killed her because, as he told Gilgamesh afterwards, there was no reason to keep her alive any longer. He had gotten the information he wanted out of her, and even if he didn't killed her, her husband himself would have done the deed when the time came. If you look at it like that, Kirei killing her can even be viewed as a form of mercy. As in, being killed by your bitter enemy would be preferable to being sacrificed by your own husband.

Oh I didn't mean exactly "why did he kill her?" but more, "why would he kill her if she needed to be the Grail vessel?" But you answered that too with your first part.

Still, I think even being killed by her husband would've been better than being strangled in a dark sewer dungeon by an evil bastard, alone.

Poor Iri

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I don't think there will be "despair" with Rider and Waver. They are bros and understand the potential outcome. There will be sadness, but not despair. Rider really doesn't stand a chance, so...

though unlikely, what what if Waver got caught in the crossfire and died mid battle? Would Rider regret bringing him into the battlefield?

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Kiritsugu may act detached, but he's easily the one most invested in the war. Like Irisviel explained in this episode, the Holy Grail is virtually his last hope.

Waver only got into the war to get some respect and acknowledgment, but thanks to Rider and "grandpa" he's finally beginning to realize how, even though those things may seem like everything in the world to him now, they're still not worth risking one's life for in the end.

I know what they're aiming for. The problem is, he acts detached "too well" to the point that I'm believing it. Or maybe the animation was bad during his scenes. Long story short, I'm not a fan of badasses that don't show emotion, and he barely escapes from that.

Yeah, Waver had weak motivations, but he strongly believed in them, which helped him become animated in the first half. And he's still my favorite to this day.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

I know what they're aiming for. The problem is, he acts detached "too well" to the point that I'm believing it. Or maybe the animation was bad during his scenes. Long story short, I'm not a fan of badasses that don't show emotion, and he barely escapes from that.

it is not the animation, the majority of Kiri's characterization comes form monologues. Unless you want o listen to Kiri talking to himself for a entire ep...