2014-02-01, 14:53 | Link #581 | ||
Boo, you whore
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2014-02-01, 14:57 | Link #582 |
On a mission
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It seems to me that a lot of it comes down to the concept that a number of anime series, dare I say more often than not, simply aren't able to handle these issues in a mature manner. I mean sure, sometimes, we get a White Album 2, that does handle sexuality in a mature manner, but for every one of of that, we get like 10 harem comedies or whatnot that does so in a juvenile manner, in which sexual relations are so embarrassing that any deep physical contact will give the characters cooties or some shit. If we can't even get decent portrayals of conventional heterocentric relationships, what chance does anything else stand? And thus, I tend to watch romantic series with a cynical slant. Even stuff like Key which I like a lot are often complete jokes relative to what actually comes across well when it comes to romance with the exception that stands out.
This of course, isn't particular to anime itself but if if you were to give an anime to me in a vacuum and tells me it handles incest, then it would still be an uphill struggle. I'm just confident that perhaps the creators believe that the audience just isn't able to handle sexuality in other than a fetishizied or realistic manner, and when we come to sexuality that isn't 100% conventional then all semblance of taking it seriously flies out the window. Homosexual relationships, transgender folks, incest... the amount of characters that can be sent at me and I can regard them as actual people rather than some kind of fetish marketed object is exceedingly rare. Of course, it is too much to expect out of a medium that sells a certain dream. But much like in the Matrix, my mind cannot handle such juvenile idealization. It's why series like Yosuga no Sora, which ultimately falls into these traps ultimately gets much more respect from me. Sure, the sexualization is simplistic and follows more of a juvenile approach towards explicit sexuality (lol we have tits!) but the characterization was of a high enough quality to make me feel that the pain of having to deal with the rest of society and the burdens they carried were something of a genuine creation. For something that was marketing itself off as basically softcore porn, it was contained a lot more substance than one would imagine, if you cared about narrative. And then you just see the opposite like Ore no Imouto and its garden variety spinoffs, and I just go back to sleep.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2014-02-01 at 15:12. |
2014-02-01, 16:05 | Link #583 | |
Boo, you whore
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The problem is that most anime is aimed at people who haven't had sexual relationships, which is why many anime have nothing that resembles a real life relationship.
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2014-02-01, 19:30 | Link #585 |
On a mission
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Mm, I suppose Oreimo was indeed entertaining in parts, though my statement isn't really any about it being good or bad. It certainly did have a tongue in cheek kind of attitude that did mark more than just a mere fetish exploration for bits and parts. But ultimately, I didn't really see too much meaning and substance though it certainly might have gone a bit farther than some others would.
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2014-02-01, 23:38 | Link #586 | |
Sisterhood of the Desu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: in a van by the river
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I can see side eying you, but not 'YOU ARE SICK!' As for the topic itself..... Sorry, but incest gets a huge NOPE from me. And the recent trend of little siblings lusting over Oni-chan is just weird and.....strange to me.
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2014-02-02, 00:55 | Link #588 |
✘˵╹◡╹˶✘
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Australia
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Actually this and Archon_Wing's post made me realise:
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2014-02-02, 16:29 | Link #589 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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The sample pool in this thread is a bit biased because we're all people who have spent an excessive amount of time discussing anime, and in that sense shows that provide more depth and treat subjects with more seriousness provide for much better discussion. But there's totally a market for "disposable entertainment" as well -- a silly show you'll watch, enjoy for what it is, and then move on. If you look at general sales and popularity trends, shows that try to be more serious, down-to-earth, and grounded tend to be more hit-and-miss in terms of whether they find their audience. Sometimes it pays of in droves, and other times they languish in obscurity. At least comedies and more light-hearted shows tend to find their audiences more easily because people know what they're going to get; it's an easier sell to the audience that's receptive to it. That being said, sometimes people do also tend to underestimate or undervalue the redeeming value and elements of seriousness in certain shows they have otherwise dismissed as mindless. Some things legitimately are deeper/more complicated than they think or can see at first glance. (And that aside... the sort of sibling hijinks and drama in the lighter-hearted anime really have nothing at all do with realistic sibling relationships. I don't think enjoying it or not has anything to do with whether you have siblings, because it's so highly fictionalized/romanticized/abstracted. "Imouto characters" are very rarely designed to be completely realistic for that reason; it'd break the fantasy for people who have siblings.)
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2014-02-02, 22:47 | Link #590 |
こんにちは
Join Date: Nov 2011
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To answer the thread's question - I think one way of looking at it is that the idea of forbidden love generally makes us curious, even if we have no desire to experiment/partake in such a thing. I think it's natural for anyone to be interested in something they know nothing about, so incest stories cater to that curiosity.
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2014-02-03, 08:48 | Link #591 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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I'm a bit surprised no one mentioned the event in
Spoiler:
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2014-02-03, 09:41 | Link #592 |
ダメ人 - 人間失格
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 37
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I have no problem with "incest" relationships in fiction. As long as said imouto is likeable, romance is romance. But, there are cases where a possible broxsis relationship can feel more wrong than correctly. This depends on how the normal interaction is played out outside of brocon, tsuntsun or other tropes. For the imoutos, partly also how young they exactly look like.
And due to my drama-damaged self, I much prefer a light-hearted imouto romance than some dramafest just for the sake of having drama.
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2014-02-03, 10:33 | Link #593 | |
Senior Member
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There's a key word that Irenicus brought up before that I think applies here - Verisimilitude. Most lighthearted anime tend to take place in worlds geared towards a certain degree of realism (i.e. not a fantasy or very futuristic setting). So viewers expect the relationships therein to feel at least somewhat plausible and/or believable. Now, if you have a sibling (or siblings), you have your own real world sibling relationship(s) to measure against what you see in fiction. So differences can stand out more, especially when differences border on being completely opposite to your own real life experiences. In extreme cases, the differences are so great that the fictional sibling relationship becomes impossible to take seriously - It's just too far removed from your own experiences, and so you can't buy into it. Frankly, a lot of anime sibling relationships are like that for me, as I do have two younger sisters in real life. And this isn't even just a matter of brocon, siscon, or incest - Yes, that's definitely part of it, but even the idea of a younger sibling doting on you almost constantly (as we see with some such siblings in anime) is radically different from my own real life experience with younger sisters. If anything, younger siblings often try to stand apart from older siblings, and do this by establishing a certain level of distance where possible. Anime actually tends to have it backwards if anything - Older siblings tend to feel a certain level of responsibility to look after younger siblings, and hence will tend to dote on them a bit. Now, if I never had any siblings of my own, I'd have very little to measure anime sibling relationships against. I did know some sibling pairs/groups in school, but not so well that I could say much definitive about it.
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2014-02-03, 11:48 | Link #594 |
Lumine Passio
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 18
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A little expanding with two questions:
1. Is people who fascinated with Anime Incest freak? I wouldn't lie and tell that I hate it. Quite the opposite. I always try to incorporate it to my fanfics, and so does a number of other writers that I know. And yet I don't consider myself to have any type of complex, still follow the rules. (Of course, it's weird for a 7 years-old to write fanfic.) 2. Would Anime Incest syndrome only affects people who has no sibling? That statement is even written of TVTrope. But me myself has an older sister and my twin brother. |
2014-02-03, 12:22 | Link #595 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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I have THREE sisters and two brothers, so I have my fill of sibling drama, cold war, powerplay and mind games. In that perspective, incest in both ways is eeeeeeeeeeeeew to me. IIRC, the only time I have seen sibling relationships described accurately, it was in Danshi Koukousei no Nichijou. Even if it was at time played for humor, it certainly conveyed that "been there" feeling to many who had siblings.
Yes, imouto are terrifying creatures, just as the author of Maoyuu can attest. |
2014-02-03, 12:59 | Link #596 | ||
Japanese Culture Fan
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 33
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By the way, have you ever read The Catcher in the Rye? The main character has an adorable little sister who dotes on her brother in a way not unlike many anime sibling relationships. And this is an American book written in 1951. Quote:
However, what does annoy me with incest in anime is when a character is made a brocon or siscon for seemingly no reason, particularly when it interferes with the relationships with other characters. For instance, what exactly was the point of Utao's infatuation with her brother Kyouhei in Kamisama Dolls, other than to fulfill some stupid unnecessary harem quota? It just made too many scenes pointlessly awkward to me, and it didn't really change anything in the plot. |
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2014-02-03, 16:54 | Link #597 | ||||
On a mission
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I mean, I peruse To Love Ru quite a bit, and it is clearly not a mature approach towards sexuality at all. Oh sure, there's explicitness, but a lot of people confuse that with being mature. It's not-- it's designed to cater to the hormones of young dudes. At the same time, I can't really say no to it every now and then. My complaint is of course that this for too much seems like the default mode, and hell, even though Darkness has even more of this immature approach towards female bodies, it did manage to add a bit of snazz to it while maintaining this approach-- aka it didn't get too serious at itself. And honestly, it still remains enjoyable at that approach. But to get back on topic; the incest implications in To Love Ru do not bother me at all. Perhaps it's just an understanding of the purpose of the show made it ensured that it should not be taken seriously as the main goal is to provide excuses for unwarranted nudity and Mikan's insertion in the plot always seem kind of questionable but then again she's amusing enough for the viewer to accept her being shoehorned into the story as well as adding this certain relationship angle for a series that is pretty much trying to cover them all. It's kinda like the Yosuga no Sora dilemma where you see decent characterization but the end goal for many that saw the cover was ... that. Is it really wrong to eventually get into that? I really can't answer that. But really, it still works, it does get played off as laughs even though if you'd analyze it too much, there is some real problems. I'm not trying to really pass this off as a masterpiece, as certainly TLR has many problems of its own, but I'm trying to pick something of which vindictive ranting isn't warranted while I pew pew pew from an ivory tower. I would like to do a number of things to the audience here in this thread, but if there's one thing I don't, I really don't want to bore them. This kinda show does fit into your description here though: Quote:
Also, I also thought Little Busters! was a pretty naive, silly, and childish story of sorts for a large portion of its run-- if you ask me about Key from a literary perspective, I'm mostly going to sneer outside of Clannad (and even that well...), but it had a real sense of innocence and sincerity that you just can't get from all that wannabe serious meta meta stuff. If there's anything that turns me off; it would be an emphasis on too many meta-elements. And to drag this back on topic, I'm going to bring up how Monogatari handled incest and that was just not in a manner that worked on any level at all. I just get the feeling it's trying to pass itself off as high-brow but ultimately just comes off as it disguising low-brow stuff that I just find unforgettable since there's just no real substance beyond a few lines of subtext. Quote:
Or maybe in the mirror. The value of escapism I feel is certainly valuable; we get plenty of realism everywhere, really. I'm not too appreciative of the balance though. Watching White Album 2 has had me reconsider the difference between these perspectives. Quote:
It's true that fiction allows us to take these concepts into realms that we really shouldn't in real life, but that's the advantage of fiction. Which is ironically one of the better things I took from Oreimo. But as you know, I don't like that series too much so you may insert me talking about how it went off to contradict and screw it up but nobody wants to see me to do it for the 35436th time, so there...
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2014-02-03 at 17:11. |
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2014-02-03, 21:19 | Link #598 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Now, I'm not saying that may not bother some other people, but it isn't necessarily problematic for that reason. The fact that it bothers you doesn't mean it bothers everyone with siblings in the same way. Your relationships in real life aren't as big of a determining factor as the way you personally approach fiction and the expectations about things like "verisimilitude" in this regard. Quote:
Again, I would suggest that it's a matter of focus and whether you can let yourself slip into that universe with those characters. If you can only stand on the outside and look at it in the abstract, the dichotomies will pile up. But if you can allow yourself to accept the world being presented, there can often be more depth than it seems like on the outside. Fiction is often much more than the combination of tropes it employs, despite the culture of this community that sometimes seems to believe otherwise.
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2014-02-03, 22:14 | Link #599 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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Well, incest aside, I consider the anime of Yosuga no Sora is one of the most well-written VN adaptations of its time (until Steins;Gate came and excluding the heart-wrenching works of Key). Even with the sexual content, one doesn't feel that it's shoehorned into the story and works well with the level of romance involved. Compare that to ImoCho, for example, where the female lead has to engage in raunchy affairs with her brother OR ELSE.
As a single child (yay!), I honestly don't care much about incest, probably until OreImo came. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wished that Kirino and Kyousuke were rewritten as (a) starcrossed lovers that are not related by blood or familial ties, or (b) as siblings whose relationship improve after becoming distant to each other.
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2014-02-03, 23:07 | Link #600 | ||
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But what constitutes the construct? "The internal rules of the fictional universe". And what determines the internal rules of the fictional universe? The characters do, if there's nothing about the setting itself that clearly and unambiguously separates it from the real world. So the characters decide what's plausible and believable for themselves? Well, I suppose so, and that's fine in the latter stages of a story once characterization has been well-developed, but early on, characters acting in ways that seem highly unrealistic to viewers can be problematic. So sure, if viewers get over those initial hurdles (like you and Tempester clearly have), then it can get easier with time. But a lot of viewers never will get over those initial hurdles, and their own real life experiences (including their own real life relationships) can be a big part of the reason why. So I think a viewer having siblings themselves will probably make it harder for them to roll with certain anime tropes and character types. There may be some exceptions, but I think there's some truth to it as well. Quote:
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