(L) Freezing [Manga]

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by Tachibana

If you want verification regarding what Gengo said about Kazuya having a complete stigma body. Ask GodricKharg, he can confirm it for you.

while its what was said I dont think it was what he meant, since he would say he has nova body instead of stigmatic body, the word stigmatic means to "bear the marks of....", in religion it means to bear marks of Jesus but in this story context it would mean bear mark of nova or something like that, Stigmata is the plural of the Greek word στίγμα stigma, meaning a mark, tattoo, or brand(quote from wikipedia).

also If Kazuya was 100% nova then he most like wouldnt be able to interact with humans in same way he did before, since nova arent driven by same emotions like humans are, as we see with fact that the closer you are to nova the harder its for you to understand human emotions(most of legendary pandora look like they are faking emotions, smiling in situations no normal person would and stuff like that), nova simply perceive world differently.

[DragonOsman]

It's still possible that Kazuya became 100% Nova genetics-wise but managed to retain his humanity. You did read what we were saying, didn't you? Kazuha helped him retain his humanity so that he wouldn't turn out like she did. So he could still have a 100% stigma body. Gengo said he has a complete stigma body now, in Chapter 200.

I remember that in one of the chapters (IIRC it was around the time Kazuya awakened his power to control Pandora), he saw Kazuha in his dream and she told him what I said above. I don't remember what she said exactly, but it was something along those lines. I'll have to look again, I guess.

It's possible that Arcadia and Kazuya both have a complete stigma body, hence why they can control Pandora and why Kazuya was able to make them transcend. It makes sense to me.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

It's still possible that Kazuya became 100% Nova genetics-wise but managed to retain his humanity. You did read what we were saying, didn't you? Kazuha helped him retain his humanity so that he wouldn't turn out like she did. So he could still have a 100% stigma body. Gengo said he has a complete stigma body now, in Chapter 200.

I remember that in one of the chapters (IIRC it was around the time Kazuya awakened his power to control Pandora), he saw Kazuha in his dream and she told him what I said above. I don't remember what she said exactly, but it was something along those lines. I'll have to look again, I guess.

It's possible that Arcadia and Kazuya both have a complete stigma body, hence why they can control Pandora and why Kazuya was able to make them transcend. It makes sense to me.

actually kazuya never had problem with his humanity but kazuha did, she didnt feel love like humans do but kazuya didnt seem ever to have this problem.

still saying that he has complete stigmatic body is very weird, why not say that he has complete nova body ? kazuya's grandmother Maria lancelot is classifed as nova, why wouldnt be described same after he reached 100% ?

[DragonOsman]

Because even though he's Maria's grandson, he isn't exactly the same thing as her. He has a complete stigma body, but he's also part human because he has a human father and a human grandfather. But saying he has a complete stigma body does mean he has 100% stigmatic tissue.

Kazuha didn't have 100% stigmatic tissue, but she was less human than Kazuya. She noticed that that was a problem and she later tried to know love. And she made sure that Kazuya would be more human because she noticed that he has a more potent stigma body than hers. I'll try to go back and reread what she said in that chapter if I can find it. It was when Kazuya awakened his power, IIRC.

Edit: I misread the chapter for when Gengo said Kazuya has a complete stigma body. I thought it was Chapter 200, but it's not. Anyway, I'll find it first, and then I'll go back some chapters to try to find out where Kazuha said those things to Kazuya.

Edit: I found the part in Chapter 205 where Gengo says it. It starts on with Kazuya lying down a bed connected to some wires, and Arcadia and three other Legendary Pandora inside liquid-filled tubes connected to Maria Lancelot. The Pandora are asleep and Kazuya is awake. Gengo says, "Using 4 Pandora's soul as a generator we focus the soul to the existence of a person that can open the dimensional gate. And that person is, of course, Maria Lancelot. Maria once tried to send me information from that other side. But since I was a human, I could only recognize a glimpse of it. Analyzing the power of stigma, all I could do was connect the fragments of information. (Panel showing Kazuya (because Gengo is talking to him directly) But you are different . . . having a complete stigmatic body . . . you should be able to understand the truth Maria was trying to show us. You will contact Maria with your freezing. And as a mental body, you'll pass through the dimensional gate. Observe Maria's world as a human race. And deeply remember what you see!".

Maria Lancelot and Maria Elca might be the same person. That world is Maria Lancelot's own world. It's where she came from. So what we're seeing there might be the past of that world. Probably from before Maria came to Earth and tried to tell Gengo what happened. He couldn't understand it because he's human, but being a complete stigmatic body possessor, Kazuya can understand it.

Edit2: Oh, potentially more proof that Maria Lancelot and Maria Elca Nova are the same person. On the site with tsukkomi, go check out pages 31 and 32 of Chapter 205. Maria Lancelot's own soul same out and hugged Kazuya and took him into that world, all the while looking Gengo in the face all smug-like and smiling.

Edit3: In Chapter 196, when Kazuya was using his power, he had the same eyes as Maria Lancelot and the Legendary Pandora. The transcended Pandora did as well.

It's in Chapter 195 that Kazuha and Kazuya talk. Right after Kazuya sees the vision what happened to Ryuuichi. Kazuya asks her what he has to do, and she tells him that she understood the Transcendent Will. She also tells him that she realized how fragile humans were, as well as some other things. "I already told you... I understood the Transcendent Will. I realized how fragile humans are, so I killed Mom...and dragged Dad...into misery. I didn't mean to hurt them.... I just obeyed my instincts. Even when I first started raising you, I didn't really care about you...the thing that Mom desired so much that she gave her life for it...the thing that Dad cared about more than anything...the thing that Grandpa wanted above all else...I wanted to make that thing mine...". Kazuya can't believe what she's saying. Kazuha continues: "Are you sad? Sorry, but it's true...'we' don't feel anything for family or any humans. That's how we are... or rather, that's how we're destined to evolve...But, humans truly are a mystery...they're hopelessly illogical animals, and yet they always learn from their failures and give birth to new possibilities. Emotions...ideals...and even values... learned about all of them bit by bit as I raised you...I learned why Mom did what she did, I learned why Cassandra was able to change, and I learned...how important family is. Which is why I decided to take a chance on the possibility that that man, Aoi Gengo, is betting on. You know, Kazuya...Grandpa already knows mankind's future can't be changed...Even so...he's doing all he can to prolong the time that humans can remain humans. It is beyond me to understand...what meaning there is in doing so...I tried to doing the same thing...protecting humans...protecting mankind's will...And of course, I protected my family, too...And after all that I have to say I felt pretty good. It's a little different than what Grandpa tried to protect...But after I tried to protect you...and everyone else, I found something new to value. Whether that was the right thing to do, or if it has any value, I don't know. But at the very least, the 'value' that was born through me...now lives on in you as the desire to protect that which you care about. And that makes you...the only being with a transcendent body able to understand the value in protecting humans. Mom gave birth to you, Dad protected you, and I...passed everything on to you. Aoi Kazua, you alone...are the only one with a stigmatic body able to side with mankind. So go on and protect them with all your might. Protect your precious friends and family...That in itself...Might be another possibility for this world that you can create."

Kazuha couldn't understand love at first, but she grew to understand it as she raised Kazuya, and she used her power to protect humanity. She raised Kazuya so that he'd be able to understand love, and as she said, he's the only one with a transcendent body (read: Nova body/stigmatic body, in this context) able to understand the value in protecting humans. The only one with a stigmatic able to side with mankind.

That's why he hasn't started acting like the Nova we know that come to threaten mankind even though he already has a complete stigma body. It's the reason why he seems human even though his body, at a genetic level, is already 100% Nova.

Normally, people with stigmatic bodies are meant to be like Kazuha was in the beginning. Which is why she said, "'we' don't feel anything for family or any humans. That's how we are... or rather, that's how we're destined to evolve". "We" here refers to people like her and Kazuya who possess a stigmatic body.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Because even though he's Maria's grandson, he isn't exactly the same thing as her. He has a complete stigma body, but he's also part human because he has a human father and a human grandfather. But saying he has a complete stigma body does mean he has 100% stigmatic tissue.

You are kinda contradicting yourself here:

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

It's still possible that Kazuya became 100% Nova genetics-wise but managed to retain his humanity. You did read what we were saying, didn't you? Kazuha helped him retain his humanity so that he wouldn't turn out like she did. So he could still have a 100% stigma body. Gengo said he has a complete stigma body now, in Chapter 200.

"Tachibana" was implying that Kazuya has pretty much 100% nova body now and thats what this discussion was about, I pretty much said that 100% stigmatic body doesnt have to mean 100% nova body as "Tachibana" seems to think

[DragonOsman]

No, that's what it means. And look at what Kazuha said (I quoted it in my post above).

Having a 100% stigmatic body means you're 100% Nova at a genetic level. But Kazuya and Kazuha were both able to understand love despite being more Nova than human, so that doesn't really matter for them.

And in case I need to, I'll re-post this here:

I found the part in Chapter 205 where Gengo says it. It starts on with Kazuya lying down a bed connected to some wires, and Arcadia and three other Legendary Pandora inside liquid-filled tubes connected to Maria Lancelot. The Pandora are asleep and Kazuya is awake. Gengo says, "Using 4 Pandora's soul as a generator we focus the soul to the existence of a person that can open the dimensional gate. And that person is, of course, Maria Lancelot. Maria once tried to send me information from that other side. But since I was a human, I could only recognize a glimpse of it. Analyzing the power of stigma, all I could do was connect the fragments of information. (Panel showing Kazuya (because Gengo is talking to him directly) But you are different . . . having a complete stigmatic body . . . you should be able to understand the truth Maria was trying to show us. You will contact Maria with your freezing. And as a mental body, you'll pass through the dimensional gate. Observe Maria's world as a human race. And deeply remember what you see!".

Maria Lancelot and Maria Elca might be the same person. That world is Maria Lancelot's own world. It's where she came from. So what we're seeing there might be the past of that world. Probably from before Maria came to Earth and tried to tell Gengo what happened. He couldn't understand it because he's human, but being a complete stigmatic body possessor, Kazuya can understand it.

Edit2: Oh, potentially more proof that Maria Lancelot and Maria Elca Nova are the same person. On the site with tsukkomi, go check out pages 31 and 32 of Chapter 205. Maria Lancelot's own soul same out and hugged Kazuya and took him into that world, all the while looking Gengo in the face all smug-like and smiling.

Edit3: In Chapter 196, when Kazuya was using his power, he had the same eyes as Maria Lancelot and the Legendary Pandora. The transcended Pandora did as well.

It's in Chapter 195 that Kazuha and Kazuya talk. Right after Kazuya sees the vision what happened to Ryuuichi. Kazuya asks her what he has to do, and she tells him that she understood the Transcendent Will. She also tells him that she realized how fragile humans were, as well as some other things. "I already told you... I understood the Transcendent Will. I realized how fragile humans are, so I killed Mom...and dragged Dad...into misery. I didn't mean to hurt them.... I just obeyed my instincts. Even when I first started raising you, I didn't really care about you...the thing that Mom desired so much that she gave her life for it...the thing that Dad cared about more than anything...the thing that Grandpa wanted above all else...I wanted to make that thing mine...". Kazuya can't believe what she's saying. Kazuha continues: "Are you sad? Sorry, but it's true...'we' don't feel anything for family or any humans. That's how we are... or rather, that's how we're destined to evolve...But, humans truly are a mystery...they're hopelessly illogical animals, and yet they always learn from their failures and give birth to new possibilities. Emotions...ideals...and even values... learned about all of them bit by bit as I raised you...I learned why Mom did what she did, I learned why Cassandra was able to change, and I learned...how important family is. Which is why I decided to take a chance on the possibility that that man, Aoi Gengo, is betting on. You know, Kazuya...Grandpa already knows mankind's future can't be changed...Even so...he's doing all he can to prolong the time that humans can remain humans. It is beyond me to understand...what meaning there is in doing so...I tried to doing the same thing...protecting humans...protecting mankind's will...And of course, I protected my family, too...And after all that I have to say I felt pretty good. It's a little different than what Grandpa tried to protect...But after I tried to protect you...and everyone else, I found something new to value. Whether that was the right thing to do, or if it has any value, I don't know. But at the very least, the 'value' that was born through me...now lives on in you as the desire to protect that which you care about. And that makes you...the only being with a transcendent body able to understand the value in protecting humans. Mom gave birth to you, Dad protected you, and I...passed everything on to you. Aoi Kazua, you alone...are the only one with a stigmatic body able to side with mankind. So go on and protect them with all your might. Protect your precious friends and family...That in itself...Might be another possibility for this world that you can create."

Kazuha couldn't understand love at first, but she grew to understand it as she raised Kazuya, and she used her power to protect humanity. She raised Kazuya so that he'd be able to understand love, and as she said, he's the only one with a transcendent body (read: Nova body/stigmatic body, in this context) able to understand the value in protecting humans. The only one with a stigmatic able to side with mankind.

That's why he hasn't started acting like the Nova we know that come to threaten mankind even though he already has a complete stigma body. It's the reason why he seems human even though his body, at a genetic level, is already 100% Nova.

Normally, people with stigmatic bodies are meant to be like Kazuha was in the beginning. Which is why she said, "'we' don't feel anything for family or any humans. That's how we are... or rather, that's how we're destined to evolve". "We" here refers to people like her and Kazuya who possess a stigmatic body.

My description of the scene in Chapter 205 when Gengo starts talking might not be good enough, so it'd be good if you guys opened up that page on your end as well to see for yourselves.

[Culaio]

I dont see how it confims complete stigmatic body = 100% nova body, I mean Kazuha was acting inhuman(didnt feel love same way as humans do) when she had ONLY 12% stigmatic body which means she was mostly human, kazuya on other hand has twice amount kazuya(he has twice the amount at start of manga, now he has more) had when she didnt understand love and he didnt show at any point inability to feel love actually, and he seems to perceive world exactly same way humans do.

EDIT: if human like feelings decided if someone can be considered a nova or human with stigmatic body then Kazuya and Kazuha grandmother Maria Lancelot also isnt a nova since she posses compasion for humanity and since we know its not true then if kazuya has 100% nova body then he is a nova(maybe nova with human feelings but still a nova, there would be zero difference between him and his grandmother, both have same type of body and both have same feelings).
Also like I said in one of my previous posts using world stigmatic to describe 100% nova body wouldnt make sense since stigmatic means marked/tattooed body, which implies you still have your body but something about your body has changed.

[DragonOsman]

What Kazuha said was that people like them (stigmatic body possessors) aren't supposed to care for humans. They're meant to evolve the way Kazuha was going before she started to understand love. That's what Kazuha told Kazuya. But she started to understand love and developed human feelings as she raised her brother, and she tried to pass that on to her brother. That's why Kazuya has compassion and feelings. If it weren't for that, he'd be just like the Legendary Pandora as far as feelings go.

Kazuha understood the Transcendent Will. She knows what the Will wants and understands that humanity can't resist it. It's not clear that the Will wants to destroy humanity, though. It's possible that it just wants to turn humanity into transcendental beings. But if that's the case, then maybe the way Maria is helping Gengo do it is different and actually less harmful than the Will's way or will keep humanity as still "human". Or it could just be that the Will wants to assimilate Earth into itself which will effectively end humanity and Maria is trying to either stop that or give humans a chance to remain themselves for longer because she knows that humanity has no hope.

And please understand that we're saying that having a complete stigmatic body makes you 100% Nova at a genetic level. Kazuya having a complete stigmatic body means that his body is completely covered with stigmatic tissue. His skin looks human, but it's actually all Stigmata. His skin is actually all Nova skin now. His body is completely that of a Nova. That's what it means. Having a complete stigmatic body means that your whole body is covered in stigmatic tissue.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

What Kazuha said was that people like them (stigmatic body possessors) aren't supposed to care for humans. They're meant to evolve the way Kazuha was going before she started to understand love. That's what Kazuha told Kazuya. But she started to understand love and developed human feelings as she raised her brother, and she tried to pass that on to her brother. That's why Kazuya has compassion and feelings. If it weren't for that, he'd be just like the Legendary Pandora as far as feelings go.

Kazuha understood the Transcendent Will. She knows what the Will wants and understands that humanity can't resist it. It's not clear that the Will wants to destroy humanity, though. It's possible that it just wants to turn humanity into transcendental beings. But if that's the case, then maybe the way Maria is helping Gengo do it is different and actually less harmful than the Will's way or will keep humanity as still "human". Or it could just be that the Will wants to assimilate Earth into itself which will effectively end humanity and Maria is trying to either stop that or give humans a chance to remain themselves for longer because she knows that humanity has no hope.

And please understand that we're saying that having a complete stigmatic body makes you 100% Nova at a genetic level. Kazuya having a complete stigmatic body means that his body is completely covered with stigmatic tissue. His skin looks human, but it's actually all Stigmata. His skin is actually all Nova skin now. His body is completely that of a Nova. That's what it means. Having a complete stigmatic body means that your whole body is covered in stigmatic tissue.

I dont think we will come to agreement about this, especially the part about complete stigmatic body making you 100% nova genetically, since Gengo is a scientist and from science perespective if Kazuya has 100% nova body then kazuya IS part of Nova species now, so Gengo should have said that Kazuya is now completly a nova or at least that Kazuya's body is now completly that of nova, the fact that he uses stigmatic body to describe it implies that there are still differences between Kazuya' body and that of nova.

[Alhazad2003]

Originally Posted by Culaio

I dont think we will come to agreement about this, especially the part about complete stigmatic body making you 100% nova genetically, since Gengo is a scientist and from science perespective if Kazuya has 100% nova body then kazuya IS part of Nova species now, so Gengo should have said that Kazuya is now completly a nova or at least that Kazuya's body is now completly that of nova, the fact that he uses stigmatic body to describe it implies that there are still differences between Kazuya' body and that of nova.

Not exactly, early on in the Valkyries arc, Franka explains that the higher percentage of stigma tissue a person has, the closer said person is to being a Nova. So having a completely stigmatic body means that Kazuya has essentially become a Nova, even if Gengo doesn't specifically say it, that exactly what it means.

[DragonOsman]

^Thank you. To add: Nova's bodies produce Stigmata naturally, and they have bodies covered with Stigmata. The Stigmata that the Pandora have came from Maria Lancelot's own body, and she's a Nova. All of Gengo's family members that descended from her also have bodies that produce Stigmata naturally. And Kazuya's body tissue is the same as his grandmother's. So he's as much Nova as she is.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by Alhazad2003

Not exactly, early on in the Valkyries arc, Franka explains that the higher percentage of stigma tissue a person has, the closer said person is to being a Nova. So having a completely stigmatic body means that Kazuya has essentially become a Nova, even if Gengo doesn't specifically say it, that exactly what it means.

I do remember this, and I see your point but this still isnt to me 100% proof, let me explain why, it doesnt say that someone with 100% nova genetics can be said to have stigmatic body only that the more stigmatic body you have the closer you are to actual nova, look at crossbreeds, the more genes it has to one or other parent species the closer its to that species but once it reaches 100%(if you are 99% one species and 1% other you are still technically crossbreed) genes from one of parent species it cant be called crossbreed it simply becomes part of that parent species.

Same could be for people with stigmatic bodies.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

^Thank you. To add: Nova's bodies produce Stigmata naturally, and they have bodies covered with Stigmata. The Stigmata that the Pandora have came from Maria Lancelot's own body, and she's a Nova. All of Gengo's family members that descended from her also have bodies that produce Stigmata naturally. And Kazuya's body tissue is the same as his grandmother's. So he's as much Nova as she is.

we dont have it confirmed that all people with stigmatic bodies had % of stigmatic bodies increase with time, the fact that kazuha had less even though she was older then kazuya kinda implies that her didnt increase, the fact that % increase with time for kazuya is actually unnatural, yes nova cells produce more nova cells BUT human cells would produce more human cells, so % shouldnt increase with time unless nova cells destroy or assimilate human cells but this would make us wonder why same doesnt happen to pandora that have stigmata's implanted(but thats completly different topic)

[DragonOsman]

Kazuya is so far the only one we know of whose amount of stigmatic tissue increased with time. He's probably just special somehow. But I wasn't talking about that. What I'm saying is just that his body is the same as a Nova's now. He has a body that naturally produces Stigmata like an actual Nova.

But you do bring up a good point about human cells increasing unless the Nova cells assimilate them. We need more info on that, I guess.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Kazuya is so far the only one we know of whose amount of stigmatic tissue increased with time. He's probably just special somehow. But I wasn't talking about that. What I'm saying is just that his body is the same as a Nova's now. He has a body that naturally produces Stigmata like an actual Nova.

But you do bring up a good point about human cells increasing unless the Nova cells assimilate them. We need more info on that, I guess.

well technically all natural hybrids had amount of nova cells increase at the beginning of life since all life starts from single egg cell, so cells including nova cells were multiplying until it reached certain point at which nova cells stoped increasing it seems, for everyone but kazuya.

true, we need to know more.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, every one else who has a stigmatic body had their stigmatic tissue stop increasing once it matured, whereas Kazuya's kept growing until it reached 100%. He also said he isn't human, after the battle where he used his power to control Pandora and make them transcend. Satellizer kept trying to console him, which finally succeeded eventually and they kissed, but the fact remains that Kazuya himself thinks he isn't human anymore. And if his Nova cells have eroded his body, then yeah, he's right: He isn't human anymore.

Also, when I looked back at those chapters, I noticed that he had the same eyes as his grandmother and the Legendary Pandora do when he was using his power. And it seem like they're Nova eyes.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Yeah, every one else who has a stigmatic body had their stigmatic tissue stop increasing once it matured, whereas Kazuya's kept growing until it reached 100%. He also said he isn't human, after the battle where he used his power to control Pandora and make them transcend. Satellizer kept trying to console him, which finally succeeded eventually and they kissed, but the fact remains that Kazuya himself thinks he isn't human anymore. And if his Nova cells have eroded his body, then yeah, he's right: He isn't human anymore.

Also, when I looked back at those chapters, I noticed that he had the same eyes as his grandmother and the Legendary Pandora do when he was using his power. And it seem like they're Nova eyes.

technically he never was truly human since he always was a hybrid of two species,if he had only small % nova tissue then he technically was almost a human but with 30% and more big part of him wasnt human.

Rana also had eyes like that when she equiped valkyrie gear and fallen under influnce of nova will

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, but Kazuya wasn't under Nova will. He was doing something that only a Nova commander should be able to do normally.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Yeah, but Kazuya wasn't under Nova will. He was doing something that only a Nova commander should be able to do normally.

True, I was just trying to show that being nova is not only way to gain the eyes.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, but they have to powered-up to a certain level have them if they aren't Nova. Didn't the Pandora that Kazuya made transcend also have those eyes? Rana had them when she was in sync with the Transcendent Will and when she was controlled by a Nova Commander.

[Alhazad2003]

Spoiler for Chapter 214:

The chapter starts with Kazuya challenging Darth Gengo, trying to stop the madness. The Dark Lord sends his soldiers after him, but Kazuya neutralizes them with Freezing. He then speaks to Elca Satellizer through Freezing, and she rises up and rallies her troops for a counterattack. But then Darth Gengo's goddesses intervene, crushing Satellizer underfoot and stomping out the resistance, leaving the heroes of Elca in dire straits.

Elsewhere, Arcadia relays what's happening to her mother and aunts (I'm just guessing here), and Cassandra reaches out to Earth's Satellizer through Freezing, as the chapter comes to an end.