Why is gundam leaning toward the "godly" type?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Well, I never had any problem with "poor animation". I mostly stuck to watching them because of the stories. Does that make me evil?

Not at all; most of us who like watching older shows are likely to feel the same way.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

I'll add on, gundams have to be godly in the later series as they have to appeal towards the younger generation.

I wasn't aware that Mobile Suit Gundam could be construed as a "later series".

Originally Posted by brolycjw

And to those who think that animation quality is what determines the quality of the show, that is just being immature.

Nonsense. People have different criteria for judging the quality of a show, and aimation quality is most certainly a legitimate criterion.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Zeon's technology was supposed to heavily disadvantaged against the Federation's secret weapons at the start and this was explicitly stated in the anime, yet the Zakus were still a threat and the only weaponry advantage the RX-78-2 had was the beam rifle which was severely limited in ammo.

In case you forgot, Char's Zaku II was explicitly shown as being incapable of damaging the RX-78. If I recall correctly, it wasn't even seriously damaged despite getting shot multiple times in the head.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by brolycjw

And to those who think that animation quality is what determines the quality of the show, that is just being immature. All I can see in the CE series are just fan-service and more fan-service, nothing appealing in terms of story or character.

Hold on, who's talking about the quality of the show here? We're talking about battle scenes. How well these play out is directly proportional to how good the animation is. Destiny gets a lot of criticism for stock footage; well, that's an animation issue right there.

Anyway, technology is overrated when discussing animation quality. Cartoons from the 1950's, before cost-cutting techniques were introduced, were better animated than any anime today. Animation techniques, however, improve over time, and that's the problem with most TV shows from the First Gundam era. Even so, some of the battle scenes that were done especially for the First Gundam movies were very well animated. However, none of the Gundam vs. Red Zaku fights belong in that category.

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ 4Tran

I think he was referring to the "later" Gundam shows - in the latest AU series.

[Dan the Man]

You know, I think this might be a set of trends that go along with the times... It's kind of far-fetched theory... but in the original few series', the Gundams were rare, had a distinct advantage over average suits, but were by no means invincible, and were damaged often. By the early 90's, with the OVA's, the MS were more realistic, and suits in 0080 and 08th MS were almost identical, leaving the results of a battle solely up to skill and chance. G Gundam and the series afterward in the 90's and 00's made Gundams more special and superpowered, which lead into the SEED times, which bring in Gundams which are incredibly powerful and could devastate an army of mobile suits with practically a flick of the finger.
It all seems to be a matter of trends, and maybe at some point, the super-powered Gundams of today will be brought back into more realistic dimensions, and the strenth of the SEED's will be noted as a kind of trademark, like it was for Wing.

Now, as far as G Gundam goes, I don't think it enters into the godly discussion, as the story and setting of G is so out of context with all the other series' that it bears no real similarity apart from mobile suits, space colonies, and the Gundams themselves.


There's my opinion. Hope it's worth a damn.

[brolycjw]

I wasn't aware that Mobile Suit Gundam could be construed as a "later series".

I didn't state that MSG was a later series. Don't put words into my mouth.

Nonsense. People have different criteria for judging the quality of a show, and aimation quality is most certainly a legitimate criterion.

It may be a legitimate criterion when you compare animations of the same era, but how can you compare animation in the 80s to animation now? To dismiss a show just because of its animation quality which was severely limited by the technology at that time is being immature, that was what I meant.

In case you forgot, Char's Zaku II was explicitly shown as being incapable of damaging the RX-78. If I recall correctly, it wasn't even seriously damaged despite getting shot multiple times in the head.

Yet it was still capable of damaging it, and that was my point. Were the grunts in GSD able to damage the Akatsuki at all?

[Dan the Man]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

In case you forgot, Char's Zaku II was explicitly shown as being incapable of damaging the RX-78. If I recall correctly, it wasn't even seriously damaged despite getting shot multiple times in the head.

Actually, in one of the earlier fights in MSG (at least in the movie trilogy), the Zaku's heat hawk sliced right through the Gundam's shield, which should logically be made of the same armor as the Gundam, if not much denser and sturdy than the armor itself. The Gundam's foot was also sliced off by a Gouf's heat rod. The Zaku rifle obviously had no effect, as clearly shown in the first fight, but melee weapons and heavier weapons like bazookas and beams can do the job. A skilled Zaku pilot can destroy the Gundam, it's just really, really, REALLY frikkin' hard to do.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by brolycjw

I didn't state that MSG was a later series. Don't put words into my mouth.

I believe his point is that the RX-78 was also "godly" "as they have to appeal towards the younger generation". While you said it only applied to "later series".

Originally Posted by brolycjw

It may be a legitimate criterion when you compare animations of the same era, but how can you compare animation in the 80s to animation now? To dismiss a show just because of its animation quality which was severely limited by the technology at that time is being immature, that was what I meant.

Again, technology in animation from the 1990's are the same as those from the 80's, 70's and 60's. So technology has nothing to do with the poor animation in MGS.

Yet it was still capable of damaging it, and that was my point. Were the grunts in GSD able to damage the Akatsuki at all?

No, but grunts were able to destroy the Chaos Gundam though, not to mention that there WERE a few Zaku Warriors and Gouf Igniteds that stood up against Gundams and fought pretty much evenly, especially in the first half of the show. The second half of the show is different, but no average grunt was able to touch the RX-78 in the second half of MSG either, just a bunch of unique ace suits.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That isn't really true at all. Numbers weren't exactly meaningful in many combats in Zeta or ZZ or Char's Counterattack. They made a (very tiny) difference in Mobile Suit Gundam and Victory, but that's about it for the main UC works. Likewise, superior Gundams weren't entirely capable of standing against overwhelming numbers in parts of Gundam X, but that's true for Seed as well. Turn A is sort of an oddball wherein the logic of combat doesn't really apply.

lol, I guess numbers indeed weren't exactly meaningful when in ZZ, Gundam MkII + Gundam Zeta + Gundam ZZ + Hyakkushiki piloted by the main protagonist almost got owned by a Gelgoog in a desert

The thing about the older Gundams is that when the main protagonist does have certain superiority, it's not cheesy over the top. Usually they fight in small numbers, MS are powerful weapons and there are only some hundreds of them during the whole war, and the most uneven fight is like about 5 vs. 15 which is still believeable, and the main protagonist has to struggle very hard to win. But since W, it becomes 3 vs. 100 easily, and in SEED Destiny it's like 3 vs. 1000 with no sweat.

Of course starting from W it seems the enemies get the ability to mass produce thousands upon thousands of MS to be slaughtered by the main protagonists

It's necessary to give the main protagonists some advantage for them to be heroes of the show, but there's a line where it becomes totally surreal.

[brolycjw]

Originally Posted by brightman

I believe his point is that the RX-78 was also "godly" "as they have to appeal towards the younger generation". While you said it only applied to "later series".

RX-78 was not godly at all, it was superior but certainly not to the extent of being untouchable.

Again, technology in animation from the 1990's are the same as those from the 80's, 70's and 60's. So technology has nothing to do with the poor animation in MGS.

Wrong, animation was hand-drawn back in the 1980s and it was only in the late 1990s that animation started to be produced with the aid of computers.

No, but grunts were able to destroy the Chaos Gundam though, not to mention that there WERE a few Zaku Warriors and Gouf Igniteds that stood up against Gundams and fought pretty much evenly, especially in the first half of the show. The second half of the show is different, but no average grunt was able to touch the RX-78 in the second half of MSG either, just a bunch of unique ace suits.

RX-78's armor was not improved at all in the later half of MSG, the only reason why they weren't able to touch it was due to Amuro's improving piloting skills and developing newtype powers.

Mass producing suits is really stupid when your opponent has Weapons of Mass Destruction all over their MS. It was still acceptable in Gundam X where charging the Satellite cannon requires some time but in W the twin buster rifle is simply ludicrous.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by brightman

The second half of the show is different, but no average grunt was able to touch the RX-78 in the second half of MSG either, just a bunch of unique ace suits.

The grunts can't touch RX-78 because Amuro is smart enough not to charge into an army of grunts headon on his own. If Bright tells Amuro to fight 50 Zaku on his own headon, he'll turn around and shoot Bright in the face. But for Wing and GSD heroes, they'll more like "that's piece of cake" After all there is a difference between Saving Private Ryan and RAMBO

numbers by themselves don't mean much, but numbers coupled with the way how the fight goes on do mean a lot

1: one MS with superior technology fights two enemies headon and defeats them, that's believable

2: one MS fights enemies 1 vs 10, and after a hard fight uses tricks and skills to defeat them, that's also believable

3: one MS fights enemies 1 vs 50 by leading them into a trap that destroys them, again believable

4: one MS fights enemies 1 vs 50 headon and defeats them no sweat, that's... "godly" MS

when the older shows tend to have situations like 1, 2, and 3, the newer shows have more and more type 4 encounters. Not to mention Akatsuki which can basically stand there and let the grunts shoot themselves up

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

Cartoons from the 1950's, before cost-cutting techniques were introduced, were better animated than any anime today.

Heh. If you're talking about Disney and the like, it'd be more accurate to say that they weren't allowed to pay animators slave wages any more.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

I think he was referring to the "later" Gundam shows - in the latest AU series.

Oh, I know; that's why I put the smiley there. But it's ironic that same statement would also apply to Mobile Suit Gundam.

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

You know, I think this might be a set of trends that go along with the times... It's kind of far-fetched theory... but in the original few series', the Gundams were rare, had a distinct advantage over average suits, but were by no means invincible, and were damaged often. By the early 90's, with the OVA's, the MS were more realistic, and suits in 0080 and 08th MS were almost identical, leaving the results of a battle solely up to skill and chance. G Gundam and the series afterward in the 90's and 00's made Gundams more special and superpowered, which lead into the SEED times, which bring in Gundams which are incredibly powerful and could devastate an army of mobile suits with practically a flick of the finger.
It all seems to be a matter of trends, and maybe at some point, the super-powered Gundams of today will be brought back into more realistic dimensions, and the strenth of the SEED's will be noted as a kind of trademark, like it was for Wing.

As far as looking at the overall trends, it's quite apparent that it's the OVAs have been the anomaly - just about all of the other works have their own version of the super-Gundam syndrome.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

I didn't state that MSG was a later series. Don't put words into my mouth.

I didn't; I was making fun of what you said.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

It may be a legitimate criterion when you compare animations of the same era, but how can you compare animation in the 80s to animation now? To dismiss a show just because of its animation quality which was severely limited by the technology at that time is being immature, that was what I meant.

Of course you can. It's silly to force people to watch (and like) shows that they aren't inclined to. A certain portion of the population won't watch shows with older or poor animation, others really detest anything with bad writing and so forth. Animation quality is most certainly a defining quality of animated works just as acting is a defining quality, so how can it be an immature criterion?

And what is claiming that it's impossible to compare the animation from different eras supposed to prove? That it's impossible for older works to look as good as newer ones? Or that it's unfair to compare works which are given different budgets?

You and I may not care all that much about animation quality, but it's foolish to claim that other people can't think otherwise.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Yet it was still capable of damaging it, and that was my point.

By "it wasn't even seriously damaged", I meant that Gundam suffered the "enough damage to shake the pilot around, but not enough to actually effect the vehicle" kind of damage. For all intents and purposes, the RX-78 suffered no damage from Char's Zaku II.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Were the grunts in GSD able to damage the Akatsuki at all?

They certainly should be able to with their secondary weapons.

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

A skilled Zaku pilot can destroy the Gundam, it's just really, really, REALLY frikkin' hard to do.

It's theoretically possible, but then again, it's also theoretically possible for just about any line mobile suit to damage any Gundam. The only exceptions I can think of would be some of the more ineffective Oz units. This is most certainly not something that distinguishes the depiction of UC mobile suits from those from other universes.

Originally Posted by hipeach

lol, I guess numbers indeed weren't exactly meaningful when in ZZ, Gundam MkII + Gundam Zeta + Gundam ZZ + Hyakkushiki piloted by the main protagonist almost got owned by a Gelgoog in a desert

Igg. I've been trying to excise the majority of ZZ from my memory . I think this can be filed under "ZZ Inconsistencies" , of which there are too many to list. (And too painful to recall )

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Wrong, animation was hand-drawn back in the 1980s and it was only in the late 1990s that animation started to be produced with the aid of computers.

Actually most of the animation in anime, even in the late 1990s is hand-drawn. This certainly applies to all of the Gundam shows up to Turn A. I'm not sure what role the computer had, but Turn A itself used cel animation. Then again, even most of today's anime is still hand-drawn (albeit computer-colored), so I'm not sure what your point is.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

RX-78's armor was not improved at all in the later half of MSG, the only reason why they weren't able to touch it was due to Amuro's improving piloting skills and developing newtype powers.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to make it seem any less silly.

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Mass producing suits is really stupid <SNIP>

The ideas of how mass production works has always been one of the Gundam franchise's weak points, so this is nothing new. The mass produced models in the later Gundam shows have about the same theoretical chance of damaging a Gundam as the Zeon pilots had of damaging the first Gundam.

Originally Posted by hipeach

2: one MS fights enemies 1 vs 10, and after a hard fight uses tricks and skills to defeat them, that's also believable

Where would you put Mr. "Nine Rick Doms in five minutes"?

Originally Posted by hipeach

4: one MS fights enemies 1 vs 50 headon and defeats them no sweat, that's... "godly" MS

Strangely enough, this has happened in real life as well. In World War II, Tiger commanders would often take advantage of their tanks' superior armor protection and charge head-on into enemy armored columns and slaughter them. The most famous user of this tactic is Michael Wittman, the top tank ace of that (or any other) war.

The main difference between this and Gundam shows is that the historical accounts are far more entertaining than the animated shows. Then again, I'm not very fond of Gundam combat choreography in general.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by hipeach

After all there is a difference between Saving Private Ryan and RAMBO

You mean besides the fact that Rambo: First Blood Part II and Rambo III don't pretend to be realistic? Or are you referring to the fact that Rambo: First Blood is arguably more realistic that Saving Private Ryan?

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Where would you put Mr. "Nine Rick Doms in five minutes"?

well it was actually more like a 4 vs 12 fight, and he did use tricks and maneuvers to run and hide from enemy sight and go around to the behind. And it was regarded as a miraculous victory. While in GSD, even Shin in the lame Impulse consistently slaughter dozens of enemy MS on his own without doing much manuever except shooting and charging forward, which was regarded normal

Strangely enough, this has happened in real life as well. In World War II, Tiger commanders would often take advantage of their tanks' superior armor protection and charge head-on into enemy armored columns and slaughter them. The most famous user of this tactic is Michael Wittman, the top tank ace of that (or any other) war.

well, I'm not sure where you get the Michael Wittman like to charge head-on into enemy army idea. as far as I know, for his most famous battle, he was actually running away from the incoming enemy force to avoid a headon encounter, but luckily stumbles behind the enemy and off the road in the grass, so he picks off the enemy vehicle where the enemy has no idea where he is. Also despite being the greatest tank ace of all time, he ended up killed by some random Firefly in the end

Another thing is, while it is possible for someone to have some "godly" superweapons like nukes and such, it's more fun to watch the main protagonists fight against those superweapons than watch the main protagonists using them to slaughter enemies. Guess that's why we have lots of movies showing heroes racing against time to disarm nukes, instead of heroes throwing nukes around to wipe out their enemies Guess that's also why many people want to see more Gundam shows where the main protagonsts don't have "godly" Gundams And the newer shows indeed have more of those type-4 "godly" Gundam while the older shows are mostly of type 1, 2, and 3 (for the main protagonist side that is, and usually they need to fight some enemy "godly" superweapon)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hipeach

well it was actually more like a 4 vs 12 fight, and he did use tricks and maneuvers to run and hide from enemy sight and go around to the behind. And it was regarded as a miraculous victory. While in GSD, even Shin in the lame Impulse consistently slaughter dozens of enemy MS on his own without doing much manuever except shooting and charging forward, which was regarded normal

You just had to use one of my least favorite examples of mecha combat. The battle in Mobile Suit Gundam is definitely better than that particular one in Destiny. However, it's still largely a matter of degree and I would say that neither are exactly examples of good combat choreography. More to the point, they're not particularly realistic nor interesting.


As an aside, there seem to be two very distinct ideas in this topic: the question of whether the combats in Gundam shows are realistic, and the question of whether they're entertaining. I think that it's safe to say that the answer to the former is "no", while the latter is a matter of personal preference.

Originally Posted by hipeach

Another thing is, while it is possible for someone to have some "godly" superweapons like nukes and such, it's more fun to watch the main protagonists fight against those superweapons than watch the main protagonists using them to slaughter enemies.

These are two different things. Moreover, it's not even related to the topic since very few mobile suits can be considered superweapons.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by hipeach

well, I'm not sure where you get the Michael Wittman like to charge head-on into enemy army idea.

That's because it was his standard tactic on the Western Front (and he employed it even at Villers Bocage). He knew that few of the Allied weapons had much chance of penetrating a Tiger's frontal armor. And by attacking aggressively, he could disrupt an enemy unit's cohesion, thereby allowing him to come ahead against superior numbers.

In fact, it was likely this very tactic that got Wittman killed as he was in the process of attacking a British column when his tank was knocked out (likely by said Firefly). The Sherman Firefly's 17-pdr was one of the very few Western guns that could penetrate a Tiger (and only if it was firing APDS ammunition).

[brolycjw]

By "it wasn't even seriously damaged", I meant that Gundam suffered the "enough damage to shake the pilot around, but not enough to actually effect the vehicle" kind of damage. For all intents and purposes, the RX-78 suffered no damage from Char's Zaku II.

Actually, Char's Zaku was able to cut into Gundam's armor with the tomahawk and the other Zakus have the same weapons.

They certainly should be able to with their secondary weapons.

Nope, that is a mere assumption.

Actually most of the animation in anime, even in the late 1990s is hand-drawn. This certainly applies to all of the Gundam shows up to Turn A. I'm not sure what role the computer had, but Turn A itself used cel animation. Then again, even most of today's anime is still hand-drawn (albeit computer-colored), so I'm not sure what your point is.

Note: "AID" of computers. They were still hand-drawn, but had the help of computers, whether be it coloring or compiling.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to make it seem any less silly.

My point was about "godly" gundams and not "godly" pilots, silly.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You just had to use one of my least favorite examples of mecha combat. The battle in Mobile Suit Gundam is definitely better than that particular one in Destiny. However, it's still largely a matter of degree and I would say that neither are exactly examples of good combat choreography. More to the point, they're not particularly realistic nor interesting.

well, anime battles are never as realistic as reality, but there is a line where it goes into downright surreality, which Wing and GSD are stepping into technically 5 vs 15 to 3 vs 100 can be said as a matter of degree, but like the saying goes, there comes the transition from quantity to quality

As an aside, there seem to be two very distinct ideas in this topic: the question of whether the combats in Gundam shows are realistic, and the question of whether they're entertaining. I think that it's safe to say that the answer to the former is "no", while the latter is a matter of personal preference.

well, my point is just that, in shows like Wing and GSD, it is indeed a lot more of super "godly" Gundam of type 4 encounters than the older shows, and it is quite understandable some people want less of those "godly" Gundam

These are two different things. Moreover, it's not even related to the topic since very few mobile suits can be considered superweapons.

well, those "godly" protagonist gundam in Wing and GSD are quite superweapons better than even nukes

That's because it was his standard tactic on the Western Front (and he employed it even at Villers Bocage). He knew that few of the Allied weapons had much chance of penetrating a Tiger's frontal armor. And by attacking aggressively, he could disrupt an enemy unit's cohesion, thereby allowing him to come ahead against superior numbers.

In fact, it was likely this very tactic that got Wittman killed as he was in the process of attacking a British column when his tank was knocked out (likely by said Firefly). The Sherman Firefly's 17-pdr was one of the very few Western guns that could penetrate a Tiger (and only if it was firing APDS ammunition).

well, he actually likes to do ambush and surprise attack a lot, he also has his own team, and he's smart enough to not expose his weak points. But then his team's other Tigers are not necessarily as lucky (and skilled) as him...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Actually, Char's Zaku was able to cut into Gundam's armor with the tomahawk and the other Zakus have the same weapons.

When did this happen, and what's the point of bringing it up?

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Nope, that is a mere assumption.

Why do you say that?

Originally Posted by brolycjw

Note: "AID" of computers. They were still hand-drawn, but had the help of computers, whether be it coloring or compiling.

Brightman's point was that the technology used in the Gundam shows in the '90s is the same as that used in the earlier ones. How does this refute that?

Besides, how does it make any difference what technique is used in the coloring process? Do you really think that digital color is superior to hand painting to such a degree that there's no way to compare the two?

Originally Posted by brolycjw

My point was about "godly" gundams and not "godly" pilots, silly.

In that case, I'll refer you to the necromancy-powered Gundams designed in the '80s.

By the way, what's your point referring to? If it's about the question of realism, then a "godly" Gundam is much more realistic than a "godly" pilot. Heck, since you been complaining about the Cosmic Era shows,

Originally Posted by hipeach

well, anime battles are never as realistic as reality, but there is a line where it goes into downright surreality, which Wing and GSD are stepping into

Well, with melee weapons depicted as valid weapon choices, it's pretty obvious that the Gundam shows have been deep in the surreal zone all along. And then there's the stuff like psychic powers... I'm really not sure how anyone can argue that the UC Gundam TV shows are any more realistic than the other Gundam shows. While it's true that most anime battles aren't realistic, there are degrees of realism, and all of the Gundam TV shows weighs in at the Super Robot end.

Originally Posted by hipeach

well, my point is just that, in shows like Wing and GSD, it is indeed a lot more of super "godly" Gundam of type 4 encounters than the older shows, and it is quite understandable some people want less of those "godly" Gundam

Perhaps, but there's still really not that much difference between them.

Originally Posted by hipeach

well, those "godly" protagonist gundam in Wing and GSD are quite superweapons better than even nukes

Nope, that's not even close. Nuclear weapons are far more effective than any of the mobile suits in either show.

[Elluh]

Anybody think that its a little weird that ZAFT was able to equal the Earth Alliance?

I know that ZAFT has as many resources as the Earth Alliance does,but this is another reason of why I like UC over CE.

ZAFT should not have been able to go on as long as it did for the simple fact that they didn't have the man power(Compared to their being over a billion people on Earth).In Mobile Suit Gundam and CCA,Zeon/Neo-Zeon does well,but eventually they end up losing simply because they didn't have enough manpower.

It's crazy that there can be two wars in two years,and ZAFT still functions basically the same.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Elluh

Anybody think that its a little weird that ZAFT was able to equal the Earth Alliance?

I know that ZAFT has as many resources as the Earth Alliance does,but this is another reason of why I like UC over CE.

ZAFT should not have been able to go on as long as it did for the simple fact that they didn't have the man power(Compared to their being over a billion people on Earth).In Mobile Suit Gundam and CCA,Zeon/Neo-Zeon does well,but eventually they end up losing simply because they didn't have enough manpower.

It's crazy that there can be two wars in two years,and ZAFT still functions basically the same.

Why don't you just refer to Orb and get it over with? Orb has a fraction of the people that ZAFT has and still be the most powerful nation in the vicinity of Earth...

But that's just the thing. In CE, manpower don't mean jack. One person can defeat thousands of people, and technology rules all. ZAFT can match EA because of technology, and Orb can match them both with its own technology.

This isn't necessarily unrealistic though, as better technology has pretty much always equaled victory prior to the 20th century, though nowadays it doesn't mean jacked.

But anyway, neither Neo Zeons lost due to lack of manpower... They were both defeated by squads much smaller than themselves actually. And the One Year War has heavy WWII influences, so its not like the whole idea of Zeon losing due to lack of manpower was particularly original.

[Elluh]

Actually I was not thinking about ORB,though now that you mention it they are a powerful nation(And I guess its only natural that everybody wants a piece because they maintain their neutrality).

Yes I got the OYW WWII references with the Nazi's and whatnot(That might have been one of the more obvious references that I can think of).

Amuro stopped Char's plan in CCA,but with or without him Zeon IMO would have eventually fallen.It's just not reasonable that a Nation with limited Manpower could control Earth for long(Though with Char's plan...).

But its an awesome point that Technology>Grutns in CE(Kira beam spammage)

I personally still don't see how a Nation with what was it,10-100 million residents could successfully fight two major Wars within two years,and basically show mo signs of suffering at all.It's not like they even gave the Earth Alliance a chance

[Paininator]

They'd have to carry a LOT of fuel in order to stay in the air, and maneuver in the air.
:|