[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

What about my theory that Kinzo is racist though? His Beatrice fantasy is clearly a reference to the "aryan master race" idea in Nazi germany with the whole blonde hair and blue eyes thing. Heck Battler even... hell I can't go there...

I think he just has a thing for western stuff. Part of the reason may just be an admiration of the cultural differences; Kinzo likes risk-taking and unorthodox behavior, which are not stereotypically or culturally Japanese things to admire.

Black magic is not his only western interest. It's mentioned he had an American West thing going on for a while, which is why he has all those Winchesters.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

I think he just has a thing for western stuff. Part of the reason may just be an admiration of the cultural differences; Kinzo likes risk-taking and unorthodox behavior, which are not stereotypically or culturally Japanese things to admire.

Black magic is not his only western interest. It's mentioned he had an American West thing going on for a while, which is why he has all those Winchesters.

Yeah I knew about that too. I just wanted an opinion.

[Kylon99]

I like the idea that Kanon gave us in EP6 about how Kinzo was in reality sometimes a good prankster. I don't think we've had an objective view of Kinzo yet (maybe in EP7? ) and I get the feeling maybe he was as much a screwball as Battler is. 8)

Maybe that's why Tahyllis's portrayal of him in his latest video feels so spot on for me. 8)

[Renall]

He strikes me a much more impulsive and playful person than he has been portrayed to be. His role as a phantom of the epitaph ritual makes him out to be a brooding planner, but that seems not to square with what has been said about him (his risk-taking, his youthful aimlessness, his alleged playfulness and pranks).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

He strikes me a much more impulsive and playful person than he has been portrayed to be. His role as a phantom of the epitaph ritual makes him out to be a brooding planner, but that seems not to square with what has been said about him (his risk-taking, his youthful aimlessness, his alleged playfulness and pranks).

His tendency to jump out of third-story windows during a typhoon...

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

His tendency to jump out of third-story windows during a typhoon...

Was it in EP6 where, when they were speculating that Kinzo might have gone out for a walk that the ghost of Kinzo screamed, "I always go for random walks for absolutely no reason!" or something?

I played it all in Japanese but now it all exists as English in my head. And now I can't differentiate it with Tahyills's videos...

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Was it in EP6 where, when they were speculating that Kinzo might have gone out for a walk that the ghost of Kinzo screamed, "I always go for random walks for absolutely no reason!" or something?

It was in EP5, when the family was inside Kinzo's study.

Practically from what we have read, no matter what sort of things Kinzo had accomplished or done, their children would not be surprised, no even his servants and friends.

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Chrono's theory: I suppose arguing what a demented should think is quite meaningless, so I am not going to ask questions like how Sayo could maintain her mental stability when part of her loved Jessica, part of her loved Battler, part of her loved George and part of her being the lover of Kinzo, or how she conveniently shrifted the identity when she wanted.



Anyway, I got some few other questions, concerning the completeness of the theory:

Did she also had an alternative personality called Yoshiya, sub-personality under Kanon?

Why Shannon had to impose as Kanon? What's use of Kanon to Kinzo? Why it must be Shannon?

What if someone actually solved the epitaph? Would Shannon go crazy (despite she already was) since the ritual had to be stopped and Golden Land could not be reached? So what really happened in EP5?

How could Jessica not discover that Kanon was a fake person imposed by Sayo?

What happened for EP3's 1st twilight?

What about Kanon's death in EP4?

Is there really a body in front of Hideyoshi in EP1, since "Kanon" was standing next to him?

[Raiza Sunozaki]

There's a few problems I have with your theory Chrono, but as you said, we're all allowed to agree or disagree with you.
First of all, I still don't accept Shkanon. I never have, no matter how many hints there are to it. Now, I haven't had the ability to read Episode 6, but when I do, I'm sure I can come to a logical explanation for all the Shkanon hints that don't require Shkanon. It's partially out of my stupid adoration for Ryuukishi's cheesy way of writing the teenage romances, but also because I prefer to refuse Erika's existence than deny Shannon's or Kanon's.
Second, I know it hasn't been blantantly said, but my interpretation of the games is that Beato, or the person pretending to be her in the meta-world, is not the one murdering people on Rokkenjima. Out of a desire not to die, or out of love for Battler, she takes the blame for the murders as the Golden Witch Beatrice and challenges Battler to disprove her, hoping that he'll be able to find the true culprit in doing so. So from my interpretation, I can't see Shannon as the culprit, if she is also Beato.
Thirdly, you're saying that Shannon is killing everybody using impossible means, to make everyone (I'm interpreting this means the entire world) believe they were killed by the witch's magic. If this is correct, I feel it completely goes against what Battler's fighting for in the Episode 5 ura-tea party and what I know of Episode 6. Once he understands Beato, he fights to bring her back so he can take her out of Purgatoria and into the real world. I may be thinking the wrong way, but if he truly understood Beato, I'd think he'd aim to complete what she originally started: to find the miracle that allows him to solve the mysteries and find the kakera with the best conclusion to the gameboard.

But wow... the amount of effort it looks like you put into this really impressed me. It's inspiring me to actually put together a coherent theory, instead of just shooting off stuff like this.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

This is because Meta-Beatrice and Sayo are completely different people. Remember how we hear that Meta-Beatrice has "lived for a thousand years"? I think that line is significant. I think Meta-Beatrice went through something before Meta-Battler showed up, possibly a logic error.

Highly doubtful. In EP 6 Lambda says to Littlesis-Beato that the only witches she knew to escape a logic error are Bern and herself. This implies very much so that Beatrice never faced a logical error. The only time they were possibly close to one was in EP 3 with Nanjo's death, but Beatrice used gold text on Evatrice to stop that it seems. In any case, I doubt Beatrice went through a logical error. Her need to cure 'boredom' is not nearly as high as Bern or Lambda's I personally think.

In addition to her rational reason, there's also the furniture reason. The idea she has of Beatrice is an evil witch, suitable for carrying out the instructions of the epitaph.

In EP 2 Shannon seemed to look at Beatrice as a kind yet respectable witch. From my impression it was Kanon who thought she was evil and despicable, but Shannon was completely grateful and nice to her.

[LyricalAura]

This is only tangentially related, but I just noticed something odd that I want to confirm. Can anyone point me at any scene in EP2 where Battler saw that Shannon was wearing her engagement ring? In the anime, it's shown during the original proposal, but her ring finger is bare in every scene after that.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

This is only tangentially related, but I just noticed something odd that I want to confirm. Can anyone point me at any scene in EP2 where Battler saw that Shannon was wearing her engagement ring? In the anime, it's shown during the original proposal, but her ring finger is bare in every scene after that.

Considering that their parents are all dead the very next morning, I don't think anyone is really worried about whether someone is wearing a ring or not. Besides, the anime isn't exactly the most reliable source of information. I can look in EP 2 raw manga (translation team hasn't gotten to the proposal yet) to see though.

Although a ring definietly exists I'm sure. EP 2 Rudolf overheard George practicing a proposal and there's a good chance he saw the ring itself. Unless he was lying to himself about seeing that, I think he can be credible enough.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

Considering that their parents are all dead the very next morning, I don't think anyone is really worried about whether someone is wearing a ring or not. Besides, the anime isn't exactly the most reliable source of information. I can look in EP 2 raw manga (translation team hasn't gotten to the proposal yet) to see though.

Although a ring definietly exists I'm sure. EP 2 Rudolf overheard George practicing a proposal and there's a good chance he saw the ring itself. Unless he was lying to himself about seeing that, I think he can be credible enough.

Oh, I'm not questioning whether the ring exists. I'm just questioning whether she really accepted it.

If she didn't accept it in EP2, there's a possibility she didn't accept it in EP1 either. Supposing Hideyoshi knew George was planning to propose, he might have lied about the ring being on her finger to spare his son's feelings.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Oh, I'm not questioning whether the ring exists. I'm just questioning whether she really accepted it.

If she didn't accept it in EP2, there's a possibility she didn't accept it in EP1 either. Supposing Hideyoshi knew George was planning to propose, he might have lied about the ring being on her finger to spare his son's feelings.

Well I checked the manga raws. So far only up to half of the 2nd twilight examination is up, but I did notice something.

In the scene with Rosa and co finding the chapter (before Battler) there's an image with Shannon having a ring on her left hand. Later on, with Battler in the room, the left hand is suddenly missing the ring.

This might need to wait until more chapters are out, but there isn't much Shannon yet.

[Judoh]

I always thought the ring they were talking about was the heads ring. I mean how many rings are there really in Umineko? Just two.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

Well I checked the manga raws. So far only up to half of the 2nd twilight examination is up, but I did notice something.

In the scene with Rosa and co finding the chapter (before Battler) there's an image with Shannon having a ring on her left hand. Later on, with Battler in the room, the left hand is suddenly missing the ring.

This might need to wait until more chapters are out, but there isn't much Shannon yet.

Bah, another theory I have to wait for more manga to test. I also need more EP3 manga so I can check the name on the stake Battler found in Kyrie's stomach, but that probably won't be out before EP7.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I always thought the ring they were talking about was the heads ring. I mean how many rings are there really in Umineko? Just two.

I'm pretty positive its an engagement ring. George is obviously in love with Shannon (sometimes to a scary limit) so I think he wouldn't mind proposing to her. Shannon also loves George, evident by EP 6.

Bah, another theory I have to wait for more manga to test. I also need more EP3 manga so I can check the name on the stake Battler found in Kyrie's stomach, but that probably won't be out before EP7.

Yeah you're gonna need to wait a while for that. They aren't even at the first twilight, last time I checked. EP 4 will only take longer, since it seems the mangaka is trying to get through all the Ange scenes ASAP.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Marion

I'm pretty positive its an engagement ring. George is obviously in love with Shannon (sometimes to a scary limit) so I think he wouldn't mind proposing to her. Shannon also loves George, evident by EP 6.

We don't have absolute proof of that. And I'm not going to deny he loves her, but don't you think it's possible that he would use the head's ring as an engagement ring? It would be impossible to refuse such an honor.

[Kylon99]

That is one of the theories, that the references to the rings is really the headship ring.

In that case, the ring went missing and had to have appeared within George, or possibly Eva and Hideyoshi's grasp.

Actually, I haven't really heard too many concrete theories that try to trace the ring, from Kinzo's finger to it showing up in various episodes. I always assumed whoever was executing Kinzo's will had possession of it. Essentially, 'Beatrice.'

Right?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Judoh

We don't have absolute proof of that. And I'm not denying he loves her, but don't you think it's possible that he would use the head's ring as an engagement ring? It would be impossible to refuse such an honor.

For starters, how would he even get the ring? It sounds more likely that Shannon would have a better chance to snatch the ring. Plus, you do realize that once they see the head ring on Shannon everyone will majorly freak out. Having the ring doesn't automatically make you the head in my opinion.

Also, from the way George talked about his future goals in EP 1 it makes me think that he would prefer Shannon to take the role of a housewife, rather than the head of such a large family.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

That is one of the theories, that the references to the rings is really the headship ring.

In that case, the ring went missing and had to have appeared within George, or possibly Eva and Hideyoshi's grasp.

Actually, I haven't really heard too many concrete theories that try to trace the ring, from Kinzo's finger to it showing up in various episodes. I always assumed whoever was executing Kinzo's will had possession of it. Essentially, 'Beatrice.'

Right?

anybody who has the ring or a replica of it can make the letters.

It doesn't have to be Beatrice who writes it, but if it was I would think they would be prepared years in advance.