[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by passer_by

jjblue1, I am on the chapter 6 and still the biggest headache is the chapter 1.

It does look like Eva and Hideyoshi became lucky successors of the Ushiromiya family by chance (hahaha!). It does not explain the appearance of Shannon's “corpse”, though. If Hideyoshi lies about the corpse so do Kanon and Nanjo; which makes sense only if Eva and Hideyoshi teamed up with ALL FOUR remaining servants. I do not see a motive for servants to do it. Well… Honestly, I do not get motives of Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa in general except for the money (booooring) but Eva does not have any.

Okay, I'll give you hints through the episodes.
Ep 5. Natsuhi does what the man of 19 years ago asks... but did she know the identity of said guy?
Ep 3. In a way the adults play along with Beatrice's request by trying to solve the epitaph. Did they know who Beatrice was though?
Ep 6. We know everyone was an accomplice that ganged up against Erika. Did they do it to cover up a murder or they were believing it was something else?
Ep 5. The adults gang up against Natsuhi accusing her of George and Co's death but we know they weren't dead yet. Why?
Ep 2. The first 6 corpses were find in the chapel in front of a candy banquet while on the door there was something written. Is it possible the adults went there with the excuse to prepare a certain something?

Accomplices change from Ep to Ep and the motive switch according to who's involved.
Of course money can be one motive and in some cases it is. But if you study all the characters you'll realize the game gives you other motives as well.

And I really hope I hadn't made it too easy now...

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by haguruma

No, no, I wouldn't say that it necessarily has to connect to them simply pitying "Beatrice".
But think about it, what Beatrice's have there actually been? Not Meta-Beatrice but actual people with that name. We know that Kinzo is said to have met Beatrice during the 1940s, then there was the young Beatrice Rosa met in 1967 and died subsequently, and then there is the Beatrice that seems to kill everybody who Battler at least met during EP4 in 1986.
We also know that at least Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo have been at Kinzo's side for a long, long time, so their connection to Beatrice comes into question as well, doesn't it?

We also know that the core of all the games, the person around whom everything revolves is 19 years old, as confirmed by Zepar and Furfur in EP6. Ring a bell?

Haguruma, I guess I see the point you are guiding me to. Beatrice’s lineage is quite obvious (Kinzo you old pervert). Servants’ role in all of this is pretty much lying non-stop. Regardless, no matter what traumatic experience it could be for all of the people involved I do not see a reason for servants to cover up/participate in the murders and to die at the end (except for the money but again it’s soooo boring).
Any of this does not answer a question of how a family member except for Natsuhi and Krauss could make any of servants lying (e.g. about Sannon’s corpse in Ep.1).

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by passer_by

Haguruma, I guess I see the point you are guiding me to. Beatrice’s lineage is quite obvious (Kinzo you old pervert). Servants’ role in all of this is pretty much lying non-stop. Regardless, no matter what traumatic experience it could be for all of the people involved I do not see a reason for servants to cover up/participate in the murders and to die at the end (except for the money but again it’s soooo boring).
Any of this does not answer a question of how a family member except for Natsuhi and Krauss could make any of servants lying (e.g. about Sannon’s corpse in Ep.1).

In Ep 3 Kyrie theorized the one who calls herself Beatrice and that wrote them a letter was already in possession of the gold and that getting the gold would also mean getting the headship which would make 'Beatrice' more important than Natsuhi and Krauss.

And I already gave you hints about how people might believe they aren't covering up for a murder but for people playing dead under a heavy make up.

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Okay, I'll give you hints through the episodes.
...

And I really hope I hadn't made it too easy now...

Easy and Umineko ... Ha! A great oxymoron.

It was a theory of the guests not to be so unorganized as it seems at the first glance. It would solve so much if not everything. The problem is that it would require at least some servants to be in the gang and I see no motive for them or a way they could be recruited.

[GreyZone]

Do you remember that scene in EP2 where all the parents are "acknowledging" beatrice? Where they all say "I acknowledge it"?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Do you remember that scene in EP2 where all the parents are "acknowledging" beatrice? Where they all say "I acknowledge it"?

Supposing Shannon as Yasu really is Kinzo's secret child or something, why would Shannon keep it bottled up until 1986? One theory about Yasu is that she snapped because she really didn't know who she was anymore.

Isn't she bringing this upon herself?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Supposing Shannon as Yasu really is Kinzo's secret child or something, why would Shannon keep it bottled up until 1986? One theory about Yasu is that she snapped because she really didn't know who she was anymore.

Isn't she bringing this upon herself?

Theoretically Umineko explains it as having Shannon not interested in being the head. Another possibility is that Kinzo didn't really left her the title of family head but just a lot of money in a secret bank account.
After all he was supposed to return to her what he got from Beatrice which is the gold. Apart from maybe Rosa his other children had birth before he met her and he was family head before he met her so the title didn't really belong to her.
Or since Yasu now... had a body unable to love he might have decided it wasn't a good idea to pass the title also.
Alternatively Kinzo wanted to make Yasu the head... only he died before he could declare it to the family making Yasu's position very uncertain.

The family would likely not accept Yasu as the new head and, if Yasu were to try and get herself recognized legally, this would put a lot of people in an unpleasant position. Genji basically kidnapped him/her in collaboration with Nanjo and Kumasawa and they're also responsible for helping Kinzo in keeping hidden his mother and committing incest with her, not mentioning he also hid Beatrice Castiglioni. Plus the matter of the gold might get public.

So they probably told Yasu to accept... let's call it hush money and don't try to get the title, contrary to what Ep 7 seems to suggest as we know the conversation didn't quite went like that. Yasu though wanted to wait for Battler so she remained on the island.

Another interesting theory is that Yasu actually accepted the money, left and became Ikuko and when she discovered of the family troubles she tried to help them by sending money. However she was too late and the family searched for the gold. Rokkenjima exploded for matters unrelated to Yasu, and the press ended up mixing the identity of the servant who blew up with hers (maybe they were given the same blessed name?). Kanon obviously was another person, one Yasu had known and that in her mystery tales had fun as using as her 'other identity'.
Ironically in his escape from the island Battler ends up being found by her who hides him believing Eva is the culprit and might harm Battler as he might know something, while it's unlikely she'll harm Ange as she poses no threat.
Alternatively she hides him because she's afraid declaring she found him might lead people to discover she's living out of the Ushiromiya secret bank account.

In short her forgeries are the fartest thing from what had happened on the island and she didn't expect people to take them seriously. She'd merely tossed them away when she heard of the island's explosion believing now she would have no chance to have Battler reading them and she'd been surprised to find him close to her house short later.

Ergo, everything was a sad coincidence and she's completely innocent.


On a childish sidenote everyone could care less it seems the next volume of Requiem of the Golden Witch will figure on his cover Shannon and Battler. Cheers for my fave couple who finally have a color image of them together! (Twilight should have Dlanor and Will looking badass)

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In Ep 3 Kyrie theorized the one who calls herself Beatrice and that wrote them a letter was already in possession of the gold and that getting the gold would also mean getting the headship which would make 'Beatrice' more important than Natsuhi and Krauss.

And I already gave you hints about how people might believe they aren't covering up for a murder but for people playing dead under a heavy make up.

Yeah, gold-derived "Beatrice" complicates situation even more in regards to the loyalty of the servants but it hardly helps to solve the first twilight of the Ep.1.
I can admit that Battler is dense as golden ingots and he did not notice that during the first twilights of Ep.1 and Ep.2 a stench of blood should have been overwhelming and its absence would have been totally suspicious. Nonetheless, in the Ep.1 at least the following people are getting to corpses close enough to see if they are fake or not: Natsuhi, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, Battler, Kanon (we can disregard him), and may be Genji but his position is unclear. How could the former four team up in the same conspiracy? Who this conspiracy would be against?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by passer_by

Yeah, gold-derived "Beatrice" complicates situation even more in regards to the loyalty of the servants but it hardly helps to solve the first twilight of the Ep.1.
I can admit that Battler is dense as golden ingots and he did not notice that during the first twilights of Ep.1 and Ep.2 a stench of blood should have been overwhelming and its absence would have been totally suspicious. Nonetheless, in the Ep.1 at least the following people are getting to corpses close enough to see if they are fake or not: Natsuhi, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, Battler, Kanon (we can disregard him), and may be Genji but his position is unclear. How could the former four team up in the same conspiracy? Who this conspiracy would be against?

Nope, there likely was a strong stench of blood in the firt twilights of Ep 1 & 2 but if the accomplices were thinking the murders were fake ones they might have assumed the blood was... let's say animal blood used to cover dunny corpses or real people wearing make up. They can't hear the red so they don't know the guy in there are really dead and aren't even fake corpses. Both places aren't well light but what matter the most is that they might self delude themselves into believing they're dummy corpses or people playing dead.

If your classmates/workmates were to involve you in a mystery game in which some play the role of the dead ones when you see them on the ground covered in what you think is fake blood, apparently not breathing you might think 'oh what a realiztic make up and performance' at first because it'll be hard to think that while you were playing someone really went and killed them.

Of course if you were to check them well you'l probably realize they aren't faking it but at first you'll be fooled because that's what you want to believe. That they're just faking.

Also, not necessarily all the accomplices are in the same team.

Natsuhi in Ep 5 is an 'accomplice' (as she's doing what the man of 19 years ago told her) but the same can be said for the siblings, who're pretending everyone died to have her to confess and therefore aren't in her group. The cousins too are 'accomplices' as they're playing dead but they likely think it's just a prank, and not an act against Natsuhi.
The servants, which Natsuhi believes on her side as they should supposedly help her in hiding Kinzo's death, are likely instead working for Yasu, so they can be considered another team.


In addition to this each team was likely 'bribed' in a different way. Natsuhi was blackmailed and threatened, the servants were likely obeying their master and promised money, the siblings were likely persuaded in this way they could uncover Kinzo's death and therefore claim part of the inheritance while the cousins were in just because they thought to a game.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In short her forgeries are the fartest thing from what had happened on the island and she didn't expect people to take them seriously.

If true, What's the point of the forgeries? In other words, if someone new discovered Umineko and then learned of this hypothesis, what would be in it for them to play a 10+ hour long game?

(And that's more like 10+ hours per forgery.)

For Battler, sure, it's to discover Yasu but for us, is it merely to kill time?

[AuraTwilight]

It's the same thing for us at it is for Battler. They're crucial to the mystery we are being asked to solve, which is to understand the true nature of Beatrice and what motivates her to do what she does.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

If true, What's the point of the forgeries? In other words, if someone new discovered Umineko and then learned of this hypothesis, what would be in it for them to play a 10+ hour long game?

(And that's more like 10+ hours per forgery.)

For Battler, sure, it's to discover Yasu but for us, is it merely to kill time?

We're not supposed to know/focus on what happened to Prime, Ryukishi did that purposely in the dark, although he said we can make some guesses.
The purposes of the games are various:
- solve the mysteries Yasu/Tohya/Beatrice/Lambda/Battler/Bern created.
- understand the motive of the culprit
- understand the message Battler is trying to pass to Ange
- think over how the press and the public played with the Rokkenjima tragedy and made Ange's life a living hell even if there were no proofs Eva or Rudolf and Co did something and how they did it just for fun
- remember that if you make a promise to a supposedly female child and then don't keep it THERE CAN BE CONSEQUENCES you might not like...
- understand that people aren't just black or white. Rosa was a bad mother but she loved Maria... her own way
- understand that the press might not present the right portray of a person
- learn to think with our head and decide in what we want to believe
- have fun!
- other stuffs I don't remember right now

At least those were some of the messages/themes/point to ponder of Umineko.

Of course who wanted the solution to Prime can feel disappointed... still I'll say Umineko has something to say even if it's not what happened to Prime.

[Leafsnail]

- If you don't like someone then for god's sake just tell them. Adopting a new persona to love them or swapping their child with the stillborn offspring of your preferred partner will only lead to trouble.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

- If you don't like someone then for god's sake just tell them. Adopting a new persona to love them or swapping their child with the stillborn offspring of your preferred partner will only lead to trouble.

Also if you like someone then tell them! In the easiest way possible. And who cares if they've found a new love. They might still be hung up on you and merely faking or pretending they love someone else to make you jealous.

Also: phone is your friend! Letters are also! use them!

Another plus would be: if you don't trust a man to not abuse of his male child, when the baby get tossed of a cliff and his sex get swapped for some... technical problems, don't hide the child in an orphanage and then hire him when he's too young for working there, coddling him more than the other servants but not enough to make his life decent.

Teaparties aren't as nice as they might sound.

If someone encourages you to jump off a cliff... maybe she's not really a nice person...

If someone who calls herself a detective tries to get into your home... kick that person off the island. Not only it'll surely cause murders and if they don't happen she'll make them happen but she'll also might accuse you of being responsable for them.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I just thought of yet another interesting theory.

If the messaged bottles are forgeries, then Rokkenjima itself is also a forgery within Umineko.

After all, Kinzo was dead at the start of all games, Kanon's clearly non existent and Furudo Erika doesn't exist either. This implies that we can't trust the veracity of anything we see, forget Prime..

I'm saying we can't trust squat period

[Leafsnail]

You're correct, Rokkenjima is not a real island. None of the characters actually exist.

I think part of the point being made in episodes 5 and 6 was that "the absolute truth" can still be misleading, and even if you can't take them at face value the more metaphorical stuff carries more genuine meaning.

e: I've been rereading episode 1, and it now seems obvious to me that Shannon "died" at the first twilight so she wouldn't have to give an answer to George's engagement request. Eva and Hideyoshi would probably be willing to help with that plan. This theory is mainly within the "every death in Legend and Turn are fake" framework though.

I've been enjoying the reread, it's basically an entirely different story now that I know the answers. In retrospect a lot of things are obvious ("Jesus someone stop Battler from staring at those not-dead people, he'll notice!").

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Of course if you were to check them well you'l probably realize they aren't faking it but at first you'll be fooled because that's what you want to believe. That they're just faking.

Battler and Natsuhi are most likely targets of the "prank" and they take it as murders anyway. Hideyoshi is two steps away from the first corpse and the corpses are mutilated beyond any chance of imitation. Pictures of deformed jaws and missing flesh are quite convincing. This makes him a culprit in cahoots with Kanon (how on Earth was it possible??) or totally blind (but he “sees” Sannon’s corpse and the ring).
Nanjo is a problem. He must be involved into conspiracy at least with one group because they need his evaluation of the "bodies". But! Nanjo MUST know these are REAL dead bodies; he is a doctor after all. If he is a part of a team he should have started yelling right away that this is not a joke anymore. So, he must be a conspirator and he can't be at the same time. Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Do you remember that scene in EP2 where all the parents are "acknowledging" beatrice? Where they all say "I acknowledge it"?

Uh, because they ACCEPT someone as "Beatrice" of cause. The thing is it's most likely not Kinzo's Beatrice. I think so at least.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by passer_by

Regardless, no matter what traumatic experience it could be for all of the people involved I do not see a reason for servants to cover up/participate in the murders and to die at the end (except for the money but again it’s soooo boring).
Any of this does not answer a question of how a family member except for Natsuhi and Krauss could make any of servants lying (e.g. about Sannon’s corpse in Ep.1).

Maybe you should try thinking outside of the frame of what is in for them in terms of actual palpable gains. What kind of relationship do the servants have to "Beatrice" and to the people who are Beatrice if she is not pretending to be a witch.

Maybe the plan started as wanting to stage a fake murder mystery, but what further gains could drive people not to unveil anything, even if they assume "Beatrice" has started killing people.
Genji and Kumasawa are servants to the house for decades and at least Genji never seems to have been in it for the money. Kumasawa is often described as motherly.
And Nanjo, he had a very interesting line during EP3, "No, don't...I have a sick grandchild...".
Remember how the final sentences of the main game of EP2 said that, besides Kinzo and Maria getting their wish, Genji was granted to finally rest in peace?

Money is a powerful incentive, but I agree with you that it is unlikely to be the one and only way to convince a person. There must be more, but if you look through the story you might understand why people might feel an indebtedness that compels them to ply along even if their consciousness screams against it.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

You're correct, Rokkenjima is not a real island. None of the characters actually exist.

Not what I meant, I'll rephrase my blue.

Everything, and I mean literally everything happened in Yasu's head

Period, the existence of Rokkenjima, the murders. Whether there was even an Island at all. That was my theory.

Of course the game Umineko exists in IRL Fiction. But I'm saying that Umineko exists in 'Game Fiction' if that makes sense.

[AuraTwilight]

Then who is Yasu? Because she as a person only exists in the context of Rokkenjima and it's legacy. "Rokkenjima doesn't exist, it only exists in Yasu's head" is ontologically meaningless.