[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

True, but the end of EP6 makes it pretty clear that either Hachijo or Featherine is a fake. Either Featherine is a character created by Hachijo, or Hachijo is a piece created by Featherine. If the latter is true, then since Featherine acknowledges that she doesn't know the answer, and has probably only read the games we've seen so far, we can't blindly accept anything Hachijo says. Hachijo's theory is a very possible one though, and I don't think it makes sense for her to be entirely wrong. But in the end, I think it's closer to Battler's theories in the question arcs as far as how much we can trust it.

Oh, and the reason I think Hachijo is the fake one is because Featherine actually appears in later games and because the few times we see Hachijo are almost all obviously meta. That, and the fact that it doesn't make sense for someone to have written EP4's future scenes before Ange actually went to Rokkenjima.

Oh, I'm fully aware of that. But Ange makes it pretty clear that she read the Forgeries too, and they're on the internet for anyone to read. Hachijou can lie about authoring them, but she can't lie about what is in them. That's incredibly foolish. There is red ink in the texts, one way or another, which is a strong indication that Meta-World scenes may exist within the tales.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

That may be, but since you haven't shown any proof that your way is the right one, I don't think you can say that you're "more right" than I am. So, if my way can give us a resolution to certain issues, it doesn't make sense for you to call it "bad writing" just because your way can't resolve them.

Kindly observe that you have never bothered to pay the slightest bit of attention to anything I have ever said beyond the most superficial recognition that I said anything at all, so I'm pretty tired of your condescending zero sum game attitude. You can't discuss anything, you have to argue, and someone has to lose. And it always so happens that anyone who disagrees with you loses, because you pay no attention to anything that doesn't fit your own made-up idea of what everything has to be like. I don't know what you want me to do, since we're playing a game where anything I actually say never registers and half the evidence your argument relies on is made up. It's like I've got both hands tied behind my back... and we're playing handball.

Pay attention to the things people actually claim and stop keeping score.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

That may be, but since you haven't shown any proof that your way is the right one, I don't think you can say that you're "more right" than I am. So, if my way can give us a resolution to certain issues, it doesn't make sense for you to call it "bad writing" just because your way can't resolve them.

I don't think it's valid to say one theory is 'more right' or 'less right.' Any theory, even if it's able to consider more clues is an invalid theory if it doesn't take into account all the clues. Basically there's 'correct' and 'incorrect.' This is assuming Ryukishi kept strict control on the story and didn't create a logic error.


The thing is, the world of 1998 is presented in EP4 and appears to be a separate world existing on top of the meta-world. Without this world we would never have arrived at the Explosion Incident, since it was only when Ange visited the island did we find out a massive geological event took place.

If you strip away this world then the "Eaten by Wolves" theory is just as valid as the "Explosion" theory.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Oh, I'm fully aware of that. But Ange makes it pretty clear that she read the Forgeries too, and they're on the internet for anyone to read. Hachijou can lie about authoring them, but she can't lie about what is in them. That's incredibly foolish. There is red ink in the texts, one way or another, which is a strong indication that Meta-World scenes may exist within the tales.

Careful, that logic is glossing over some dangerous details. Yes, Featherine's copy of Ange has read forgeries with red text in Dawn's version of 1998. But can we really apply that information to a hypothetical "real" 1998?

In Alliance-1998, there's no mention of any specific forgeries, and you'd expect at least the Banquet forgery to come up at some point regarding Eva's guilt. There's never any hint that a meta-world is discussed in either message bottle either. Ange never meets with Tohya, and in fact there is no indication that Tohya exists in the first place.

Considering that Dawn-1998 Ange can remember what happened in Alliance-1998, there's some line of inspiration from one to the other. But why should we privilege the Dawn-1998 side as being a more reliable source of info when we have direct evidence of meta-tampering in that fragment? Considering that Featherine was planning to make Ange her reader for EP6, she had an obvious motive to falsify memories of the forgeries, both so that Ange would have that information available and to support her initial claims of being an author.

[Leafsnail]

I actually meant an assault, as in, someone attacked him. You can be a victim of any crime or natural event... it's a very vague word.

Of course, if the original Japanese means "murder victim", then...

[Kylon99]

I wanted to respond to a message from the EP6 thread that started talking about Yasu... but I didn't want to point it out there that that was spoilers... so... let me quote it here.

Originally Posted by Pikumin

About the Krauss gold bar thing, what if it was given to him by Yasu? In the second game when "Beatrice" approaches Rosa in the rose garden, she states that "It could have been any of the siblings" that she approached. Based on this, it can be assumed that Yasu tries to enlist the help of one of the siblings(and maybe the rest of the adults later) in each game, in order to help her carry out her plan.

I propose that in the first game, Yasu approached Krauss, and convinced him to play along by offering him the gold, giving him one ingot to prove that they exist.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

But he dies in the First Twilight. What did he help with?

Actually, I am starting to think Krauss was always recruited by Beatrice to act as the fake head of the family. And Natsuhi wasn't told. 8) I'm thinking this because he very easily defers to Genji in EP4 to come up with a plan about getting Kinzo to show up. It could be that Genji was really convincing, or that Krauss was already very compliant.

Pikumin: My theory is that the sibling that Beatrice recruits is considered the 'Key' in the Epitaph. You'll see that in at least EP1-3, one of the siblings, Natsuhi, Rosa and Eva stick very close to Battler, as the key is supposed to guide 'something' as described in the Epitaph. EP4 was supposed to be Kyrie, I think, although she couldn't stay close to him and tried to convince him that magic happened, instead. This is, until the 'Keys' start getting upset and abandon their jobs (like in EP 2 and 3.)

Aura is right.. Krauss ends up dying too much too early to really be too useful. Or rather, faking his death too much. (Notice the Key is not supposed to be sacrificed...)

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I actually meant an assault, as in, someone attacked him. You can be a victim of any crime or natural event... it's a very vague word.

Of course, if the original Japanese means "murder victim", then...

Yes, the original Japanese word 犠牲者 literally mean "sacrifice" (thanks to Used Can). And yes, literally this doesn't always refer to a "dead" sacrifice, but as Used Can pointed out, following the Umineko theme of sacrificed=murdered, we can assume that the word "victim" there really mean he's a murder victim.

Things could be more vague if the word used was 被害者 (a more literal word of victim), but since the word and its meaning is rather clear, we can no longer follow this way of thinking. I guess.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Didn't say it wasn't important, just said that it might be possible to sort out most of the game's details without it, and gave a reason why. And if it is possible to sort out most of the game's details without it, that's hardly a weak point for a theory.

After all, what if the meta-world represents a real inter-Kakera world like the opening of Minagoroshi? Or if it's the cat box of Beatrice's head right before she dies? Or, what if it's the way Battler thinks about the crime before telling Ange about it in the future? If any of these ways or countless others is true, then the nature of the meta-world might be very important to explain how the meta-story will end, but it would only have an occasional effect on how each game is played, and that mostly when dealing with the motives of meta-world characters.

In other words, try the theory, see if it works, and if it does, then we can search for an explanation of the meta-world itself.

I agree with you on this as well. I personally believe that the meta world is continuous from Higurashi, and that it is an inter-Kakera realm as you say. This story has given an example of what I imagine a real world 4th dimension would actually be like, something outside of time as well know it, and you would be able to 'view' all the different possiblities (or kakera) simultaneously.

I think this fits with what the story actually tells us, such as in EP6 where Ange says that another her will definitely visit Hachijo, even if 'she' never will again. Why are people so stuck on there only being one single 'real' outcome for 1998? Do people think Matsuribayashi-hen was the only real world in Higurashi?

[Pikumin]

Originally Posted by Pikumin

This is where things start to get complicated. My theory is that Yasu never intends for anyone to die, and she just wants people to fake their deaths. However, due to the bad blood between the siblings, and the enormous amount of money involved, the adults actually begin to kill people(and there may be other motives for them to kill each other too, you can speculate forever).

For example, for Krauss' death, I suspect that in the scene with the gold bar he is actually telling Natsuhi about Yasu's plan and how he wants her play along with it too. Proud, easily offended Natsuhi is disgusted with Krauss' lack of pride and his disloyalty to the Ushiromiya family name, they argue, things escalate, and Natsuhi ends up killing him(I'm guessing she shoots him in the face at the dining table, since blood is found there). I know that's a stretch, but we know that on the first night, they weren't getting on well(I also thought she was acting suspiciously calm during the scene when the bodies were found in the shed, and I don't think she is the kind of person who would act this way if anyone other than herself killed her husband).

Sorry I posted this in the EP6 thread, meant to post it in this one

Oh yeah and about the first twilight for EP1, I don't remember whether or not this has been answered yet, but have the bodies in the shed been confirmed to be dead yet? Cause I thought the significance in some of the faces being half smashed and some being completely smashed was that the people with completely-smashed faces were the ones who were playing dead(because I imagine it would be harder for someone to pretend to have half their face smashed off, since the people with completely-smashed faces could just be wearing masks or lots of make up or some other crap, and woudn't have to worry about their facial expressions showing).

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

I think this fits with what the story actually tells us, such as in EP6 where Ange says that another her will definitely visit Hachijo, even if 'she' never will again. Why are people so stuck on there only being one single 'real' outcome for 1998? Do people think Matsuribayashi-hen was the only real world in Higurashi?

Because Umineko is not Higurashi.

[Jan-Poo]

Random crazy question:

What if Beatrice2 was actually Nanjo's daughter?

According to what Nanjo reports, he and Beatrice Castiglioni had quite some time to be together alone and therefore to know each other. During that time Kinzo wasn't there since he had a lot of questions to answer and matters to settle.

Nanjo was as young as Kinzo (maybe even younger) at that time, and he also knew english.

[Leafsnail]

Would at least eliminate incest rapist Kinzo, I guess.

Although... Nanjo? Pfft. Maybe Genji.

[Jan-Poo]

But if it is Nanjo then the mention of Nanjo's grandchild makes sense.

It would be even possible that Nanjo's son adopted Yasu. We know that Genji immediately brought Yasu to Nanjo after the incident and then we have a long gap of 9 years where we aren't really sure where Yasu has been.

No fukuin servant seems to even remember her, so there's a fairly high chance that Yasu has never been to that orphanage.

[Leafsnail]

Well, anything that gives Nanjo a reason to exist has to be doing something right.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by Renall

Because Umineko is not Higurashi.

Yes, there's the possibility that they are completely unconnected. But there's also the possiblity that they are connected, and I prefer to think this way. I'm quite fond of the idea that they are linked through the same meta-universe, and it really makes me appreciate Bernkastel as very satisfyingly fleshed out character.

This is a speculation thread, I think many different views can flourish. There doesn't have to be only one single main theory around here. And there's really not much anyone can do to make me believe that Higuashi and Umineko are not connected. I'm just looking to discuss my views with the other people here that I'm sure share them with me.

[chronotrig]

@Renall:

Uh, if you actually read my posts, I was just asking you to try my theory and see if it works. To my knowledge, you haven't done so. And yet you're insulting me for not listening to your argument. When all I said was "you haven't proven it right, so you have to consider other arguments before saying 'the writing is bad'". Note the fact that I have not even said your theory is wrong, yet you bring up this thing about keeping score.

You are the one arguing. You are the one refusing to consider my theory. In nearly every post I've made, I've asked you to look it over. Clearly, you feel so much contempt for my point of view that you are unwilling to even consider it. And yet, you complain that someone else is ignoring your point of view...when my only point was that you shouldn't ignore mine unless you have proof that you're right.

In other words, you're doing the thing you accuse me of doing, and I'm not actually doing it myself.

[Renall]

You're not worth it, chronotrig.

To be topical, @Keriaku: I believe the evidence is more in favor of a tenuous connection than of any direct connection. There are aspects of the witches' stories that don't seem to fully jive with Higurashi as backstory, for instance. Yet the relationships are certainly there, it's true.

[AuraTwilight]

Isn't Nanjo's granddaughter supposed to be sick?

Yes, there's the possibility that they are completely unconnected. But there's also the possiblity that they are connected, and I prefer to think this way. I'm quite fond of the idea that they are linked through the same meta-universe, and it really makes me appreciate Bernkastel as very satisfyingly fleshed out character.

No one's denying that they're connected, but they're not the same story and we can't expect them to follow the same rules; for instance, Higurashi exists as a novel in Battler's universe.

This is a speculation thread, I think many different views can flourish. There doesn't have to be only one single main theory around here. And there's really not much anyone can do to make me believe that Higuashi and Umineko are not connected. I'm just looking to discuss my views with the other people here that I'm sure share them with me.

No one is saying they're not connected; you're getting ahead of yourself.

@Chronotrig

Nice mindreading you did there. Calm down and don't get so personally vested, it's embarassing.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Pikumin

Sorry I posted this in the EP6 thread, meant to post it in this one

If you missed it, I responded to your earlier post here.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=18427

Things seem to be moving pretty fast in this thread though.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

I'm quite fond of the idea that they are linked through the same meta-universe, and it really makes me appreciate Bernkastel as very satisfyingly fleshed out character.

Even if the meta universe was not directly connected though Bernkastel could equally have been fleshed out in the same way with how Umineko was written. Because the Bernkastel character in Higurashi had no personality really. It was a blank slate and any character could have come from it.

I pet theory of mine has been that there are an infinite amount incarnations of Rikas and Bernkastels in separate Whentheycry universes. That allow for completely new stories to exist, but don't connect except through inference. I think that allows for a bit more creativity than canonicity allows.

Even I want there to be some kind of connection. I read Higurashi's Sound novel at about the same time I read Umineko and to be honest a direct canon connection would ruin Umineko's characters for me. Because they're just very different. I like the characters in Higurashi much more than in Umineko despite Higurashi's plot. But I think that has more to do with there being so many characters in Umineko and less for how Ryukishi wrote them.