SDF Macross Re-Watch 2011

[Pterobat]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Really...I was going to say that this episode had some of the BEST animation in the whole series. Compared to clunkers like, as you say, "Virgin Road," this episode had a wonderful look from start to finish. For me, the NEXT episode is where the cracks start to show.

Huh. Well, you see what you see. Probably this means the next episode will look even worse to me, though :P

Originally Posted by Bri

It's subjective but in terms of animation quality I feel it matters which version to watch. If I see the ADV version with it's subdued colors and accented lines and contrast get to me and makes the whole feel more dated. However the Bandai remaster with it's more vivid colors and softer lines manages just makes the whole a more enjoyable experience for me.

I hear that: if it were up to me I would own the Bandai version subtitled above all else, but the official R1 DVDs were close at hand, so that's what I'm using. The Bandai version does look wonderful, as I said.

Originally Posted by BChoinski

That's a good point. Roy comments as to "that's why we have the valkyries, to fight these giants".

So, they had to have hints of this in the Macross (huge doors, lockers with big space suits, mammoth urinals, whatever). Yet given 10 years of work on the ship, by thousands of people of all disciplines (steelworker to computer tech and everything between), info and rumors and didn't slip out? Talk about tight information security. We have leaky projects nowdays, and they are usually dealing with fewer people and a lot less visible subject (much less the biggest change to man's mind set -- there are aliens out there! -- having a huge, obvious presence).

Actually, my main point was that the entire narrative arc of the Zentradi has a lot more resonance when they are essentially human. It removes a certain gap common to other science fiction stories of this type, so that the Zentradi are easier to empathize with and their change "sticks" because they stay with humanity, yet retain some unique aspects, too.

[BChoinski]

Originally Posted by Pterobat

Actually, my main point was that the entire narrative arc of the Zentradi has a lot more resonance when they are essentially human. It removes a certain gap common to other science fiction stories of this type, so that the Zentradi are easier to empathize with and their change "sticks" because they stay with humanity, yet retain some unique aspects, too.

One can empathize with them, if only because (then than some odd skin colors), when micronized they can pretty much be anyone in the crowd. There is no indication of their true scale in the first episode, so it's only with the end of episode 2 that the first "gotcha" hits. If they had been human sized, just with a huge fleet I think a lot of the potential of this change would have been lost (as well as some of the humor and stuff you can do with the scale differences).

The change from "enemy" to "just like us, only different" is a lot more obvious. If it was a fleet of misguided humans being converted that would be impressive, but a fleet of gods/giants being converted, when they have not only tech/firepower advantages but physical "man-to-man" advantages just kicks it up a knotch.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BChoinski

One can empathize with them, if only because (then than some odd skin colors), when micronized they can pretty much be anyone in the crowd. There is no indication of their true scale in the first episode, so it's only with the end of episode 2 that the first "gotcha" hits. If they had been human sized, just with a huge fleet I think a lot of the potential of this change would have been lost (as well as some of the humor and stuff you can do with the scale differences).

I think Kawamori got us pretty good when the Zentradi was revealed for the first time. Suffice to say, Kawamori trolls good... very very good.

When the cockpit of that regult first opened, I bet most people, including myself, expected to see something hideous and alien. Except what came out was both familiar and alien at the same time. I had the same look as Hikaru's face, which pretty much said what da faaack?

- Tak

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Tak

I think Kawamori got us pretty good when the Zentradi was revealed for the first time. Suffice to say, Kawamori trolls good... very very good.

When the cockpit of that regult first opened, I bet most people, including myself, expected to see something hideous and alien. Except what came out was both familiar and alien at the same time. I had the same look as Hikaru's face, which pretty much said what da faaack?

- Tak

Yes, yes. That is so true. I at first thought it'd be a while until we learned about the aliens like that but it was right from the get go. But then again, the Brass knew about it so it wasn't like a secret that would blow everyone away when they found out.

[Yot-chan]

Kawamori's Commentary

Spoiler for Minor spoilers for the series:

The focus here is on the meeting between Hikaru and Minmay. Minmay is just a girl, but her sensitivities are definitely not usual.

[BChoinski]

Ok, less nits picked on inconsistent animation -- it's going to be with us for 33 more episodes, so no need to get boring.

1) "Old Lady" much better than "Old Sourpuss" (RT). No idea why they felt they had to change it since it subtly changes the initial relations between Misa and Hikaru.

...and at least Misa gets a dig back at Roy.

3) Ok, one nit...when they were being fired on it looked like a fleet of Daedalus's. Gah. And was that ARMD-III out there?

4) Way to open the hanger door without seeing where you are, dumbass. They saw they were in low earth orbit when Roy flew them in, so by all rights he should have expected to be sucked out.

5) Wow, Minmei is on the ball here ("Are we in space?"). She's already a few points up over RT Minmei.

6) This episode posits an interesting difference. Despite seeing Valks doing maneuvers like aircraft in deep space, Hikaru has to do what you would normally have to do (i.e. spin and retro thrust to move and stop), like they had to do in Babylon 5. Granted, it would not have been as cool if all ships on the show had to do this in space, but perhaps this is the difference between pure earth tech and overtechnology.

6a) However, how is he spinning? The booster is only on the back; I don't see vernier jets like on the shuttle.

[Pterobat]

I have to say that I'm really not feeling this episode. A lot of things are happening, including Hikaru growing close to Misa and Minmay in very different ways, and the beginning of the long journey back home from around Pluto, but there's some kind of spark that's missing here.

A persistent theme in the episode is Hikaru's desire to protect Minmay: from the sight of the not-quite-dead Zentradi soldier, and from the knowledge that the oxygen is running out. It may be meant to suggest that the two are not meant to be, if Hikaru cannot be honest with her. Furthermore, it dovetails nicely with Hikaru's later displays of more overt sexism. One hopes that his eventual choice of Misa is partly because of the equality level that comes into play.

The artwork and animation in this episode is indeed worse than the previous, with limited movement, vacant facial expressions, and misaligned eyes. On a different artistic note, I've noticed again that the music in Super Dimension Fortress Macross is relatively subdued, with no very intense or blasting cues. It makes for an interesting change of pace, actually.

The sequence where many of the characters have a laugh at Misa's expense is pretty funny, though part of me cringes at the suggestion that being an older woman is inherently hilarious, especially since Misa is nineteen, f'godssakes.

I like that part of Britiai's motivation for not destroying the ship outright is that “it interests me.” It's a nice bit of characterization that demonstrates the Zentradi are capable of curiosity and being driven by individual desires, which will be extremely important later.

The list of things going wrong for the Fortress crew keeps growing, and at the moment it feels more darkly funny than anything else.

And now the main character is stuck in the bowels of the Fortress. It's a different way for things to proceed, and we'll soon get some good characterization out of the deal.

[DragoZERO]

Ah... the space fold that started it all. Really ingenious, from a writer's point of view, if you ask me.

The old lady bit really was funny though. Even Global was laughing! It's her hairstyle and strictness that makes her seem old. And man... she could discipline me anytime (couldn't help myself, sorry).

Physics had no place back then, huh?

I kind of wish they would re-do this series, but only the animation. And be faithful, as in don't make Minmay's skirt super short, lol. At the very least, a re-master would be nice.

With regards to the translation, Minmay's name is left in it's Eastern name order for some strange reason, lol.

I might start my Battlestar Galactica comparisons soon.

[Pterobat]

Actually, in all seriousness I've been completely baffled by the notion that Misa comes off in any way as standoffish, repressed, cold, bitchy, or inflexible. There's just a cool elegance to her, and anything that she gives Hikaru, he totally deserved.

[raile]

Well...considering Misa's...cinnamon buns for hair...I thought she looked old for her age.

[Pterobat]

Originally Posted by raile

Well...considering Misa's...cinnamon buns for hair...I thought she looked old for her age.

Well, her hair doesn't come to mind as a reason why someone would have that impression of her...I just thought it was a weird anime style 'do.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Pterobat

Well, her hair doesn't come to mind as a reason why someone would have that impression of her...I just thought it was a weird anime style 'do.

I think he hair makes her look old too. None of the other girls in the series has hair like that.

[Pterobat]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I think he hair makes her look old too. None of the other girls in the series has hair like that.

Huh. Well, it's still a real head-scratcher to me. I just thought it was unique. Maybe a little silly, though...

[DragoZERO]

Lynn Minmay. The name that will go down in anime history. One interesting note is that here name was not reversed like everyone else's.

So, Hikaru loses two points here. One for the tuna and another for waiting until the very last moment to get a kiss in.

Seriously though, great episode. A lot of character focus and this episode really make me (and I think everyone else in the world) think that Minmay would be the ending girl. She did get a little scary at the end, I have to say. I suppose she would have made a good yandere towards the end, haha.

[sa547]

That tuna head. I'll never forget that moment when they tried to cook the head after losing the rest of the body.

[BChoinski]

1) Starting to get a bit of empathy to all the Macek hate...Minmei here is certainly full of energy, but she seems to have some realization of things around her, especially regarding Hikaru, in the original. RT made her a complete bubblehead at this stage. :P

2) Holding your breath IN SPACE is much different than underwater! In fact, if you hit vacuum you need to exhale everything or you'll pop! Granted, what he is wearing looks like a G-suit suitable for acrobatics so you don't black out, so it's probably a more rigid cover than his clothing, but still, that's 14.7 #/square inch that wants to exit through his mouth. I sort of wish they had thought this out a little better. Planetetes (sp?) was good on this. They knew this crap in the 80's, they should have thought it through and found something. Hell, given an airlock, one would think they might have emergency space suits nearby. Simply have it so that only one was available, you have the tear, and you have the same panic situation (get back aboard before being pulled out through the hole or losing all your air!) with out the stupid "in space in a flight suit and holding my breath". Bah.

3) Meet the god of tuna...not many that get to "great white" size...

4) Gah, more stupidity. Again, I with they had thought this out instead of going with the stupid scarf plan. :P At least they considered the action/reaction requirements of moving in zero-G.

5) Branding gone mad...I'm pretty sure they would not have branded EVERYTHING, down to the sugar packets, with "SDF-1". If we ever have a moon base, I'm pretty sure it will be domino sugar or something.

6) Holy crap! From domestic to suicide! I guess it beats being rat food, but you can last WEEKS without food, though it would suck. And at the very least you can eat rats. Hikaru has the right idea -- there is awlays hope whil ethere is life. Minemei shows her "pampered" side here.

Summary:
12 days of getting to know the girl...what else to do (platonicly) except talk. I would think that he should have a good idea of what she is like by now.

At this point, I see absolutely no vibes towards Misa as being anything other than just another bridge member. It looks to be entirely a show focused on the lives of Hikaru and Minmei, caught up in a war. Were they seriously thinking of a triangle at this point, or were the characters and interactions evolving based on fan reactions, life with Frontier?

[DragoZERO]

I was impressed with how they thought about moving in space like that. I was wondering why is he carrying those, lol.

I am curious if the love triangle was thought of at this point too... Yot-chaaaan...

[BChoinski]

1) In terms of Logistics, they certainly should have the supplies required, if they scavenge the town. Figure 10-30% population loss in the attack and possible shelter loss, the food supplies from the shelters, city and military are probably good for at least a couple months. Even so, that's still a pretty tight limit; One thing that is not shown but likely to exist at this point is large, hastily constructed hydroponics areas somewhere. Food animals are likely nearly non-existant (other than any few brought into shelters). How long was this trip back to Earth estimated to take?

2) So cool for the 80's...a reason WHY they have to go from spaceship form to humanoid form. Obviously it worked out as a good idea (in story), hence Macross-class designs in the future retaining this, but for anime in the "bronze age" of technique and story-line that we got to see in America, this is a nicely plotted and adult means of justification, other than the usual "rule of cool".

3) Gloval for president! Hinted at here, and strengthened over the whole series. If you didn't think he was content to be a ship commander, he could have been a "George Washington" post-series. He's not the physical equal of a "Captain Kirk", but given how he treats his crew and the civilians under his protection, I'm sure there are multitudes of people under his command that would take a bullet for him.

4) Side note to Macross Zero...I know it's a decade beforehand, but taking in the Roy Focker of the past 5 episodes they really should have tried harder to get the M0 version more like the SDFM version. :P

5) Folding technology must be damn accurate at this point. Considering how normal folds seem to cover lots of lightyears (any notes in source books as to a LY/day or LY/hour rate for Zhentradi ships), a quick hop to pluto orbit must be like quickly flicking a switch up and down in order that you don't overshoot.

6) What do you have to do to get into the black valk squadron instead of those lame brown ones?

7) Another good note about the "fog of war". Bretai is reasonably curious as to why the Macross has not opened fire, given how it sniped his ships before. Handled well here, unlike the 70's show "Hawaii 5-0" where McGarret always seemed like he was reading ahead in the script and always knowing everything. This points to the creators making more than just a "kid's show".

8) One complaint that rises here, and carries forward, is one of numbers. We have about a few hundred human pilots against thousands to millions of zhentradi. The main characters have their "hero armor", but the rest of the nameless beige pilots do not. Is the human Valk design that good, or do the Zhentradi just suck that bad?

9) Gloval pissed off face sighted -- bridge crew cowers in shock and fear!

10) Damn, they don't spare the casualties on a transform (granted, it's the first one). Likely they engineered "clear zones" for future needs so people would not stick building in the way, but this one was pretty rugged on the civilians.

Summary:
I watched Macross 7 at a very fast pace, and the plot similarities in each episode (Main character acts like a dick, they have a concert, he flies out during enemy attack, scares them away with song) at that rate were killing me. I could easily keep watching SDFM and not have the same problem (other than "Phantasm" :P), and it's killing me to have to wait until next week. And that doesn't even count "Wet Haired Misa", which turned her for me.

[BChoinski]

Ep 3:

Originally Posted by Pterobat

I have to say that I'm really not feeling this episode. A lot of things are happening, including Hikaru growing close to Misa and Minmay in very different ways, and the beginning of the long journey back home from around Pluto, but there's some kind of spark that's missing here.

I saw absolutely NO spark between Misa and Hikaru at this point (other than each thinking the other was a jerk)...what scenes make you think this?

[Thess]

I don't know, it's a typical quarreling relationship.