Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[aldw]

Which is the fundamental problem with Kiritsugu's ideal. You can't care equally about every person in the world, the human mind is simply not capable of doing it, and so in attempting to treat everyone equally he ends up caring about no-one.

One of my original story ideas covered this issue by coincidence, thing is that either human consciousness/organization changes to deal with it or a major systemic transformation of sorts (e.g., post-singularity, Third Impact etc.,) occurs for something like that to happen. But it would take too long to get into hard details so that'll be for another time and thread.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, exactly. Rin simply decided "I can't save Sakura" and then elected not to bother thinking about it any further, even though her heart was keeping her from actually doing it. But, really, her general attitude towards Sakura is like that. She seems to take the approach that, if she doesn't know there is a problem, she doesn't have to deal with it. I mean, she knows full well that Sakura isn't happy, she knows that Shinji is hitting her and she can see that Sakura's personality, hair and eye colour has changed massively. If she bothered to actually think about it for a second, she would see that something was horribly wrong, and yet she doesn't. She just pretends that Sakura is happy because it makes her feel good about herself.

Actually, aside from when Rin spoke to Shinji in one of the earlier routes (I can't remember, was it Fate or UBW?) she didn't seem to be aware of the fact that Shinji's abuse of Sakura runs deeper when she isn't around. And besides, even if she was aware of it, what was she supposed to do? Her father made a promise that the Matou and Tohsaka families wouldn't have anything to do with each other. Rin's not the type to go against that kind of promise, especially because it's her father. Sure, you could say "He was dead, she could have done it anyway", but Rin isn't the kind of person to do that unless she had a damned good reason for it, and as far as we were shown in the game she had no reason to really suspect just how bad off Sakura was until the Holy Grail War began and Zouken made his move.

Really, though, the whole conflict of "Rin killing Sakura" exists solely for the purpose of showing Rin's inner contradiction. She tries to be a good, strong magus by adopting a cold face and doing what duty demands of her regardless of her own feelings, but she can't because deep down she's just way too nice and loves Sakura too much. And really, barring all of the Bad Ends, Rin just really sucks at actually killing Sakura when she has the chance in-game.

Spoiler for MoS:

And even if she had killed Sakura, at least in the Mind of Steel ending it was implied that her wish for the Grail would have changed and she would have gone mad trying to claim it, so even when she did the "right" thing and killed her sister, it still would have broken her completely.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Actually, aside from when Rin spoke to Shinji in one of the earlier routes (I can't remember, was it Fate or UBW?) she didn't seem to be aware of the fact that Shinji's abuse of Sakura runs deeper when she isn't around.

She's clearly not aware of it, no. But, given how smart she is, she should be. There is enough evidence there for her to work it out, especially given her general level of knowledge of magecraft and how magi think. So, the only obvious conclusion is that she didn't try to find out. She watched Sakura from a distance and pretended to herself that everything was just fine, even though she knew that Sakura was only ever happy around Shirou (she says as much in HF), which really should have set massive alarm bells ringing in her mind (particularly in UBW...).

And besides, even if she was aware of it, what was she supposed to do? Her father made a promise that the Matou and Tohsaka families wouldn't have anything to do with each other. Rin's not the type to go against that kind of promise, especially because it's her father. Sure, you could say "He was dead, she could have done it anyway", but Rin isn't the kind of person to do that unless she had a damned good reason for it, and as far as we were shown in the game she had no reason to really suspect just how bad off Sakura was until the Holy Grail War began and Zouken made his move.

Which is the part of her personality that really pisses me off, and like the cause of her not investigating it too deeply. If she attempts to look under the surface, she might come to the conclusion that she doesn't have a choice but to act, even if there is nothing she can do. She didn't look too deeply at Sakura's situation or think too hard about it because she was frightened about what she might find.

Really, though, the whole conflict of "Rin killing Sakura" exists solely for the purpose of showing Rin's inner contradiction. She tries to be a good, strong magus by adopting a cold face and doing what duty demands of her regardless of her own feelings, but she can't because deep down she's just way too nice and loves Sakura too much. And really, barring all of the Bad Ends, Rin just really sucks at actually killing Sakura when she has the chance in-game.

Which is pretty much our point. Her brain is telling her that she must do her duty, but her heart won't let her. As a result, she never actually goes through with killing Sakura, but at the same time every time she actually tries to think about the situation and look for a way out all she gets is plans for how to kill Sakura with the minimum of fuss. Thus, she doesn't do what she should have done, and start researching Zouken and his magecraft in order to find a way to actually help Sakura.

Spoiler for MoS:

And even if she had killed Sakura, at least in the Mind of Steel ending it was implied that her wish for the Grail would have changed and she would have gone mad trying to claim it, so even when she did the "right" thing and killed her sister, it still would have broken her completely.

Yes, because it means that she has given in totally to her "duty", and as a Tohsaka her "duty" is to win the Grail War no matter what. Once she kills Sakura, she has to then claim the Grail, or everything she's sacrificed over the course of her life (including her own beloved sister, who was in desperate need of love and protection and whose entire life was destroyed by the Tohsaka family's dedication to magecraft and its rules) will be in vain and she'll just break down totally. Most likely she still has no actual wish to make with the Grail (she seems not to be aware of the original purpose of it), she just knows that she 'has' to win it, because it's her "duty".

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

She's clearly not aware of it, no. But, given how smart she is, she should be. There is enough evidence there for her to work it out, especially given her general level of knowledge of magecraft and how magi think. So, the only obvious conclusion is that she didn't try to find out. She watched Sakura from a distance and pretended to herself that everything was just fine, even though she knew that Sakura was only ever happy around Shirou (she says as much in HF), which really should have set massive alarm bells ringing in her mind (particularly in UBW...).

Well, here we go into a debate neither of us will win because I adore Rin. But, well, I wanted to respond to this one point, at least, before I let this go, because neither of us is really going to win this.

Yes, Rin should be aware of Sakura's condition. I admit that she has no reason to not be aware of it, especially considering Sakura's massive physical change compared to when they were children. If anything, I'd say she used a censor (kind of like how the students in UBW pretend to not see Rin going nuts on Shirou) so she wouldn't think about it, because if she did think about it and figured it out, there was still nothing she could do. She still had the promise to abide by, and she had no reason (other than personal) to go after Zouken, which wouldn't have gone over well with her "moderator of Fuyuki" duties since she's only supposed to do something when the whole city is in danger, as it was in HF.

But again, it comes down to personal opinion. I think she couldn't have done anything about it, you don't, so we're going to go in circles here. I toss my hat into the ring, good evening to you.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Yes, Rin should be aware of Sakura's condition. I admit that she has no reason to not be aware of it, especially considering Sakura's massive physical change compared to when they were children. If anything, I'd say she used a censor (kind of like how the students in UBW pretend to not see Rin going nuts on Shirou) so she wouldn't think about it

I can agree with this bit, yeah. She clearly 'blocked' it out, because she didn't want to know, because she would then feel guilty for not helping her sister.

because if she did think about it and figured it out, there was still nothing she could do. She still had the promise to abide by, and she had no reason (other than personal) to go after Zouken, which wouldn't have gone over well with her "moderator of Fuyuki" duties since she's only supposed to do something when the whole city is in danger, as it was in HF.

Sorry, but "I have promised not to get involved with the Matou family" is not an excuse for leaving her little sister to be tortured and, likely, eventually murdered by her adoptive grandfather. Even she admits as much, in HF. As for the Association, they likely couldn't give a shit, provided she doesn't break any of their rules in doing so.

It's quite possible that she did think this way, because she was so wedded to her duty that she may well consider herself to be "not allowed" to save Sakura, but it is in no way an excuse for not doing so. She may well have felt that her duty didn't allow her to save Sakura, but to claim that she couldn't save Sakura is complete bullshit. Although, admittedly, it may well have been somewhat difficult for her to overcome Zouken (which is another argument entirely).

So, whilst I can accept that she may have thought that she couldn't save Sakura, and that she likely subconsciously overlooked what she should have been able to work out Sakura's true situation, she did it because she didn't want to have to make the choice between her duty as a magus and her love of her sister. But that was her decision, and she made it for her benefit. She did not have to follow her father's instructions, she chose to follow them, so to claim that she "couldn't" save Sakura (for that reason, anyway) is ridiculous. Wouldn't, perhaps, but not "couldn't". She just didn't want to have to live with the guilt of knowing that she had put her 'duty' and her own well-being above the well-being of her sister, so she blocked out anything that might tell her that Sakura was not OK, in order that she could live in blissful ignorance.

[Flinch]

And that is what separates people; those who will break under pressure and those who will become diamonds. By holding fast to your duties, no matter how hard it is on you physically or emotionally, you show higher resolve and strength than acting on your emotions.

The vast majority of questions people ask, they already know the answer to, which is why many simply don't ask because they don't want it confirmed. The same would go with that situation. If Sakura changed because of living with the Makiri family, logic states that it has something to do with her living there. If she appears to be in a great deal of emotional pain, its still probably from where she is. Now, knowing this, do you think Rin would rather confirm this first hand and be traumatized, or not ask questions out of fear and self-hatred for not being able to change it?
Mind you, I have absolutely no appreciation for family values/concepts do to personal experiences, so my views are going to be heavily biased on that reason.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Mind you, I have absolutely no appreciation for family values/concepts do to personal experiences, so my views are going to be heavily biased on that reason.

Ah, I see. Your past comments do reflect that mindset so I can better understand where your head is at when you respond to some earlier comments. Thank you for being honest though. Though there is amusing irony when we turn the situation to Ilya of course, but I won't press the issue.

EDIT: Really now...*sigh*

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Flinch

And that is what separates people; those who will break under pressure and those who will become diamonds.

Perhaps, but Rin is defintely not the second. In any case, whether breaking under pressure is a good or bad thing depends on the kind of pressure. Being rigidly inflexible when someone puts a good argument to you is no better than buckling at the slightest hint of opposition.

By holding fast to your duties, no matter how hard it is on you physically or emotionally, you show higher resolve and strength than acting on your emotions.

Not when your "duty" is stupid and involves putting yourself first to achieve some pointless goal. Whilst I could accept an argument for killing Sakura in MoS, there is no good argument for Rin not trying to find out the truth about Sakura and assist her. Being a genuinely kind and good person comes way above some stupid duty to follow in your father's footsteps or stick to some horribly out of date non-interference pact that you've already made a total mockery of by giving your daugther to the other side (which Rin admits in HF).

The vast majority of questions people ask, they already know the answer to, which is why many simply don't ask because they don't want it confirmed. The same would go with that situation. If Sakura changed because of living with the Makiri family, logic states that it has something to do with her living there. If she appears to be in a great deal of emotional pain, its still probably from where she is.

Yes, but by not asking she's condemned an innocent girl (and her sister, at that) to a slow and agonising death.

Now, knowing this, do you think Rin would rather confirm this first hand and be traumatized, or not ask questions out of fear and self-hatred for not being able to change it?

Of course. But, this is a weakness in Rin, not a strength. Whilst it's understandable that she acts that way, it is not good that she does. Her refusal to ask has consequences for Sakura, and it's unfair for her to put her own fear of discovering the truth above her sister's well-being.

Mind you, I have absolutely no appreciation for family values/concepts do to personal experiences, so my views are going to be heavily biased on that reason.

And what about the concept of helping another human being? Do you not have that?

[Haak]

Lol. Brainwashed Issei sure is a creepy fuck...

[Altima of the Gates]

What was funny was that it was supposed to Caster's voice coming from him, but it only uses the voiceover for Issei's voice actor.

[Haak]

Lol. Shinji gets Gilgemesh. Wonder how long that'll last...

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Haak

Lol. Brainwashed Issei sure is a creepy fuck...

The eyes he got when Caster took over creeped me the hell out. Those eyes... those eyes!

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

And what about the concept of helping another human being? Do you not have that?

Without a good level of camaraderie with them, I frankly couldn't care less what happens to someone.

When your world is turned upside down, many people are afraid, but when the sky and ground are also ripped away from you, what do you do? I lost faith in almost everything, save camaraderie and the one thing humans are good at, war.



And, to stay on topic, I will agree that Issei sounded creepy as hell. To be honest, he should've been a bigger character, as should've Ayako. They were both the main character's best friends.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Flinch

And, to stay on topic, I will agree that Issei sounded creepy as hell. To be honest, he should've been a bigger character, as should've Ayako. They were both the main character's best friends.

Honestly, if I hadn't been spoiled for the game before I played, I have to admit I would have expected Ayako to have her own route. For a character who mainly served to talk to Shirou and Rin and explain certain things that were happening, she seemed to have a large presence. It's really a shame she didn't have her own route, though I can understand why since she's largely a normal girl who isn't involved in the War.

[Flinch]

An Ayako path could've taken a nasty turn if Rin found out... or it would be unbelievably hilarious having to watch Rin do whatever Ayako says for a day.

[Moczo]

Slowly but steadily progressing through UBW again. Got to the next set of new images, so...

Spoiler for More fun with UBW!:

I forgot how silly the early parts of this route are. Saber is a lot snarkier than I remember, and I'm getting her 'disdainful' look a lot. And of course, people re-writing their memories to forget about Rin freaking out, the Tsunderism turned up to its highest magnitude, and of course Rin and Archer's interactions are always fun to watch. Those two should have a comedy routine. It's weird, but I didn't really care for Archer the first time I did this route, but I'm kinda digging him now. Not sure why, but can't say I mind.

Not that I'm helping things. I made the choice to let Fuji-nee cook Saber dinner, and I don't even feel guilty for it. (Speaking of, there's more Fuji-nee in this route than I remembered. That's good. I would have liked her to get her own route, just so I could hang out with her through a whole storyline. She's awesome).

As for the latest two CG's they're a pair of images of Kuzuki's 'snake' beating the tar out of Saber. One of her taking a hit to the back of her head, and one of him holding her up by her neck. The second looks particularly cool; the whole thing is done in shades of red, and they're in silhouette so you can just barely see the look of pain on Saber's face. It's honestly kinda creepy.

Not bad; an improvement over Fate so far, certainly. And just looking through the gallery, I'm very hopeful: the game adds 'non-displayed picture' squares into the galleries, and right now I'm seeing empty spaces in close proximity to the Shirou/Archer and Shirou/Gilgamesh duels. A fully illustrated Unlimited Blade Works vs. Gate of Babylon would just about make my life.

[Haak]

I think I forgot to mention this before but whilst I did say that the Fate route was better than the anime, I’d still say the Fate route is pretty damn average. I mean really, I found pretty much everything except the last arc almost completely pointless, and whilst the last arc did have its moments, overall it wasn’t particularly groundbreaking. The only explanations for the other arcs are to slowly reveal more about Saber and develop her relationship with Shirou. That’s not a bad thing they should’ve made the actual plots more complicated, connect with each other and into plot of the last arc. Otherwise, they’re wasting a perfectly good plot. The connections from one arc to another just seem far too superficial to me.

But another thing that might surprise you is that I don’t particularly like this whole ‘Summon a Heroic spirit and do battle with others’. It just kinda reminds me too much of those really bad mon series that I used to watch when I was kid. The RPG-like battle stats and Class system certainly don’t help. Nor the fact that they all dress like RPG characters. That’s certainly gonna limit my enjoyment of this story but there’s still the problem of these comedy moments in-between dark and life-threatening moments. They’re certainly funny and it’s an eroge VN so they obviously have to be there, but it’s just not what I’m looking for, so I get tempted to just skip them. Plus I never really could get my head round the idea of King Arthur being a young girl. No matter how good the Watsonian answer may be, the Doylist answer is all too apparent and it pisses me off. It’s the same for those hilariously poorly-drawn sex scenes.

Well anyway, I finally finished Unlimited Blade Works.

Spoiler for Wall of Text:

Didn’t realise the first part of the anime was actually this the first part in this arc so that was a nice surprise. Then again I never really liked this bit that much since I find it annoying how Rider couldn’t just slice him in half a second. Well there’s that and Shirou’s refusal to summon Saber. Well here it’s kinda justified as being the wrong choice since Rider expected it. But I would’ve liked Shirou to actually come to that conclusion. Well it was also meant to show how disturbingly little Shirou cares about himself, but I’d rather it be illustrated during battles in ways that didn’t make him look like a complete moron (Like when he tries to save Ilya). Ayako’s analysis and the end of Day Eight were pretty good aswell.

Then Archer tries to kills Shirou. What a twist! But errrrr...shouldn’t Shirou care about that a bit more? Saber kinda points it out but then she quickly drops it and even seems to approve. She doesn’t even suspect that maybe Rin herself actually planned it. I can understand Shirou being idiotic enough to not suspect, but Saber? Then later on Rin apologises as if all Archer did was have a petty argument with him. And after Shinji’s dealt with in a rather anticlimactic fashion, Archer comes afterwards and Shirou just calmly observes him and his relationship with Rin as if he didn’t just try to fucking kill him yesterday. Maybe this is another hint at how disturbingly little Shirou cares about himself but this is the same problem as before. I’d rather they illustrate in a ways that don’t make him look like a complete moron. Saber and Rin have no excuse. They get into arguments with him and neither seemed in the least bit angry or cautious with Archer for trying to kill Shirou. In fact, light and upbeat music was played the entire time, even when Saber challenged him to a fight. What. The. Fuck? Am I the only that sees something wrong with this? Maybe Rin had a massive talking to with him but something as serious as attempted murder shouldn’t just go away THAT easily.

Well later on Shirou finds out that Kuzuki is Casters Master and they go to ambush him like in the anime. There were four things that pissed me off. One: The idea that this guy could actually overwhelm Saber is just too much for me to take. Two: They actually admitted that Caster made a stupid mistake and for no reason at all. Three: Whilst Kuzuki was beating the crap out of Saber, why didn’t Caster kill Shirou and Rin while she had the chance? Four: It’s kind of horribly convenient that Kuzuki’s style just so happens to be useless at Round 2 since it’s essentially what forces them to retreat. Basically I don’t like Kuzuki at all. He’s too strong on round one, too weak on round two, he’s ugly, has the personality of a spoon, looks ridiculous when he does that stupid snake fist stance of his and has a really big nose.

Spoiler for space:

Well at least it was still better than the anime where Shirou actually fights Kuzuki AND DOES BETTER THAN SABER.

Well after that there was some bonding between Shirou and Rin, which I really liked. And then Archer comes in again and Saber and Shirou suddenly remember that Archer tried to kill him. Thank God. Anyway, Archer helps Shirou a bit and then promptly shits on his ideals. Nice.

And then, randomly, a date.

Oooooooooooooookaaaaaaaay, lets go with that then. Wait, was it really wise for them to just forget about other masters trying to kill them and piss around for a while? No, no it wasn’t. Well that fucked them up didn’t it? Hey isn’t this like what happened in Fate? Shirou and Saber go on a date and nearly get killed by Gilgamesh. Lesson learned: Never go on dates. And then Archer betrays Tohsaka. What a twist! I wasn’t convinced at the time that it was genuine since the Bad Ending where Shirou just charges in recklessly has him quite specifically saying that Archer faces his fate like a loyal knight. But it does lead to a very sweet scene where Shirou comforts Rin. And Ilya FINALLY gets into this story. I was wondering where the hell she went.

Then we get an explanation of what happened to Caster. Apparently she killed her master even though she must have surely released at the time that her master didn’t give her enough energy to find another master. Ooookaaaay, kind of brought it on herself really.

And then Ilya dies with Berserker. Oh COME ON! Well it is kinda clever how she has such a minor role after being hyped up in the beginning of the story as a serious threat. Plus Ilya’s interlude was freaking heartbreaking, I almost cried. It was so not an appropriate time to have pointless random comedy but the bastards do it anyway. Well at least they acquire Lancer’s aide (in a rather timely convenient manner btw), and then after much fighting Rin resorts to simply kicking Casters ass (why is that when imagine Rin using martial arts, I think of Fujiyabashi Kyou drop kicking Sunohara?). Wait, what the hell happened to that Azoth Knife Rin had? Why did she just use that? Well Archer kills Caster in a way that seems as if Lancer’s help wasn’t even needed at all. WTF??? Plus Archer’s backstabbing strategy seems like a major Xanatos Roulette. Basically the only way that it would (apparently) work is if Rin and Shirou got the aid of another servant. Now I’d say that’s a pretty big if. Was this really the strategy that had the highest probability of victory? Then Kuzuki randomly kills himself because he’s an idiot. Good riddance, I say.

Well Archer tires to kill Shirou again and fails AGAIN. Not very good at this are you Archer? Well I suppose it’s only expected for someone who quite literally has the worst Luck (Which is kind of ironic since Shirou has it in abundance even with all the Bad Endings. How the hell do you even rank Luck anyway?). Saber making a contract with Rin was pretty damn awesome, and also it becomes obvious that Archer is Emiya’s future self...

....


....

Spoiler for space:

Okay, let’s ignore the fact that Archer has a different hair color, eye color, face complexion, a much deeper voice and all round completely different physical appearance...

Then Shirou defeats a foe that he shouldn’t be able to defeat with...determination. Yeah that’s right determination. Well that’s just fantastic. Can’t expect Shirou to do something clever, oh no. Belief in his ideals. And for some reason we’re only given the proper reason after the end. Archer came to understand that the dream is beautiful again. Ooookaaaay, you know what, screw this shit. I’m going to fanwank a better theory. My belief is that it’s easier to deal with something you know will happen. Obviously Archer didn’t expect life as a counter guardian to be so shit so he wasn’t prepared for his ideals to shaken so strongly and lost them. Shirou now knows and he can strengthen his resolve. Archer understood that and realised Shirou wouldn’t become like him after all. After all if Shirou could surprise Archer then that clearly means Archer didn’t didn’t know him aswell as he thought he did. THIS IS WHAT REALLY HAPPENED, AND I DON’T CARE WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS. But you know it’s hard to really sympathise with Archer since we’re not really given an actual account of his past. Why did his life as a counter guardian cause him to lose faith in his ideals? He said it was like reading a book of what happened to him. That must’ve been some emotional book (I wonder if he can go through different dimensions and acted as a Counter Force through Enjou Tomoe. Now that would be sweet).To be honest, overall I wasn’t particularly impressed with this fight. I mean I just recently read Naruto defeating his inner self with a freaking hug. Obviously it’s not the same thing but kinda reminds me of it. I would’ve liked it better if Shirou’s resolve was connected to Rin in some way. Maybe Rin’s love for him had given had given him a stronger sense of self worth. Maybe his love for him meant he didn’t want to let her down. Something like that.

Then Gilgamesh promptly trolls everyone and gives a hefty amount of exposition for the lulz. And then decides NOT to kill his biggest threat because he doesn’t want his clothes to get dirty...Honestly, there’s not much I hate more than a Big Bad that fails because somewhere along the line he was too arrogant to do something he really ought to have done. And this is pretty damn arrogant, even for Big Bad standards. Then Shirou has sex with Tohsaka for another ridiculously flimsy reason. I kinda had a feeling that was where your avatar was from DragoZERO. This would’ve been much better if they announced their love for each other beforehand and they were having sex to comfort each other before the final battle. That would’ve made a lot more sense.

So the group finally go to confront Gilgamesh and lo and behold Assassin is still there. Kinda saw that coming but that’s only because I saw it in the anime. Shirou’s battle with Gilgamesh was pretty damn epic. “But there is no rule that an imitation cannot defeat the original”. I’m really glad he said that because that’s been bugging me for ages. And I lolled when the void swallowed him up. To Shirou that must’ve just been like the most random thing ever. I lolled when Tohsaka just matter of factly stated she used neurosurgery to save Shinji, as it’s no freaking big deal what so ever. Then Archer saves both Shirou and Rin’s ass.

Spoiler for space:

Ooooooohhh, because he’s the Counterforce. Nice . Rin’s farewell with Archer and Archer’s smile was quite touching, I have to admit. And finally we get an epilogue and Rin and Shirou decide to go to the Mage Association.

So overall, I’d say this was good. Quite frankly it was much better than the Fate route. The arcs have more connection to each other and the storyline is more complicated but everything until Casters death still feels like its done entirely to slowly build a connection between Archer and Shirou. However, this time Rin and Tohsaka are much more active. In Fate it seemed as if the only reason Shirou and Rin did anything was because their enemies forced them too. Shirou, Rin, Archer, Caster and Ilya are given far more character depth this time round which was good. I still have some other problems with UBW, some of which are specific to the route and some of which aren’t.

So far:
Anime: 4/10
Fate Route: 5/10
Unlimited Blade Works: 7/10

Now on to Heaven’s Feel!

Spoiler for space:

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Slowly but steadily progressing through UBW again. Got to the next set of new images, so...

Spoiler for More fun with UBW!:

I forgot how silly the early parts of this route are. Saber is a lot snarkier than I remember, and I'm getting her 'disdainful' look a lot. And of course, people re-writing their memories to forget about Rin freaking out, the Tsunderism turned up to its highest magnitude, and of course Rin and Archer's interactions are always fun to watch. Those two should have a comedy routine. It's weird, but I didn't really care for Archer the first time I did this route, but I'm kinda digging him now. Not sure why, but can't say I mind.

Not that I'm helping things. I made the choice to let Fuji-nee cook Saber dinner, and I don't even feel guilty for it. (Speaking of, there's more Fuji-nee in this route than I remembered. That's good. I would have liked her to get her own route, just so I could hang out with her through a whole storyline. She's awesome).

As for the latest two CG's they're a pair of images of Kuzuki's 'snake' beating the tar out of Saber. One of her taking a hit to the back of her head, and one of him holding her up by her neck. The second looks particularly cool; the whole thing is done in shades of red, and they're in silhouette so you can just barely see the look of pain on Saber's face. It's honestly kinda creepy.

Not bad; an improvement over Fate so far, certainly. And just looking through the gallery, I'm very hopeful: the game adds 'non-displayed picture' squares into the galleries, and right now I'm seeing empty spaces in close proximity to the Shirou/Archer and Shirou/Gilgamesh duels. A fully illustrated Unlimited Blade Works vs. Gate of Babylon would just about make my life.

You know, the more you talk about it the more it makes me want to go back and reinstall the patch with the RN images. I think I have a couple of them in my version, but not the full set. I feel tempted to go download it now.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Haak

So far:
Anime: 4/10
Fate Route: 5/10
Unlimited Blade Works: 7/10

I don't have the time or patience to reply to everything in your post, but I'll answer one of your questions about Archer.

I thought it was pretty clear that Archer's life as a counter guardian turned him against his ideals... But anyhow. He kept being summoned into hell, having to destroy many humans to prevent humans from destroying themselves. All he was able to see in his life was the ugliest parts of human beings, and he started to hate the very people he originally wanted to save.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Haak

So far:
Anime: 4/10
Fate Route: 5/10
Unlimited Blade Works: 7/10

And I will also touch one point! Regarding Kuzuki: yeah, that's the point of him. His fighting style isn't actually good so much as bizarre, and Saber in particular, who fights heavily on instinct, is at a huge disadvantage against it because her instincts tell her to do what would counter a normal martial arts style, which is very different from how 'snake' should be countered. As a result, he beat her so easily because she's basically tailor-made for him. Someone like Archer, who fights by analysis and could more quickly see through the technique, could take him apart even with Caster enhancing him since 'snake' is actually not a very useful fighting style once the opponent gets the trick behind it.

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

You know, the more you talk about it the more it makes me want to go back and reinstall the patch with the RN images. I think I have a couple of them in my version, but not the full set. I feel tempted to go download it now.

If you're planning to read through the story again anyway, it's very much worth the download. Just do keep in mind: that is a lot of story to go through for new pics!