Sasuke vs. Neji

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by epyon96

Can you be absolutely sure of that? I recall in previous discussiosn that the general consus and the assumptions were based on the assumption that Jyukan does not...

Perhaps new evidence popped up recently to discount that..

You dreamed that, the 'general consensus' is and was exactly what was explained about the Jyuken since it was introduced in the volume 9, ie it needs a slight touch to function.

It's a Taijutsu style, the Hyuga don't kill remotely.

Originally Posted by hunterx

It bugs you because our assumptions are not consistent with what happens

Spoiler:

In your explanation, the spiders are physically holding neji so he can't spin. Yet it is inconsistent with how it was explained in volume 12. The chakra release should be able to block the knives even if he is held to a standstill.

In my explanation, the spiders are taking down the chakra neji releases to block the knives, so he has to physically move to avoid them. Consistent how the kaiten works in volume 12

lol actually it's the opposite, your assumption aren't consistent whith what happens, it's so much obvious that you must talk about what happens 94 chapters ago to forget the fact that what you say just don't stick to what happens in the chapter we talk about.

Spoiler:

So much that you just invented Neji was moving and jumping without cuting the webs which never happens in the fight.



It's exactly what I said : Neji thinks that there is too many spiders to handle, he tries to do the Kaiten, starts to spin his legs as usual but is blocked by a web sticking to his shoulder and hand even before he emitted the least bit of chakra.

Worse than that page 4 Neji shows that he can emit chakra while being completely engulfed in the webs

VMLM3, when Kankuro and Temari fled with Gaara, the signal was given, the war already started and Gaara should have started to run amok destroying everything in Shukaku form.
But he was unable to do that because he was suffering from the side effect due to the interruption of his jutsu by Sasuke.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by VMLM3

Orochimaru wasn't going to let him live, he was lying. Besides that, I don't think this is a valid point, it's true that Sasuke panicked, but I'm not so sure other genins wouldn't have done the same thing. Sasuke was completely over powered in a real life and death situation, something that had never happened to him before. Both neji and Sasuke are equally confident of their abilities, if neji had been so obviously over powered maybe he would've panicked too. Naruto had already passed his panick, he had more experience with fear and was more capable of handleing himself, Sakura simpy doesn't do anything anyway.

The only thing Oro did to freak out Sasuke was to project killing intent. While this can be quite intimidating, Sasuke had already been exposed to high-risk atmospheres (against Zabuza). The only thing that Sasuke should have concluded was that his mystery opponent in the forest was, in fact, a Genin just like him. It would be an incorrect assumption, but a very reasonable one. No one should expect to fight against Elite Jounin in an exam situation fighting Genins.

Manga reader?

Spoiler:

Neji was quite overpowered during his fight with Kidomaru, yet he didn't give up at any point during the fight. He was trapped in the Earth prison alongside all the other Genins, yet didn't lose hope. Neji was faced with a hopeless situation twice in one day.

[Hunter]

But there is a difference Raikage.

Spoiler:

Neji was in a real mission, he knew that it was a combat to the death with no negotiation possible.

Whereas as far as Sasuke knew it was possible that Oro could be satisfied with the scroll and leave.

Though Sasuke took his decision mostly for bad reason, ie mostly fear (and it's rather normal, even Kakashi felt the same), I think that in the end he was right.
He faced an opponent who outclassed them completely, who could froze them with just a glance with his sakki.
Then there were two possibilities :
-Refuse to give the scroll, fight and be killed at 99,9% probability (just not to say 100%).
-Give him the scroll with a possibility that their opponent leaves after that.
In this case at least they would be alive to seek 2 others scroll.

Facts are that finally they lost their scroll, Naruto was alive because Sakura stopped his mortal fall and Sasuke because Oro didn't want to kill him.

[raikage]

It is true that in the Forest, it would be a definite possibility to give this mystery nin the scroll and be able to leave.

Spoiler:

However, Neji has NEVER reacted as strongly/lost his mind in fear to anywhere near the extent that Sasuke did. It is true that Neji has never faced down an Elite Jounin in a life-or-death situation, though.

Once again, Sasuke could/should have been under the impression that his Forest opponent was a Genin. He really had no solid reason to believe otherwise at first.

However, a really good argument could be made that Sasuke could feel something was wrong with the level of 'killing intent' he felt. That level is far and beyond anything else shown so far except when Kakashi stood up to Oro.

And, I'm talking about before Sasuke offered the scroll - it did take him a while to realize that he could offer it up instead of their lives.

Spoiler:

And Neji had no idea as to the power levels of the Four. Actually, never mind - with the Byakugan, he could see the power difference between Kido and Curse Seal 1 Kido. But, he also knew that he was facing an enemy who had figured out how to neutralize his strengths and manipulate his weaknesses - which is still a very deadly fight in itself. He was trapped in the Earth Prison and knew that his own abilities could not get them out, yet did not panic.

[hunterx]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Spoiler:

So much that you just invented Neji was moving and jumping without cuting the webs which never happens in the fight.



It's exactly what I said : Neji thinks that there is too many spiders to handle, he tries to do the Kaiten, starts to spin his legs as usual but is blocked by a web sticking to his shoulder and hand even before he emitted the least bit of chakra.

Worse than that page 4 Neji shows that he can emit chakra while being completely engulfed in the webs

VMLM3, when Kankuro and Temari fled with Gaara, the signal was given, the war already started and Gaara should have started to run amok destroying everything in Shukaku form.
But he was unable to do that because he was suffering from the side effect due to the interruption of his jutsu by Sasuke.

lol you just admitted the inconistency in your theory in the previous message. You've probably already seen this many times but here it is again

Spoiler:

In the explanation, neji does NOT not need to move to initiate the kaiten




fact: Neji releases chakra before he starts spinning.

Analyzing the attack..

The spiders stopped the heavenly spin the first time by basically turning the spinning chakra into some sort of sticky goo. During this process spiderman throws a knife at neji. On page 4 (which you referred to), neji stops releasing chakra (he does not emit it!) and uses the momentum of the spiderwebs to dodge the attack.

Neji: "They are halting the rotation of the chakra by binding it with webs of chakra"
Neji: "If the kaiten doesn't work.., I'll simply dodge them one by one"

The important thing here is that the spiders attack chakra. This prevents the chakra from blocking anything thrown at Neji.

The second time, he follows the same procedure in the picture above. He releases chakra, then he tries to spin. He manages to turn around once before the spiders attacked his chakra again.

Neji: "I still can't use kaiten"

well obviously. the moment he releases chakra it the spiders attack it.

From here on spiderman wears neji down by throwing knives and sending in the spiders to take down any chakra he releases to block them.

This thread could go on forever. My argument is the spiders were attacking neji's chakra not neji's movements. There are just too many panels where neji moves around dodge knives and arrows to support the argument that the spiders were stopping neji from spinning. Spiderman even said it himself.. paraphrasing "I found a perfect way to capture you. so all I have to do is stop that spinning chakra!". He wasn't interested in stopping neji, just the chakra. Spiderman even deduced this later himself. Neji uses the kaiten to make up for the blindspot in the byakugan. Spiderman focused on stopping the kaiten while attacking neji's blindspot.

Finally they are two important elements to the kaiten. Releasing chakra and spinning. Stopping the chakra is more important to defeating the kaiten than stopping the spinning.

[Mcdougal]

Originally Posted by VMLM3

Actually Gaara's brothers didn't bail him out because they feared for his life, they bailed him out because they where worried he might lose control and let out Shukaku before he was supposed to.

Actually, the attack had already started. The sound 4 had sealded oro and sarutobi inside that prism field, snakes had been summoned and the assault had commenced. Kankuro and temari and their teacher rush into the arena, upon which Temari states that Gaara has drained his chakra and cant us "it". That's why they moved gaara away, so he could get back his chakra and transform.

Orochimaru wasn't going to let him live, he was lying. Besides that, I don't think this is a valid point, it's true that Sasuke panicked, but I'm not so sure other genins wouldn't have done the same thing. Sasuke was completely over powered in a real life and death situation, something that had never happened to him before. Both neji and Sasuke are equally confident of their abilities, if neji had been so obviously over powered maybe he would've panicked too. Naruto had already passed his panick, he had more experience with fear and was more capable of handleing himself, Sakura simpy doesn't do anything anyway.

Full agreement on this one.

edit: ooops, looks like hunter beat me to the answer. Ah well, maybe next time

[Hunter]

Raikage, it doesn't matter if he should have only met Genin in the forest.
The fact is that Sasuke was in front of a guy emitting more sakki than even Zabuza, a ninja so dangerous that the only thing he could do in order to just move was stabbing himself.

Spoiler:

and it's not only him or Kakashi, the winner of the 'new body contest' who was probably a Jounin as well (as Kabuto said, he was preparing the best of the best) was almost crying just by the sakki of Oro, as if a monstrous gigantic beast was in front of him.

Neji seems to have an even better 'poker face' than Sasuke, that's true.
But in front of Oro, he would have frozen as well.

Originally Posted by hunterx

lol you just admitted the inconistency in your theory in the previous message. You've probably already seen this many times but here it is again

Certainely not, I didn't come with a theory about that in the first place, i merely described the events and I pointed that your theory doesn't stick with them.

In the explanation, neji does NOT not need to move to initiate the kaiten
fact: Neji releases chakra before he starts spinning.

Nothing new here, it's true.

Spoiler:

Analyzing the attack..

The spiders stopped the heavenly spin the first time by basically turning the spinning chakra into some sort of sticky goo. During this process spiderman throws a knife at neji. On page 4 (which you referred to), neji stops releasing chakra (he does not emit it!) and uses the momentum of the spiderwebs to dodge the attack.

It's simply completely wrong.

Spoiler:

Page 2 : the webs bind the spinning chakra and thus the kaiten letting Neji wild open, Kidoumaru launch a kunai toward Neji, panel of Neji with no more chakra around him, start of the representation of Neji's field of vision.
Page 3 : representation of Neji's wild field of vision, still no chakra around him, Neji is still binded by the webs, he starts to emit chakra in the second panel, the chakra extends and from a tentacle which catch the kunai to deviate it in the 3rd panel.
Page 4 ; thanks to that Neji still binded moves the kunai and thus is able to dodge it in the first panel, Kidoumaru explains that Neji emitted chakra at the last instant to alter the momentum of the kunai in the second panel.
in the 4th panel Neji understands and explains that the webs are halting the rotation of the chakra by binding it, he starts to cut them all in the 5th panel and says that if Kaiten doesn't work he will dodge them all.
Page 5 : little chit-chat, Kidoumaru launch a new wave of kunai.
Page 6 : Neji avoids them all, not binded by any web.
Page 7 : New wave of spiders, Neji attacks them with the 64 hands of Hakke, he thinks that there is too much of them, tries to start the Kaiten (same sfx as usual when he start to spin), the last panel shows Neji with not a bit of chakra around him grasped by the webs (with the sfx meaning grip), he says that he still can't use Kaiten.
Page 8 : Neji's still binded in the webs while 3 kunais moves toward him, at the last moment Neji notices them and dodge them cutting all the webs, he oticed them to late and was wounded, Kidoumaru notices that.
Page 9 : explanation of vision of the Byakugan.
Page 10 : the others Sound nins.
Page 11 : Neji isn't binded, he was stricken by a kunai in the back, Kidoumaru launch a new wave of kunais + spiders.
Page 12 : Neji tries to avoid them all but he's stricken by two other kunais
Page 13 : Neji falls, cuts the webs while falling, kidoumaru understands that the Byakugan vision isn't perfect.
Page 14 : Neji stands, little chit-chat.
Page 15 : Kidoumaru releases the big spider on Neji who strike it, the summon disappear recovering Neji with its sticking stuff and revealing that a huge wave of kunai moves toward him.
Neji is on the ground, stricken by 3 new kunais, he start to try to stand.
Page 16-17 : Kidoumaru becomes bored of that and start to use his curse seal in lvl 2.

Neji: "They are halting the rotation of the chakra by binding it with webs of chakra"
Neji: "If the kaiten doesn't work.., I'll simply dodge them one by one"

The important thing here is that the spiders attack chakra. This prevents the chakra from blocking anything thrown at Neji.

The important part is exactly what Neji said and not what you made up : the webs stop the rotation of the chakra by binding it and Neji did emit chakra while being binded page 4 without even speaking that each single time Neji cut the webs it was by emitting chakra as well, it's the whole point of the Jyuken.

The second time, he follows the same procedure in the picture above. He releases chakra, then he tries to spin. He manages to turn around once before the spiders attacked his chakra again.

Neji didn't release any chakra and didn't turn around even once, the panel and the sfx are quite clear about that.

well obviously. the moment he releases chakra it the spiders attack it.

The spiders don't attack at all, they produce the webs which sticks to the chakra, binds it and thus stop its rotation, exactly as Neji explained.

From here on spiderman wears neji down by throwing knives and sending in the spiders to take down any chakra he releases to block them.

Same here, you invented that, the webs doesn't absorb the chakra : Neji cut them with it.

This thread could go on forever. My argument is the spiders were attacking neji's chakra not neji's movements.

And it's wrong, the webs did both.

There are just too many panels where neji moves around dodge knives and arrows to support the argument that the spiders were stopping neji from spinning.

Completely wrong, there isn't even a single pic showing Neji dodging the kunai while binded by the webs, he always vut them all.

Spiderman even said it himself.. paraphrasing "I found a perfect way to capture you. so all I have to do is stop that spinning chakra!". He wasn't interested in stopping neji, just the chakra.

And that's true, the Kaiten was canceled because the webs binded the chakra, still they continue to bind Neji's body which is precisely why he continued to cut them all even when he was attacking and dodging the kunais.

Spiderman even deduced this later himself. Neji uses the kaiten to make up for the blindspot in the byakugan. Spiderman focused on stopping the kaiten while attacking neji's blindspot.

Nothing to do with the current discussion.

Finally they are two important elements to the kaiten. Releasing chakra and spinning. Stopping the chakra is more important to defeating the kaiten than stopping the spinning.

Once again true and there is nothing new here, which doesn't change that the webs binded Neji's body as well.

[AznExzztasy]

Originally Posted by raikage

I wasn't trying to state that Neji could catch Sasuke's wrist, but that someone being able to move out of the path of Chidori isn't unheard of at all. Neji may be fast enough to sidestep the move, duck, jump out of the way, a hundred things other than to Kaiten it.

I also didn't mean that Neji was the equal of Itachi, but considering how Itachi tends to use nin/genjustu rather than taijutsu, and the fact that Neji excels in all things taijutsu-related, that the concept of Neji being quick enough to react to Chidori is once again not too far off IMHO.

Fan Book, not Character Data Book, pages 114-116 for the matchups.

And, AznExzztasy, Neji is NOT a Jounin level ninja at all.

i didnt say Neji was jounin level, but merely some of his moves. although they may not seem like much, we haven't seen the full potential of jounins anyway. its not often we see jounins in a long, fought out battle. even during the chuunin exam, we didn't see many high level skills being used by them. if neji fought a jounin, he may or may not win. but my point is that he is skillful enough to fight with them. win or lose, he is more than enough competition for any genin or even some low level jounins. there are probably classes of jounins anyway. you wouldnt exactly compare kakashi to hayate would you? just saying

[Hideki Keiji]

Originally Posted by AznExzztasy

you wouldnt exactly compare kakashi to hayate would you?

Unless I am mistaken, Hayate is a chuunin, not a jounin.

[ein]

Originally Posted by Hideki Keiji

Unless I am mistaken, Hayate is a chuunin, not a jounin.

Hayate was a Jounin. Jounins preside over chuunin exams (e.g., Ibiko, Anko, Genma)

[raikage]

Hayate was a Tokubetsu (Special) Jounin. In fact, all three that ein mentioned - Morino Ibiki, Mitarashi Anko, and Shiranui Genma are all Tokubetsu Jounin.
AznExzztasy, Kagebunshin is a move used by Jounin level ninjas. Doesn't make Naruto competition for a Jounin, though...

Consider that Neji is a taijutsu specialist, yeah? And, at the end of Neji vs Hinata, every single Jounin and Tokubetsu Jounin (with the exception of Asuma, who didn't go) managed to place themselves between the two, traveling farther AND significantly faster than Neji.

As good as Neji is, I don't think he could last very long against Kakashi, Gai, or Asuma (who are all Jounin).

[Mcdougal]

Originally Posted by raikage

Hayate was a Tokubetsu (Special) Jounin. In fact, all three that ein mentioned - Morino Ibiki, Mitarashi Anko, and Shiranui Genma are all Tokubetsu Jounin.
AznExzztasy, Kagebunshin is a move used by Jounin level ninjas. Doesn't make Naruto competition for a Jounin, though...

Consider that Neji is a taijutsu specialist, yeah? And, at the end of Neji vs Hinata, every single Jounin and Tokubetsu Jounin (with the exception of Asuma, who didn't go) managed to place themselves between the two, traveling farther AND significantly faster than Neji.

As good as Neji is, I don't think he could last very long against Kakashi, Gai, or Asuma (who are all Jounin).

True, but you also have to consider that the Jouinin of the leaf seem to be exceptionally talented. On the flipside, the jounin of the sound, for instance, got slaughtered quite easily by the leaf Jounin/Chunin. Gai and Kakashi alone were enough to hold back 30 or so sound ninjas.

[ein]

Originally Posted by Mcdougal

True, but you also have to consider that the Jouinin of the leaf seem to be exceptionally talented. On the flipside, the jounin of the sound, for instance, got slaughtered quite easily by the leaf Jounin/Chunin. Gai and Kakashi alone were enough to hold back 30 or so sound ninjas.

Sound is a pretty young village. It hasn't existed yet that long as to "breed" exceptional ninjas. Leaf, on the other hand, houses some 'strange' (Chouji's, Shika's, Shino's, Kiba's families) and powerful (Hyuuga/Uchiha) clans, larger in population, and existed longer than Sound (hence, they had the time and experience to enhance/develop their combat skills/strategies).

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Mcdougal

True, but you also have to consider that the Jouinin of the leaf seem to be exceptionally talented. On the flipside, the jounin of the sound, for instance, got slaughtered quite easily by the leaf Jounin/Chunin. Gai and Kakashi alone were enough to hold back 30 or so sound ninjas.

Not EVERYONE is a Jounin, you know...

I would guess that given the references to Sound's young age and size, the village might not even HAVE thirty Jounin. The ones Gai and Kakashi fought were most likely Genin or maybe even Chuunin.

We have only seen a few Jounin so far, which segues nicely into an smackdown that I personally would like to see:

Spoiler:

My sorry attempt at Photoshopping something together.
No idea who would win, as we haven't seen too much out of Baki so far and only a small (but effective) amount out of Zabuza.

[yinstro]

about the team 7 incident, i think its important to realize thats one of Oros main and powerful jutsu's i believe, heck from his eyes it may even be a bloodline ability. (just a guess) Its a powerful genjutsu technique designed to totally fill the target with terror. this is one of the techs useless against itachi. ( i dont rem where but i rem oro talking bout itachi seeing through his eye technique i think, maybe my memory is false) and it being a big minus. Maybe this is why he can take itachi, considering he did it to the

Spoiler:

last guy whos body he possesed before possing it, in sound 4 manga arc

So basically point is, its a little unfair to say that he only paniced, we have yet to see a full explanation of this jutsu and what it totally does.

As far as the main topic, neiji doesnt need to use kaiten to dodge attacks, he just chooses to use it. he can catch 2 thrown kunais, the second in the whole of the first, his reaction or prediction speed and response or whatever isnot low. using regular wires to beat him kind of acts like hes not a highly skilled highly observative fighter. One difference about the web and wires is his web can spread or be straight with one spit. most wire techs you often see are one at a time, and wire traps, neiji should be able to see and notice way ahead of time, if his byakugan has the observation power people say it does. as far as other jutsu's many jutsu's of the long range offensive type i have seen can be dodged, and im pretty sure most can be repelled by chakra, so lets not just make it simple to find his weakness. its important to not the kaiten does in fact have a downward component as well, whenevr neiji uses kaiten he ends up making a slightly sphere shaped crater after using it, so just going under him isnt enough

[AznExzztasy]

remember that old guy who was taking the chuunin exam? there was like this one old guy who was sitting there with little kids taking the written part? he's not even chuunin yet but he looks like hes 50. lol.

well, neji may not be jounin level but i guess i was outside influenced since neji is my favorite character besides naruto. i think that the jounins are a higher level of adult ninja. there are classes based on skill so i think that the majority of the adults are either chuunin or low level jounin. kakashi seems to be one of the elites since he was trained by the 4th.

[Shadamehr]

I'm pretty sure a huge majority of people never make it past chuunin. Jounins do A-Rank missions, which are like big-time political assassinations and high level espionage and such. There aren't enough of these missions for a large portion of every hidden ninja village to be getting them as assignments on a regular basis. "Well, we've already assassinated the daimyo, his wife, son, and cousin's roommate, how about you assassinate his dog?"

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by raikage

Consider that Neji is a taijutsu specialist, yeah? And, at the end of Neji vs Hinata, every single Jounin and Tokubetsu Jounin (with the exception of Asuma, who didn't go) managed to place themselves between the two, traveling farther AND significantly faster than Neji.

But then Raikage, it's not like Neji was running at full speed..

As good as Neji is, I don't think he could last very long against Kakashi, Gai, or Asuma (who are all Jounin).

He could probably beat Kurenai................[peter griffin] Because she's a giiiirrrl[/peter griffin]

[UserName]

Originally Posted by Ke0

He could probably beat Kurenai................[peter griffin] Because she's a giiiirrrl[/peter griffin]

Kurenai isn't weak... she is the best at genjutsu in the Leaf... but then Byakugan can see through all genjutsu(this includes Tsukiyomi).... well I'm sure she's not crappy in other ways. Though genjutsu might have been the reason for promotion and she was a Chuunin until just recently... meh. She might be good in other areas though.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by yinstro

about the team 7 incident, i think its important to realize thats one of Oros main and powerful jutsu's i believe, heck from his eyes it may even be a bloodline ability. (just a guess) Its a powerful genjutsu technique designed to totally fill the target with terror. this is one of the techs useless against itachi. ( i dont rem where but i rem oro talking bout itachi seeing through his eye technique i think, maybe my memory is false) and it being a big minus. Maybe this is why he can take itachi, considering he did it to the

Spoiler:

last guy whos body he possesed before possing it, in sound 4 manga arc

So basically point is, its a little unfair to say that he only paniced, we have yet to see a full explanation of this jutsu and what it totally does.

As far as the main topic, neiji doesnt need to use kaiten to dodge attacks, he just chooses to use it. he can catch 2 thrown kunais, the second in the whole of the first, his reaction or prediction speed and response or whatever isnot low. using regular wires to beat him kind of acts like hes not a highly skilled highly observative fighter. One difference about the web and wires is his web can spread or be straight with one spit. most wire techs you often see are one at a time, and wire traps, neiji should be able to see and notice way ahead of time, if his byakugan has the observation power people say it does. as far as other jutsu's many jutsu's of the long range offensive type i have seen can be dodged, and im pretty sure most can be repelled by chakra, so lets not just make it simple to find his weakness. its important to not the kaiten does in fact have a downward component as well, whenevr neiji uses kaiten he ends up making a slightly sphere shaped crater after using it, so just going under him isnt enough

It's not a jutsu, it's just killer intent, what you're thinking of is Orochimaru's binding jutsu. Before he bounded them, Sasuke was just scared because Orochimaru projected so much killer intent, that it caused Sasuke to freeze up. Later Orochimaru used his binding jutsu so that Sasuke couldn't move