Medaka Box [Manga]

[Sol Falling]

Nishio likes to write about two things: geniuses, and failure. His very first book/series, Zaregoto, is about a main character who is both of these things. Similarly, with slight spoilers for Kizumonogatari, the Bakemonogatari series is also a story about failure. As a matter of fact, you could call Shichika (from Katanagatari) a failure too. In Medaka Box, we have two characters who seem to be embodiments of "genius" and "failure". However, I'm sure that if anyone were to genuinely accuse Medaka of being a "genius", the one most offended would be Nishio himself.

Nishio likes to write about geniuses because he has often been called a genius. On the other hand, Nishio often writes about failure because he has a deep personal understanding of failure. I think that the contrast between supposed "potential" or "ability" and reality is at the core of at lot of Nishio's works.

I've got a copy of Nishio's first book (Zaregoto Book 1: the Kubikiri Cycle) in my hands right here, and I'm looking at the afterword. The whole thing is something of an essay on the concept of genius, but there are references to characters and personalities within the actual novel which people who haven't read it wouldn't get. I can't really be arsed to parse it and try to extract the references though, so I might as well just post the whole thing; here you go, straight from the mouth of Nishio Ishin, a full decade ago now in 2002:

Let's imagine for a moment that what you hold in your hand is an extraordinarily enthralling work of fiction of the highest order. As you know, that's not truly the case, but let's pretend. Now let's say you finish reading it, and in that very instant, you scream: "This writer is a genius!" I don't know if you would really scream that sort of thing, but let's say the writer of this book is oft the subject of such praise. But such expressions sound not unlike excuses of the common man, as if claiming, "That person is a genius; in other words he's of a superior race totally separate from you and me, so of course he can do things we can't do" or something to that unseemly effect. "We're not to be looked down upon, we're simply looking up." And indeed that statement is correct, but I can't shake the feeling that something is off there. When it comes down to it, I don't think it's a very good thing to rely too much on this word genius. Moreover, not all geniuses are so evaluated. Or rather, most genius goes unnoticed. Meanwhile, those who achieve some sort of result are arbitrarily given the label and people forget that it's really a complex issue based on factors such as effort and environment, none of which should be written off as "genius" if you ask me. Now, it really is a complex issue, so I won't get into the nitty-gritty of it, but when a person sets out to do something, you've got to consider natural-born talent, skill, and effort, not to mention luck and fate as well, so it seems to me that the term genius is putting it all too simply.

That said, you may find yourself a bit surprised by the number of times that word comes up in this book. You've got Ibuki Kanami, Sashirono Yayoi, Sonoyama Akane, Himena Maki, Kunagaisa Tomo, and Aikawa Jun.

The narrator uses every possible opportunity to utter things like "because she was a genius" or "that's just what you'd expect from a genius." But as to whether any of these women are really true geniuses, well, that's a sketchy matter. From their personal standpoint, it's probably more like "if you just do whatever you want all the time, you'll be labeled a genius." Or no, I'm sure they'd have more to say about themselves, but if you asked Ibuki Kanami about it, she'd probably just say, "What do you mean 'genius'? You're just extra dumb." Kubikiri Cycle is an installment in the Zaregoto series that depicts geniuses gathered on an island, and yet there isn't a single genius there.

In having this book published, there were so many people looking after me that this author almost doesn't know whom to thank. If this book can be called anything good, it's thanks to the efforts of these people as well as the bookstores. Incidentally, this puts me in the nerve-racked mindset that if this book turned out to be bad, it's my fault alone, but at any rate I would like to extend my utmost special thanks to the editor-in-chief Katsushi Ota for his goodwill and guidance, illustrator take-san, and Ryusui Seiryoin for decorating this book with undeserved endorsement.

--NISIOISIN

Nishio Ishin writes about genius because genius is misunderstood. He also writes about true genius to illustrate the envy of those who're falsely labelled geniuses. Nishio writes about failure because everyone, even geniuses, often fail--and as a matter of fact, it is often even the geniuses whom can fail most spectacularly. Those are the feelings behind Nishio's works--as someone who is not a genius.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Nishio likes to write about two things: geniuses, and failure. His very first book/series, Zaregoto, is about a main character who is both of these things. Similarly, with slight spoilers for Kizumonogatari, the Bakemonogatari series is also a story about failure. As a matter of fact, you could call Shichika (from Katanagatari) a failure too. In Medaka Box, we have two characters who seem to be embodiments of "genius" and "failure". However, I'm sure that if anyone were to genuinely accuse Medaka of being a "genius", the one most offended would be Nishio himself.

Nishio likes to write about geniuses because he has often been called a genius. On the other hand, Nishio often writes about failure because he has a deep personal understanding of failure. I think that the contrast between supposed "potential" or "ability" and reality is at the core of at lot of Nishio's works.

I've got a copy of Nishio's first book (Zaregoto Book 1: the Kubikiri Cycle) in my hands right here, and I'm looking at the afterword. The whole thing is something of an essay on the concept of genius, but there are references to characters and personalities within the actual novel which people who haven't read it wouldn't get. I can't really be arsed to parse it and try to extract the references though, so I might as well just post the whole thing; here you go, straight from the mouth of Nishio Ishin, a full decade ago now in 2002:



Nishio Ishin writes about genius because genius is misunderstood. He also writes about true genius to illustrate the envy of those who're falsely labelled geniuses. Nishio writes about failure because everyone, even geniuses, often fail--and as a matter of fact, it is often even the geniuses whom can fail most spectacularly. Those are the feelings behind Nishio's works--as someone who is not a genius.

Hmmm isn't that pretty much common sense. Still doesn't explain his focusing on it. Practically anyone that's reached any reasonably high level of learning (which I assume most people do) realises that natural talent only gets you so far, and that natural talent may in fact come from a host of reasons independent of inate ability such as your family and background, as well as your hobbies and what you enjoy doing. But that alone won't take you to the heights of any field. Hard work is and always will be most important. A person with a good work ethic is far more valuable than a genius with a poor one.

The vast, vast majority of genius' end up living a life a mediocrity. Why because, they rely on that talent and don't work hard to improve and surpass it and so those that have worked hard eventually surpass them. If your a genius at maths at age 15, if you don't work at it it's very likely you'll be surprassed by age 20 maybe less and so on.

Quite often people simply lable people genius' because they simply can't fathom the work put it and choose not to. They set barriers and excuses as to why they cannot do those things, when in all honest if they really, really tried they probably could do it, or at least something comparable in scale. Really inate intelligience simply a matter of persepction, certain people simply grasp certain things easier than others due to life experiences and inate dispositions. No one is all knowing so we all have various views and persepctions of the world around us, these perspections allow us to grasp certain things easier than other things. Really that's all intelligience is.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Hmmm isn't that pretty much common sense. Still doesn't explain his focusing on it. Practically anyone that's reached any reasonably high level of learning (which I assume most people do) realises that natural talent only gets you so far, and that natural talent may in fact come from a host of reasons independent of inate ability such as your family and background, as well as your hobbies and what you enjoy doing. But that alone won't take you to the heights of any field. Hard work is and always will be most important. A person with a good work ethic is far more valuable than a genius with a poor one.

The vast, vast majority of genius' end up living a life a mediocrity. Why because, they rely on that talent and don't work hard to improve and surpass it and so those that have worked hard eventually surpass them. If your a genius at maths at age 15, if you don't work at it it's very likely you'll be surprassed by age 20 maybe less and so on.

Quite often people simply lable people genius' because they simply can't fathom the work put it and choose not to. They set barriers and excuses as to why they cannot do those things, when in all honest if they really, really tried they probably could do it, or at least something comparable in scale. Really inate intelligience simply a matter of persepction, certain people simply grasp certain things easier than others due to life experiences and inate dispositions. No one is all knowing so we all have various views and persepctions of the world around us, these perspections allow us to grasp certain things easier than other things. Really that's all intelligience is.

Haha, well if you think so, go on and apply that to Medaka then. Medaka's whole character is about convincing others she's not a genius. Her goal as a Student Council President is to remove those obstacles, those barriers and limitations, which prevent people from finding something they love and pursuing it passionately until they actually achieve something. Medaka's current abilities are also the result of unfathomable amounts of hard work borne from a desperation to reach out and help people. Her position where she stands right now is also the result of countless contributions from people who were generous enough to reach out to her.

Medaka's own perspective has always been that she's not anyone special, that it is possible for anyone else to do what she has done. She's devoted her entire being towards proving that, to helping others prove themselves. If Medaka was lucky to have received the aid of others, then there is nothing shameful about receiving aid from her. That's why, Medaka isn't some who should be seen as an enemy who has to be "beaten", or a tyrant who tramples over other people. Rather, her goal is to help everyone become happy. So to answer her, people should simply become happy themselves.

It's not that "geniuses" have an easier time accomplishing things. In the end, anyone's accomplishments which are actually worth anything come down to the efforts they have put into them themselves. That's why, rather than envying or being antagonistic towards people who've actually accomplished something meaningful, it's always better to look to them as inspiration. If you truly believe yourself equal to someone like Medaka, there is zero reason to fear or to hate her. I think, that's the challenge that Nishio is ultimately pushing for with her character, at the end of this story. Everyone hated Medaka, pretty much, near when this manga started. However, as we come to realize just how serious Medaka (and Nishio) is about the idea that we are all just as capable as her, that hatred should fade away.

[kenjtr]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Haha, well if you think so, go on and apply that to Medaka then. Medaka's whole character is about convincing others she's not a genius. Her goal as a Student Council President is to remove those obstacles, those barriers and limitations, which prevent people from finding something they love and pursuing it passionately until they actually achieve something. Medaka's current abilities are also the result of unfathomable amounts of hard work borne from a desperation to reach out and help people. Her position where she stands right now is also the result of countless contributions from people who were generous enough to reach out to her.

Medaka's own perspective has always been that she's not anyone special, that it is possible for anyone else to do what she has done. She's devoted her entire being towards proving that, to helping others prove themselves. If Medaka was lucky to have received the aid of others, then there is nothing shameful about receiving aid from her. That's why, Medaka isn't some who should be seen as an enemy who has to be "beaten", or a tyrant who tramples over other people. Rather, her goal is to help everyone become happy. So to answer her, people should simply become happy themselves.

It's not that "geniuses" have an easier time accomplishing things. In the end, anyone's accomplishments which are actually worth anything come down to the efforts they have put into them themselves. That's why, rather than envying or being antagonistic towards people who've actually accomplished something meaningful, it's always better to look to them as inspiration. If you truly believe yourself equal to someone like Medaka, there is zero reason to fear or to hate her. I think, that's the challenge that Nishio is ultimately pushing for with her character, at the end of this story. Everyone hated Medaka, pretty much, near when this manga started. However, as we come to realize just how serious Medaka (and Nishio) is about the idea that we are all just as capable as her, that hatred should fade away.

Just what kind of crap are you talking abaut and why do we need to strong as medaka to be her equall , all people are equall in my eye weather they are bad good weak stong clever idiot etc.. these kinds of thins arent the real value of humans . You say medaka makes people happy but can you call that real happiness , i dont hate medaka for trying to make people happy but her ways for doing that is wrong .

For example what if world is a peaceful place now because america dominates them with force , can we think that this is real peace ? wont we afraid of america that can destroy us any minute , arent we giving up our honour for a cheap happiness . medaka beats all school with force and that also means if you dont do what i say i can erase you all , yes people fear medaka and fake a happiness facade .

People obey medaka they dont love her and she cant understand their feelings , for gods sake she cant even see how much zenkichi loves her because its so natural for medaka that people should serve ser . Medaka wants people to serve her , obey her will , be under her foot and forces them if they oppose so medak has a right to do these because he has power ?

Anyway medaka should help pituful self in the first place , i dont even know why people look up to her or hate her cause i just pity her .

[Terizent]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Haha, well if you think so, go on and apply that to Medaka then. Medaka's whole character is about convincing others she's not a genius.

What? Medaka is most definitely, at the very least, an academic genius, except not in the originality part. She's got to have a ridiculously high IQ, judging from her ability to do extremely high level math at like, age 5 or something.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If you truly believe yourself equal to someone like Medaka, there is zero reason to fear or to hate her. I think, that's the challenge that Nishio is ultimately pushing for with her character, at the end of this story. Everyone hated Medaka, pretty much, near when this manga started. However, as we come to realize just how serious Medaka (and Nishio) is about the idea that we are all just as capable as her, that hatred should fade away.

I thought that Nisio was emphasizing that we cannot reach up to Medaka's level. Just look at that outrageous tug of war game. Seriously, if Medaka was really human, she'd have been dragged onto the ground as soon as the entire 1000+ student body started pulling. No one can be on equal ground with her in a physical or mental arena. It'd be foolish to even entertain the idea that you could somehow climb to her level of ability. Moreover, hating or fearing someone has nothing to do with whether or not you are on that person's level. It's perfectly possible to be equals with someone, and still hate them. Like, you know, with the Arch Enemy and the Protagonist.

[kenjtr]

i think what medaka needs is feeling desperation , an existence that totally nullifies her and in front of that existence she will know no matter what she do shell loose but unfortunately there snt anyone like that in medaka box . Medaka s like griifith of berserk while zenkichi is like guts , zenkichi knows he is not pure but he doesnt go to dark side too on the other hand medaka looks like she is light but actually she is darker then darkness . To me it seems like zenkichi will beat medaka and that will be trigger of medakas dark side and they will all see real monster naked , even king doesnt want medaka now that he knows her true nature . i actually prefer zenkichi fall into desperation and be the owerlord then trash medaka

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Terizent

What? Medaka is most definitely, at the very least, an academic genius, except not in the originality part. She's got to have a ridiculously high IQ, judging from her ability to do extremely high level math at like, age 5 or something.

Have you not been following the rest of the conversation? We've been talking about how IQ alone is not necessarily enough to amount to anything. There are people in real life with 180+ IQs who don't even have college degrees. If you consider the millions of people who, for all their relatively high IQs, never manage to actually do something with their intelligence, it'd be a far cry to call them geniuses.

Medaka's present success and achievements certainly have more to do with her passion, effort, and the aid of people who have supported her than anything to do with her intelligence.

I thought that Nisio was emphasizing that we cannot reach up to Medaka's level. Just look at that outrageous tug of war game. Seriously, if Medaka was really human, she'd have been dragged onto the ground as soon as the entire 1000+ student body started pulling. No one can be on equal ground with her in a physical or mental arena. It'd be foolish to even entertain the idea that you could somehow climb to her level of ability. Moreover, hating or fearing someone has nothing to do with whether or not you are on that person's level. It's perfectly possible to be equals with someone, and still hate them. Like, you know, with the Arch Enemy and the Protagonist.

What does that make Zenkichi then, who clung onto the rope to the last straw in the tug of war game? Physically, at least Hinokage Kudou and Kamimutsuro Tsue (Exercise Committee Chairwoman and Karate Club president) have fought with Medaka on a completely equal level. The point is, if people find their strengths it is perfectly possible to challenge Medaka in those arenas. As far as hating Medaka though, you've missed the real point that if you really do consider yourself equal to Medaka there is zero good reason to hate her, unless (like Unzen or Kumagawa) you initially start out with some ideological conflict like hating all people or wanting them all to be as weak as you.

[kenjtr]

Sol Falling why do you think medaka is a succesful person ? did she invent anything or does she have a big succes that lots of people recognise her ? You say medaka puts effort but even if another person do the same effort they wont get 1/2000 of medakas result and how is that fair ? i am not saying medaka needs to be fair but she needs to accept she is way stronger from all people and clever too , well she has a weakness medaka cant imagine or improvise . Medaka is like a super computer which can do mass calculations and with that ability she can do our moves perfecly or better , she can also control all muscles of her body or endure pain etc...

As you can see medaka is a super computer android , yes she will never be able to invent anything but she can modify everything and thats her ability . i actually dont understand why medaka pulls all students and humiliates them , there is no need to do that even if you have the power , people think there is no way for them to beat her and let go of the rope but zenkichi holds it cause real things zenkichi holding isnt just the rope . the thing zenkichi holding was all his efforts and love for medaka and if he let go of that rope it would be over he would lost medaka .

i see zenkichi as a pitiful human for trying impossible cause in the end he will be sad thats all but i also respect him because he is honnest and strong willed , its actually funny that zenkichi created his own nightmare by helping medaka in the first place and that must also be one of the reasons he tries that hard .

i really wonder is there any way to beat medaka cause even if you broke all her bones she can stil stand up which is impossible for anyone in the earth lol , medaka is probably capable of closin pain of her brain too etc.. her abilities are nearly inpossible to beat but what intrests me most abaut medaka is the thing inside her , what did king saw inside her and classified her unhuman . There is something growing inside medaka i wonder what will happen when it hatchs , i wonder is it something like pandoras box ? What calamity will that thing bring ?

Why is medaka always saying zenkichi is the man she choose , why did she choose him for what ? i think maybe medaka will give her darkeness to zenkichi cause she cant handless it or her darkness choose zenkichi so what will happen when zenkichi recives that thing ?

[Last Carpet]

I hope Zenkichi gives up on Medaka and moves on to someone who'll actually reciprocate his feelings.

Seriously, Medaka's dealt with all kinds of people, getting stronger as a result. She has an army of people who want to beat her, and we all know that's never going to happen. I dunno if Zen will be any different.

She's all about saving people and making them happy, but that's not what's happnening here. She doesn't want to make Zen happy, she wants to fight him, she wants to make herself happy. Does she realize that she's going against what she says is her purpose in life? She "reforms" her enemies, and Zen has become her enemy so he can get Medaka to love him. What would reforming Zen mean? That Zen is wrong for loving her? That he should accept that she'll never love him?

I wish Zen would just drop Medaka and find someone else. Which makes me think.....

I wonder how she'd feel if Zen gave up? She's said that Zen is the person she's always wanted to fight, and we all know that there's more than just rivalry between them. What it is exactly I'm not sure, sure as hell isn't love on her part, but it isn't just rivalry. How would she take it if someone up and decided that she wasn't worth the effort or the struggle anymore? She doesn't understand people's hearts, so I wonder how someone resigning any and all feelings they had about her affect Medaka?

[Terizent]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Have you not been following the rest of the conversation? We've been talking about how IQ alone is not necessarily enough to amount to anything. There are people in real life with 180+ IQs who don't even have college degrees. If you consider the millions of people who, for all their relatively high IQs, never manage to actually do something with their intelligence, it'd be a far cry to call them geniuses.

I'm not implying that high IQ is automatically equated with genius, but it's pretty much a damn requirement; I haven't ever heard of geniuses with an IQ of less than 80, have you? At its basest meaning, "genius" is closely related with intelligence. And Medaka does amount to something. 'Cause last time I checked, she was an invincible school council president who probably proves scientific theorems in her free time and has a 99.99% approval rating. That's a genius, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka's present success and achievements certainly have more to do with her passion, effort, and the aid of people who have supported her than anything to do with her intelligence.

Yes, but I doubt that she could have gotten up to her current level of success without the talent that she inherently possessed. Sure, I'm familiar with the ideology of "If you try hard enough, you can do ANYTHING!" But try as they might, a person suffering from severe mental retardation cannot achieve a degree in quantum physics.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What does that make Zenkichi then, who clung onto the rope to the last straw in the tug of war game? Physically, at least Hinokage Kudou and Kamimutsuro Tsue (Exercise Committee Chairwoman and Karate Club president) have fought with Medaka on a completely equal level. The point is, if people find their strengths it is perfectly possible to challenge Medaka in those arenas. As far as hating Medaka though, you've missed the real point that if you really do consider yourself equal to Medaka there is zero good reason to hate her, unless (like Unzen or Kumagawa) you initially start out with some ideological conflict like hating all people or wanting them all to be as weak as you.

Zen's stubborn, and clinging onto a rope does not make him equal to Medaka, it just shows how hard he is willing to work towards his goals. Also, the Karate Council president, as of now, probably can't match up to Medaka anymore and it is incredibly unrealistic to assign Hinokage with the same amount of strength as well, since Hinokage's fight took place before the manga, and the Karate guy's in the beginning. Medaka's leveled up a lot higher since then.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The point is, if people find their strengths it is perfectly possible to challenge Medaka in those arenas. As far as hating Medaka though, you've missed the real point that if you really do consider yourself equal to Medaka there is zero good reason to hate her, unless (like Unzen or Kumagawa) you initially start out with some ideological conflict like hating all people or wanting them all to be as weak as you.

What do you mean, 'find your strengths'? It's not like people can just go rooting around their heads and then challenge her to an obscure skill. And she'd beat them anyways, since that's just who she is.

And why must you focus on not hating her if you're on equal footing? Plenty of characters who are not up to her par admire her and have no feelings of hate towards her. On the other hand, Ajimu, who let us say is extremely close to an equal of Medaka, seems to dislike her. And in the end, Medaka has no equal, since according to WoG, she's the main character, so really, it doesn't matter whether you're equal or not. And what do you mean "a good reason to hate her"? That's like asking what a good reason for murder is.

Oh, and also, Unzen doesn't hate everybody. Why would you slander such an awesome character so?

[kenjtr]

i noticed somewhere in the past zenkichi asked shiranui if she can eat a black hole and when minakouji looked inside medaka he saw a black hole , in abnormal arc zenkichi didnt tried his chance at all and also in kumagawas case he said he thought abaut the possibilty of taking kuagawa in the team .

is it possible that zenkichi is after medakas power ? and he is playing goody two shoes all the time even medaka bought it and if it is thatll be the biggest troll of manga history .

[for3ver]

oh my god...

i havnt participated in this thread for a while.. but.. really..

she didnt even mention zen when she was talking to miyakonojou..

doesnt she consider him a candidate in a relationship?

what the hell.. is she dense? or does she know something?

all in all...

that was way 2 harsh.. imo

Originally Posted by kenjtr

i noticed somewhere in the past zenkichi asked shiranui if she can eat a black hole and when minakouji looked inside medaka he saw a black hole , in abnormal arc zenkichi didnt tried his chance at all and also in kumagawas case he said he thought abaut the possibilty of taking kuagawa in the team .

is it possible that zenkichi is after medakas power ? and he is playing goody two shoes all the time even medaka bought it and if it is thatll be the biggest troll of manga history .

tis would be teh biggest troll..

but i doubt that..

[kenjtr]

i am not sure if medaka thinks zenkichi more then a bug or thinks at all , he was just a pawn to reach her objective and when she done that zenkichi was not needed anymore lol i feel very sad for zenkichi . i think the real problem is zenkichi being a normal and for that reason superb medaka cant even think him as a candidate at all , she says she doesnt look down on humans and there is no special person but she ignores zenkichi because he is not special .

Actually i can understand why medaka doesnt like zenkichi , the thing i dont understand is why zenkichi likes medaka . Medaka shows worst treatment to zenkichi and even if he was the last men in the world she wouldnt want to marry him , not matter what zenkichi does medaka just doesnt love him and that will not change .

From the beginning of the manga all i can see is medaka trying to show zenkchi that they cant be together , she even does all the things he doesnt like . Zenkichi needs to understand that medaka doesnt want her but thats also a trap cause she wants to reform zenkichi , its obious zenkichi will be happier without medaka and even medaka is pushing him for this but he just dont give up . Maybe medaka thinks being with her will make zenkichi unhappy i dont know , really cant understand that girl why did she even pushed zenkichi araund for 10 years .

[Guernsey]

Perhaps Medaka never really had any romantic interest in the first place. Medaka loves Zenikichi like a friend and/or possible rival but never in a romantic way. That is what I think.

[Rejuvenation]

Originally Posted by Terizent

Oh, and also, Unzen doesn't hate everybody. Why would you slander such an awesome character so?

Probably because Unzen himself says it in Chapter 18 page 16

"And even though I don't think I need to say it, I hate people!! Absolutely hate everything about them!!"

Also in Chapter 21 page 6

"No matter what else of mine breaks, I will not change my way of doing things. When tomorrow comes I'll continue saying what I've always been saying. I hate people!!"

Considering how by the end of the fight with Medaka he basically says he is still going to stick to his beliefs and Medaka didn't change them the assumption that he still feels the same is valid. Plus he is still considered an enemy of Medaka's anyway so he isn't an Akune-type that eventually switched to becoming her friend and supporting her.

Also Unzen is one of his favorite characters. I doubt he would be trying to slander him.

[Terizent]

Don't be ridiculous, Rejuvenation. There's no way Unzen could hate Yobuko or his sister. Therefore, he doesn't hate everybody.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Terizent

I'm not implying that high IQ is automatically equated with genius, but it's pretty much a damn requirement; I haven't ever heard of geniuses with an IQ of less than 80, have you? At its basest meaning, "genius" is closely related with intelligence. And Medaka does amount to something. 'Cause last time I checked, she was an invincible school council president who probably proves scientific theorems in her free time and has a 99.99% approval rating. That's a genius, if you ask me.

And it is precisely those kinds of "she's just different", common-man statements that Nishio called unsightly. If Zenkichi manages to get a 100% approval rating in the upcoming elections, are you then going to start calling him a genius? There is only one thing which distinguishes Medaka from a normal human, and that is that she is passionate. There is only one other thing which differentiates her from fellow people with character, and that is that she has been comparatively lucky. Medaka is no more a genius than you or me.

Yes, but I doubt that she could have gotten up to her current level of success without the talent that she inherently possessed. Sure, I'm familiar with the ideology of "If you try hard enough, you can do ANYTHING!" But try as they might, a person suffering from severe mental retardation cannot achieve a degree in quantum physics.

I beg to differ. Have you heard of the phenomenon of autistic savantism? Even highly handicapped or challenged individuals have developed incredible skills or abilities as a result of devoting their entire attention and efforts to something. To claim that (for example) an IQ 80 individual by default might have less to offer to the field of physics than an IQ 180 individual, couldn't be farther from the truth.

Zen's stubborn, and clinging onto a rope does not make him equal to Medaka, it just shows how hard he is willing to work towards his goals. Also, the Karate Council president, as of now, probably can't match up to Medaka anymore and it is incredibly unrealistic to assign Hinokage with the same amount of strength as well, since Hinokage's fight took place before the manga, and the Karate guy's in the beginning. Medaka's leveled up a lot higher since then.

Medaka might have levelled up, but there is nothing to say that Hinokage or Mutsue or anyone else couldn't level up as well. And rather, you're mistaken about the extent to which Medaka's strength has truly changed. The most significant developments to Medaka's strength have been about her control; from the completely out of control War God/Perses Mode, to the self-modulating/weakening Forsaken God Mode. The peak of Medaka's power still remains more or less consistent with the level of her original beast, War God Mode.

What do you mean, 'find your strengths'? It's not like people can just go rooting around their heads and then challenge her to an obscure skill. And she'd beat them anyways, since that's just who she is.

Find your strengths as in, find something you're good at and which you are passionate about, then if you consistently devote your passion and efforts towards it--by the end of your life, you will have contributed far more to that area than Medaka herself could do.

It's precisely this reality, btw, about which Oujo speaks approvingly when talking about Medaka's accomplishments. Everyone's passions, and everyone's differences, all striving to prove themselves is worth far more than a planetful of "perfect" Medakas. It was for that sake that Medaka stopped the Flask Plan.

And why must you focus on not hating her if you're on equal footing? Plenty of characters who are not up to her par admire her and have no feelings of hate towards her. On the other hand, Ajimu, who let us say is extremely close to an equal of Medaka, seems to dislike her. And in the end, Medaka has no equal, since according to WoG, she's the main character, so really, it doesn't matter whether you're equal or not. And what do you mean "a good reason to hate her"? That's like asking what a good reason for murder is.

The characters who admire Medaka are, as Nishio says, "looking up" while crying "but don't look down on us!". That is just as mistaken as hating her, and not what I'm talking about. The point is that Medaka's abilities are nothing special, and what's most important about her is her passion and her beliefs. And there is nothing objectionable about Medaka's beliefs, so there is zero reason to think of "beating" Medaka in the terms of an enemy; only instead to think of "surpassing" her as a rival or comrade/friend.

On Unzen: Unzen's core motivation is "justice", or in other words, "punishment". His perspective is borne from a hatred of humanity coming from a belief that it is fundamentally depraved (i.e. that it requires guidance, that it will destroy itself, that the dumb beasts that are humanity will fall into debauchery if not controlled). Unzen's personality, based on his abnormality, is one of looking down upon the rest of humanity as inferior to himself. However, contrastingly, this same belief gives rise to another aspect of his self--that of the "good sempai", as he is human himself. Unzen's awareness of all the foolishness of all the humans whom he hates is what gives rise to his determination to protect them and guide them on their proper paths. To Unzen, a ten year old brat lol, the entire world are his underclassmen, whom he has to properly instruct and guide (and indeed, Unzen clearly does treat Yobuko, his sister, and at times even Medaka as underclassmen whom he needs to protect).

The fact is, Unzen indeed hates all of humanity. It is simply that, being human himself, he feels he has a duty to protect them from themselves. At the beginning of the story, it was in fact Unzen who planned to take the Flask Plan down by himself. However, when Medaka defeated him, Unzen was satisfied to pass that duty onto her. Even now, however, Unzen (and the rest of the Student Committee Union) consider Medaka (and the Student Council) equals rather than superiors. That is because they are rivals sharing the duty of protecting, and encouraging growth within, the students' daily lives.

[Guernsey]

And it is precisely those kinds of "she's just different", common-man statements that Nishio called unsightly. If Zenkichi manages to get a 100% approval rating in the upcoming elections, are you then going to start calling him a genius? There is only one thing which distinguishes Medaka from a normal human, and that is that she is passionate. There is only one other thing which differentiates her from fellow people with character, and that is that she has been comparatively lucky. Medaka is no more a genius than you or me.

She sure could had fooled considering her character and her abilities. Medaka is larger than life, can 'normal' human pull all the students in the school? Even if she isn't a 'genius' per say, she does have many things that regular humans or even abnormals cannot seem to do.

[Soji]

Guernsey@ She sure suprise Najimi there O_O.Now that I think about the only two people that do this to Najimi in a way or another ar Zen and Medaka .

[Terizent]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

There is only one thing which distinguishes Medaka from a normal human, and that is that she is passionate. There is only one other thing which differentiates her from fellow people with character, and that is that she has been comparatively lucky. Medaka is no more a genius than you or me.

I did not baffle and cause the suicides of leading scientists of the state with my awesome brainpower as a child. I do not possess eidetic memory and perfect recall. I cannot overcome the combined strength of 1000 teenagers. Are you arguing that had I put my mind to it, I would have been able to acquire these skills? Medaka IS a genius. Or, since you seem to be extremely intent on defending her not-genius, we can at the very least agree that Medaka is abnormally talented, can we not?

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Have you heard of the phenomenon of autistic savantism? Even highly handicapped or challenged individuals have developed incredible skills or abilities as a result of devoting their entire attention and efforts to something. To claim that (for example) an IQ 80 individual by default might have less to offer to the field of physics than an IQ 180 individual, couldn't be farther from the truth.

Indeed, I have. I also know that many autistic savants are either A. geniuses in art, which in my opinion is not the kind of genius we are talking about, or B. people who suffer primarily from Asperger's, not something that usually causes mental retardation. And in Asperger's, a narrow and obsessive focus in one subject of interest is part of the symptoms or characteristics.

Plenty of geniuses had mental problems, but not mental retardation. For example, Tesla probably had OCD (washing hands, obsessed with the number three, etc.). Jefferson and Newton displayed many signs of Asperger's. Einstein couldn't find his way home, even though his office was something like 2 blocks away.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Find your strengths as in, find something you're good at and which you are passionate about, then if you consistently devote your passion and efforts towards it--by the end of your life, you will have contributed far more to that area than Medaka herself could do.

OK, we're never going to reach an agreement on this, because my philosophy is that there's someone always better. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't strive to succeed or anything, but I'm not the kind of person who thinks that if I work really really really hard, I'll eventually become #1. On the other hand, you seem to be repeating that passion is the most important thing of all-which, given your dislike of Zenkichi, seems odd.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

On Unzen: Unzen's core motivation is "justice", or in other words, "punishment". His perspective is borne from a hatred of humanity coming from a belief that it is fundamentally depraved (i.e. that it requires guidance, that it will destroy itself, that the dumb beasts that are humanity will fall into debauchery if not controlled). Unzen's personality, based on his abnormality, is one of looking down upon the rest of humanity as inferior to himself. However, contrastingly, this same belief gives rise to another aspect of his self--that of the "good sempai", as he is human himself. Unzen's awareness of all the foolishness of all the humans whom he hates is what gives rise to his determination to protect them and guide them on their proper paths. To Unzen, a ten year old brat lol, the entire world are his underclassmen, whom he has to properly instruct and guide (and indeed, Unzen clearly does treat Yobuko, his sister, and at times even Medaka as underclassmen whom he needs to protect).

The fact is, Unzen indeed hates all of humanity. It is simply that, being human himself, he feels he has a duty to protect them from themselves. At the beginning of the story, it was in fact Unzen who planned to take the Flask Plan down by himself. However, when Medaka defeated him, Unzen was satisfied to pass that duty onto her. Even now, however, Unzen (and the rest of the Student Committee Union) consider Medaka (and the Student Council) equals rather than superiors. That is because they are rivals sharing the duty of protecting, and encouraging growth within, the students' daily lives.

So in effect, you agree that he does not hate everybody.