Medaka Box [Manga]

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Terizent

I did not baffle and cause the suicides of leading scientists of the state with my awesome brainpower as a child. I do not possess eidetic memory and perfect recall. I cannot overcome the combined strength of 1000 teenagers. Are you arguing that had I put my mind to it, I would have been able to acquire these skills? Medaka IS a genius. Or, since you seem to be extremely intent on defending her not-genius, we can at the very least agree that Medaka is abnormally talented, can we not?

I'm arguing that if you put your mind to it, you could accomplish the same kind of things (remembering, in the first place, that for all the wild impossible things Medaka does in this story, it is an exaggerated action Shounen manga. Zenkichi, a normal, runs vertically straight up walls. You have to adjust your expectations.). Whatever talents Medaka might have, they are immaterial compared to her will to actually make use of them.

Indeed, I have. I also know that many autistic savants are either A. geniuses in art, which in my opinion is not the kind of genius we are talking about, or B. people who suffer primarily from Asperger's, not something that usually causes mental retardation. And in Asperger's, a narrow and obsessive focus in one subject of interest is part of the symptoms or characteristics.

Plenty of geniuses had mental problems, but not mental retardation. For example, Tesla probably had OCD (washing hands, obsessed with the number three, etc.). Jefferson and Newton displayed many signs of Asperger's. Einstein couldn't find his way home, even though his office was something like 2 blocks away.

What kind of genius are we talking about, then? As we've mentioned before, IQ has very little significance as a matter of what people actually accomplish with their lives. In reference to Medaka's talents, her abilities are not nearly limited to mental ones either. Why remove the subject of artistic geniuses, athletic geniuses, oratorical geniuses, etc. from the discussion? Medaka is an embodiment of talent/success in every field, so there are plenty of fields besides physics within which a person could compete with her.

Even mentally retarded people are capable of achieving something and contributing to society if they devote their whole being to something they're good at. With enough consistent effort, they could indeed challenge and surpass Medaka.

OK, we're never going to reach an agreement on this, because my philosophy is that there's someone always better. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't strive to succeed or anything, but I'm not the kind of person who thinks that if I work really really really hard, I'll eventually become #1. On the other hand, you seem to be repeating that passion is the most important thing of all-which, given your dislike of Zenkichi, seems odd.

My dislike of Zenkichi stemmed from his "unsightly" attitude of always looking up to Medaka. He was passionate, sure, not about matching up to Medaka as an equal, but about "protecting" or "defending" her like some sort of saint or righteous goddess.

There's nothing incongruent between my statement that passion is most important and the idea that there's always someone better. The simple answer is that the better people are the ones who are more passionate--namely, for most fields of achievement, not Medaka--because what Medaka is passionate about is helping people (and in that arena, honestly, I don't expect her to lose to Zenkichi). Certainly, if you are passionate about physics, you may lose to somebody who is even more passionate about physics. My point is that Medaka's talent alone, however, is not enough to put her in that position.

So in effect, you agree that he does not hate everybody.

Unzen does hate everybody (you can interpret Unzen's use of "hate" loosely, but it's still what he himself would say). Unzen simply feels he has a duty on top of that. At the core, what Unzen believes is that everybody needs to be controlled. Even if his motivation for that is to guide people onto proper, constructive paths, you cannot ignore that the starting concept Nishio used for his character was a disgust for the base nature of humanity (which I can sympathize with, which is also why from the start I was a fan of Unzen).

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I'm arguing that if you put your mind to it, you could accomplish the same kind of things (remembering, in the first place, that for all the wild impossible things Medaka does in this story, it is an exaggerated action Shounen manga. Zenkichi, a normal, runs vertically straight up walls. You have to adjust your expectations.). Whatever talents Medaka might have, they are immaterial compared to her will to actually make use of them.



What kind of genius are we talking about, then? As we've mentioned before, IQ has very little significance as a matter of what people actually accomplish with their lives. In reference to Medaka's talents, her abilities are not nearly limited to mental ones either. Why remove the subject of artistic geniuses, athletic geniuses, oratorical geniuses, etc. from the discussion? Medaka is an embodiment of talent/success in every field, so there are plenty of fields besides physics within which a person could compete with her.

Even mentally retarded people are capable of achieving something and contributing to society if they devote their whole being to something they're good at. With enough consistent effort, they could indeed challenge and surpass Medaka.



My dislike of Zenkichi stemmed from his "unsightly" attitude of always looking up to Medaka. He was passionate, sure, not about matching up to Medaka as an equal, but about "protecting" or "defending" her like some sort of saint or righteous goddess.

There's nothing incongruent between my statement that passion is most important and the idea that there's always someone better. The simple answer is that the better people are the ones who are more passionate--namely, for most fields of achievement, not Medaka--because what Medaka is passionate about is helping people (and in that arena, honestly, I don't expect her to lose to Zenkichi). Certainly, if you are passionate about physics, you may lose to somebody who is even more passionate about physics. My point is that Medaka's talent alone, however, is not enough to put her in that position.



Unzen does hate everybody (you can interpret Unzen's use of "hate" loosely, but it's still what he himself would say). Unzen simply feels he has a duty on top of that. At the core, what Unzen believes is that everybody needs to be controlled. Even if his motivation for that is to guide people onto proper, constructive paths, you cannot ignore that the starting concept Nishio used for his character was a disgust for the base nature of humanity (which I can sympathize with, which is also why from the start I was a fan of Unzen).

What is this shit. Last I heard normal humans can't acquire abilities like "The End" without completely external influences e.g Shiranui. That alone makes the shit she does impossible to even regular humans in her universe. What the hell happened to your logic? Did it just disapear. I don't get it.

Well someone may be able to match her in one tiny specific field they wouldn't be able to achieve in even remotely similar timespan that she was able to do so, while she would have similar proficiency of everything else under the Sun.. She's broken ridiculously broken, even in her own universe where broken abilities are the norm. What worse she has natural shounen protagonist ability to pull shit completely out of her ass. I wouldn't be surprised if it was later later reavealed that she was an all knowing all powerful being that just decided to play around with mere mortals the way shit is going.

[kenjtr]

Well medaka is really acting weird now , i mean she was weird but not that much weird . Pulling thousand humans then dance like its the most normal thing in the world also why is everyone going along with medakas selfishness , if i were there i would ignore medakas ridiculus game .

My idea is when medaka was doing great with zenkichis support just remember how she stood on water in the past , i think even if zenkichi didnt throwed that footing she was able do that trick . Medaka is capable of dong everything she needs no one and after everyone left her , she looks creepy because of that .

Lets think why medaka is happy being alone ; medaka is happy being alone cause she can do everything herself and when people takes too much time with simple problems she gets bored from watching them , when zenkichi couldnt figure out a simple problem she got bored from him instantly .

i also understand why medaka needed zenkichi ; its so simple actually zenkichi is so much holding back medaka and other people see her like human and dont disgust from her . When medaka is alone she is capable creepy girl but when she has zenkichi she looks human .

From now on everyone will start to hate medaka cause she can do anything and she has totally no empaty with people , its funny that all zenkichi needs to win the election was letting medaka be alone and let her self destruct

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

What is this shit. Last I heard normal humans can't acquire abilities like "The End" without completely external influences e.g Shiranui. That alone makes the shit she does impossible to even regular humans in her universe. What the hell happened to your logic? Did it just disapear. I don't get it.

Actually, most abnormals (and all Minuses) appear to have acquired their ability somewhat randomly at some point after they were born. If abnormalities exist in that universe, then it is not impossible for anyone to acquire one. However, abnormalities in themselves don't even particularly mean anything. Abnormalities are just strange singularities in chance or fate; for most of the abnormals we are aware of (i.e. the loners who don't even bother going to school), they have very little to do with any sort of self-realization or success (rather, during the Flask Plan arc, the story seemed to say that abnormalities prevented people from doing what they truly wanted to).

The End, in the first place, is simply a very high-level modelling ability. Everyone possesses that on some level--the capacity to learn by copying others. The End only causes Medaka to grow when she has something to copy; meanwhile, so long as Medaka exists, anyone can try to copy her. I don't think there's anything to say that normal humans in Medaka's universe couldn't eventually copy Medaka's abilities so long as they tried hard enough at it. Zenkichi learning to walk up walls from observing Miyakanoujou is exactly an example of this sort of process.

Well someone may be able to match her in one tiny specific field they wouldn't be able to achieve in even remotely similar timespan that she was able to do so, while she would have similar proficiency of everything else under the Sun.. She's broken ridiculously broken, even in her own universe where broken abilities are the norm. What worse she has natural shounen protagonist ability to pull shit completely out of her ass. I wouldn't be surprised if it was later later reavealed that she was an all knowing all powerful being that just decided to play around with mere mortals the way shit is going.

Medaka's proficiency in everything is not unlimited. As stated, The End is a modelling ability--basically, Medaka's proficiencies in various subjects is only a tiny bit higher than the best she has seen of what other humans can do. If Medaka were, right now, to devote her time to studying physics without any passion for it, she would not get any farther than a little better than the other physicists of her time. Medaka is far from "all-powerful". The only reason she has grown so much and is so strong currently is because of the constant battles and competition she has been engaged in with countless worthy/extraordinary opponents who have challenged her as of late.

In essence, by copying others, Medaka grows. Then, by copying her, Medaka's rivals grow. Surpassing Medaka and making new breakthroughs, those rivals give Medaka the opportunity to grow again. And thus the cycle continues. Medaka's strength is completely dependant on the people who reach out to her and surround her. She is not broken, and not a negation of other people's effort, passions and abilities, at all.

(That cycle itself is also why Medaka is eminently suited, beyond anything else, to encouraging other people's growth. "Medaka's purpose is to help others." Well, Zenkichi certainly seems to have had that right.)

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Actually, most abnormals (and all Minuses) appear to have acquired their ability somewhat randomly at some point after they were born. If abnormalities exist in that universe, then it is not impossible for anyone to acquire one. However, abnormalities in themselves don't even particularly mean anything. Abnormalities are just strange singularities in chance or fate; for most of the abnormals we are aware of (i.e. the loners who don't even bother going to school), they have very little to do with any sort of self-realization or success (rather, during the Flask Plan arc, the story seemed to say that abnormalities prevented people from doing what they truly wanted to).

The End, in the first place, is simply a very high-level modelling ability. Everyone possesses that on some level--the capacity to learn by copying others. The End only causes Medaka to grow when she has something to copy; meanwhile, so long as Medaka exists, anyone can try to copy her. I don't think there's anything to say that normal humans in Medaka's universe couldn't eventually copy Medaka's abilities so long as they tried hard enough at it. Zenkichi learning to walk up walls from observing Miyakanoujou is exactly an example of this sort of process.



Medaka's proficiency in everything is not unlimited. As stated, The End is a modelling ability--basically, Medaka's proficiencies in various subjects is only a tiny bit higher than the best she has seen of what other humans can do. If Medaka were, right now, to devote her time to studying physics without any passion for it, she would not get any farther than a little better than the other physicists of her time. Medaka is far from "all-powerful". The only reason she has grown so much and is so strong currently is because of the constant battles and competition she has been engaged in with countless worthy/extraordinary opponents who have challenged her as of late.

In essence, by copying others, Medaka grows. Then, by copying her, Medaka's rivals grow. Surpassing Medaka and making new breakthroughs, those rivals give Medaka the opportunity to grow again. And thus the cycle continues. Medaka's strength is completely dependant on the people who reach out to her and surround her. She is not broken, and not a negation of other people's effort, passions and abilities, at all.

(That cycle itself is also why Medaka is eminently suited, beyond anything else, to encouraging other people's growth. "Medaka's purpose is to help others." Well, Zenkichi certainly seems to have had that right.)

Yeah that's not in any way comparable. Zenkichi can match whatever any abnormals can do physically, which had nothing to do with their abilities in the first place anyway he has not shown anything close to being able to copy their abilities themeselves, e.g the healing ability electricity ability etc. He can't copy those abilities naturally and neither can anyone else except for Medaka.

I don't even know where you get these crazy ideas from when everything in the manga quite litterally contradicts what you said. Abnormalities are inate, the abnormals simply don't know they have them or they grow with time. Absolutely nothing whatsoever hints at their ability to be acquired. Especially the crazy ones.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Yeah that's not in any way comparable. Zenkichi can match whatever any abnormals can do physically, which had nothing to do with their abilities in the first place anyway he has not shown anything close to being able to copy their abilities themeselves, e.g the healing ability electricity ability etc. He can't copy those abilities naturally and neither can anyone else except for Medaka.

I don't even know where you get these crazy ideas from when everything in the manga quite litterally contradicts what you said. Abnormalities are inate, the abnormals simply don't know they have them or they grow with time. Absolutely nothing whatsoever hints at their ability to be acquired. Especially the crazy ones.

Abnormalities "awaken" like Takachiho's or Miyakonojou's pretty much with no discernible cause. They are "innate" in the sense of being connected to an abnormal's personality, but it's not like there's any sort of tool by which you could say "this person will or will not become an abnormal" at any point before it actually occurs. Becoming an abnormal is pretty much a matter of completely random chance; there's basically no way you could say of any random normal out there that they're not gonna wake up suddenly an abnormal the next day.

This issue of abnormalities, though, like I said, isn't even relevant. Abnormalities don't help anybody accomplish anything because abnormality is inherently beyond an abnormal's control. The reason that Hakoniwa Academy's abnormals turned to the Flask Plan in the first place was because rather than controlling their abnormalities, their abnormalities were controlling them. Having a statistically improbable abnormality or not has nothing to do with a person's ability to realize their own dreams or desires.

In order to accomplish something, you need to have a goal in the first place. The most important aspect to actually doing something is always passion--human will. For anybody, including Medaka, the journey to success at what you are truly aiming for is an lengthy path requiring tons of effort and plenty of luck. There is zero sense in complaining that she has it easier than others--for Medaka's goal, that of helping everyone become happy, Medaka puts in just as much effort as anyone else (or rather, in all likelihood, actually more).

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Abnormalities "awaken" like Takachiho's or Miyakonojou's pretty much with no discernible cause. They are "innate" in the sense of being connected to an abnormal's personality, but it's not like there's any sort of tool by which you could say "this person will or will not become an abnormal" at any point ever before it actually occurs. Becoming an abnormal is pretty much a matter of completely random chance; there's basically no way you could say of any random normal out there that they're not gonna wake up suddenly an abnormal the next day.

This issue of abnormalities, though, like I said, isn't even relevant. Abnormalities don't help anybody accomplish anything because abnormality is inherently beyond an abnormal's control. The reason that Hakoniwa Academy's abnormals turned to the Flask Plan in the first place was because rather than controlling their abnormalities, their abnormalities were controlling them. Having a statistically improbable abnormality or not has nothing to do with a person's ability to realize their own dreams or desires.

In order to accomplish something, you need to have a goal in the first place. The most important aspect to actually doing something is always passion--human will. For anybody, including Medaka, the journey to success at what you are truly aiming for is an lengthy path requiring tons of effort and plenty of luck. There is zero sense in complaining that she has it easier than others--for Medaka's goal, that of helping everyone become happy, Medaka puts in just as much effort as anyone else (or rather, in all likelihood, actually more).

Actually there is a measure of abnormality it's called luck, and abnormals are ridiculously lucky the more lucky you are the more abnormal you are, hence the that generation door in the flask plan, only those with a sufficiently high luck could pass through, natural minus's are ridiculously unlucky, the more minus you are the more unlucky you are. Normals have are neither particularily lucky nor unlucky.

Medaka's conversion abilities are her own everything else is seemingly indistinguishable from "The End", plus you have her in-universe main character hax. To say that what she does is achievable by normal humans by themselves purely through hard work is fallacious at best. She's extremely lucky to a ridiculous degree, this has been beaten over our heads in the manga over and over again. While her luck has no effect on her conversion abilities which are entirely her own, it does play massively in her fights as her does the ability "The End". It's probably why Zenkichi winning the election would be such a loss for her as it's the seemingly the only thing she's good at that the "The End" has no influence in.

I'm not talking about goals here that's not what this arguement is about. It's about whether someone without naturally without god-like abilities can acquire those god-like abilities of someone that is born with them, if their not in this universe then Medaka's abilities aren't achieveable by normal humans. Your right in the whole Medaka works hard in regarding converting people it's just questionable whether she does for everything else since it prety much comes naturally without any conscious effort.

[kenjtr]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Actually there is a measure of abnormality it's called luck, and abnormals are ridiculously lucky the more lucky you are the more abnormal you are, hence the that generation door in the flask plan, only those with a sufficiently high luck could pass through, natural minus's are ridiculously unlucky, the more minus you are the more unlucky you are. Normals have are neither particularily lucky nor unlucky.

Medaka's conversion abilities are her own everything else is seemingly indistinguishable from "The End", plus you have her in-universe main character hax. To say that what she does is achievable by normal humans by themselves purely through hard work is fallacious at best. She's extremely lucky to a ridiculous degree, this has been beaten over our heads in the manga over and over again. While her luck has no effect on her conversion abilities which are entirely her own, it does play massively in her fights as her does the ability "The End". It's probably why Zenkichi winning the election would be such a loss for her as it's the seemingly the only thing she's good at that the "The End" has no influence in.

I'm not talking about goals here that's not what this arguement is about. It's about whether someone without naturally without god-like abilities can acquire those god-like abilities of someone that is born with them, if their not in this universe then Medaka's abilities aren't achieveable by normal humans. Your right in the whole Medaka works hard in regarding converting people it's just questionable whether she does for everything else since it prety much comes naturally without any conscious effort.

Totally agree abnormaities can be meassured with dices cause the more impossible the result means more lucky you are , for example what is percent of all dices standing 1/10.000.000.000 probably more then that so what ever medaka does she will get this result and Sol falling is saying you can compete with that ? But you can win against unzen or at lest take a draw from him cause its possible to get all the dices 6 but even this have probability like 1/10.000.000 so youll loose 9.999.999 times to unzen to draw or 1 game .

As for kumagawa he aims for that 1 percent and win but for medaka gap is so big even if he aims for that weakness he still loose , same can be said for ajimu too . Thats also the reason why zenkichi always loses medaka no matter how he struggles , medaka gets 1/10.000.000.000 result without even trying . Thats also the reason why medaka is weaker with more person near her cause their less luck affect medakas enormous luck and make it drop to so if medaka is surrounded by a big group she can loose because everyones crappy lucks holding her .

After zenkichi and others left medakas side her luck returned 1/10.000.000.000 so now she looks like a creepy person who ca do anything , eventually people will start discust from her lke how it happened in the past . Zenkichi also has really bad luck to hold down medaka this much cause just after he left , people started to put distance between medaka and themselves . I also understand why medaka likes loneliness , normally looking a problem which you know the answer but waitng it to be solved by an idiot is annoying . Well medaka will get stronger more and more and maybe we will see the peak of her abnormality since no one is holding her back also when medaka was throwing dices people was holding her now that no one hold her i wonder how abnormal result she will get . Maybe dices will make a tower on their corners

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Actually there is a measure of abnormality it's called luck, and abnormals are ridiculously lucky the more lucky you are the more abnormal you are, hence the that generation door in the flask plan, only those with a sufficiently high luck could pass through, natural minus's are ridiculously unlucky, the more minus you are the more unlucky you are. Normals have are neither particularily lucky nor unlucky.

Abnormalities are not a phenomenon regarding luck. They are a phenomenon regarding chance or fate. Yes, abnormalities cause highly improbable things to happen around abnormals, but in no way are those improbabilities necessarily advantageous to what the abnormal wanted. Takachiho, for example, had the highly improbable abnormality that things would be unable to touch him. If Takachiho's desire was to be touched, then his abnormality made him unlucky, rather than lucky.

Medaka's conversion abilities are her own everything else is seemingly indistinguishable from "The End", plus you have her in-universe main character hax. To say that what she does is achievable by normal humans by themselves purely through hard work is fallacious at best. She's extremely lucky to a ridiculous degree, this has been beaten over our heads in the manga over and over again. While her luck has no effect on her conversion abilities which are entirely her own, it does play massively in her fights as her does the ability "The End". It's probably why Zenkichi winning the election would be such a loss for her as it's the seemingly the only thing she's good at that the "The End" has no influence in.

So basically, you're going back on your earlier post then? And I quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

The vast, vast majority of genius' end up living a life a mediocrity. Why because, they rely on that talent and don't work hard to improve and surpass it and so those that have worked hard eventually surpass them. If your a genius at maths at age 15, if you don't work at it it's very likely you'll be surprassed by age 20 maybe less and so on.

Quite often people simply lable people genius' because they simply can't fathom the work put it and choose not to. They set barriers and excuses as to why they cannot do those things, when in all honest if they really, really tried they probably could do it, or at least something comparable in scale. Really inate intelligience simply a matter of persepction, certain people simply grasp certain things easier than others due to life experiences and inate dispositions. No one is all knowing so we all have various views and persepctions of the world around us, these perspections allow us to grasp certain things easier than other things. Really that's all intelligience is.

If you do, I guess it can't really be helped but this was pretty much the point of me starting this line of conversation. Nishio's writings on genius are an attempt to show us that hard work, passion, luck, etc. are the real factors behind people's achievements. Not necessarily to say that inborn talents are irrelevant, but that talent alone can hardly be recognized and often doesn't amount to anything; and that the "geniuses" who do end up being consistently recognized in fact only reached their accomplishments via genuine hard work and struggle like any other person.

On the matter of luck, I have already talked about how luck is an inherent nature of our existence. Billions of people are born into destitution or mediocrity, while fortune is the blessing of the chosen few. However, that is why it is important for the "unlucky" to fight against their destiny. And similarly Medaka, realizing she has been blessed by luck, has devoted her entire life towards building up the dreams of others.

I'm not talking about goals here that's not what this arguement is about. It's about whether someone without naturally without god-like abilities can acquire those god-like abilities of someone that is born with them, if their not in this universe then Medaka's abilities aren't achieveable by normal humans. Your right in the whole Medaka works hard in regarding converting people it's just questionable whether she does for everything else since it prety much comes naturally without any conscious effort.

Abilities are meaningless without goals. I am talking precisely about goals. Whatever abilities Medaka has, they are still pitiful in the face of her grand dream of helping every human realize their happiness. To realize her own happiness, Medaka faces a challenge just as difficult as Kumagawa's quest to win, or any other human's struggle for the realization of their own dream.

If anybody's goal is to match up against the "talented" Medaka and defeat her at something, then indeed it is possible! The student council trainees have already given us one concrete example. Zenkichi's determination to match up against Medaka in the elections is another one. All of Medaka's individual proficiencies remain in the range of what is possible to surpass for other humans in her universe, and they always will. Beyond that, because Medaka's goal is to help people, there is no point to Medaka even having those abilities unless people precisely step up to that challenge.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Abnormalities are not a phenomenon regarding luck. They are a phenomenon regarding chance or fate. Yes, abnormalities cause highly improbable things to happen around abnormals, but in no way are those improbabilities necessarily advantageous to what the abnormal wanted. Takachiho, for example, had the highly improbable abnormality that things would be unable to touch him. If Takachiho's desire was to be touched, then his abnormality made him unlucky, rather than lucky.



So basically, you're going back on your earlier post then? And I quote:


If you do, I guess it can't really be helped but this was pretty much the point of me starting this line of conversation. Nishio's writings on genius are an attempt to show us that hard work, passion, luck, etc. are the real factors behind people's achievements. Not necessarily to say that inborn talents are irrelevant, but that talent alone can hardly be recognized and often doesn't amount to anything; and that the "geniuses" who do end up being consistently recognized in fact only reached their accomplishments via genuine hard work and struggle like any other person.

On the matter of luck, I have already talked about how luck is an inherent nature of our existence. Billions of people are born into destitution or mediocrity, while fortune is the blessing of the chosen few. However, that is why it is important for the "unlucky" to fight against their destiny. And similarly Medaka, realizing she has been blessed by luck, has devoted her entire life towards building up the dreams of others.



Abilities are meaningless without goals. I am talking precisely about goals. Whatever abilities Medaka has, they are still pitiful in the face of her grand dream of helping every human realize their happiness. To realize her own happiness, Medaka faces a challenge just as difficult as Kumagawa's quest to win, or any other human's struggle for the realization of their own dream.

If anybody's goal is to match up against the "talented" Medaka and defeat her at something, then indeed it is possible! The student council trainees have already given us one concrete example. Zenkichi's determination to match up against Medaka in the elections is another one. All of Medaka's individual proficiencies remain in the range of what is possible to surpass for other humans in her universe, and they always will. Beyond that, because Medaka's goal is to help people, there is no point to Medaka even having those abilities unless people precisely step up to that challenge.

Yeah but this entire manga is highly illogical. People aren't born in the real world with abilities that are completely impossible for others to do within sufficient hard work. This is the norm in this manga making your point entirely irrelevant and pointless. If that is Nisio's point in this manga then he failed badly... In fact I can't even possibly think of a way in which he could fail more to get that point across. That's why i doubt that's his point and he is most likely going for something else entirely. I wouldn't be shocked if you were the only person that got that moral from this manga it's that strange.

I mean really how did "The End" not factor into her scoring so well in her test results, her sports accolades and practically everything else she did that does not include helping people. Those are all valid achievements that people wanted, that she most probably didn't work particular hard for. Hence people calling her genius. Heck the ONLY thing she's not considered a genius in is helping and understanding people, hence why Aijimu thinks Zenkichi can win the election.

Medaka is more of a true genius than any of her real world counterparts, which is Nisio's point. It'd be quite silly if it wasn't.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Yeah but this entire manga is highly illogical. People aren't born in the real world with abilities that are completely impossible for others to do within sufficient hard work. This is the norm in this manga making your point entirely irrelevant and pointless. If that is Nisio's point in this manga then he failed badly... In fact I can't even possibly think of a way in which he could fail more to get that point across. That's why i doubt that's his point and he is most likely going for something else entirely. I wouldn't be shocked if you were the only person that got that moral from this manga it's that strange.

What point do you think Nishio could possibly be trying to make with the creation of such an overpowered character as Medaka then? In fact, it's the exaggerated degree of Medaka's talents which makes this point I am talking about. Saying "effort and passion can surpass a realistic, reasonable amount of talent" is pretty much meaningless and falls within the "that's just common sense" line of thought you were talking about either. The overpoweredness of Medaka is precisely what makes the unexpected true moral of the story something worth saying.

I mean really how did "The End" not factor into her scoring so well in her test results, her sports accolades and practically everything else she did that does not include helping people. Those are all valid achievements that people wanted, that she most probably didn't work particular hard for. Hence people calling her genius. Heck the ONLY thing she's not considered a genius in is helping and understanding people, hence why Aijimu thinks Zenkichi can win the election.

Medaka is more of a true genius than any of her real world counterparts, which is Nisio's point. It'd be quite silly if it wasn't.

That's the issue though. You can say that Medaka didn't work particularly long for her achievements. But there's no way you could say she does not work hard. Medaka has spent days reading entire libraries of reference books from the age of two; she sits for longer at her desk doing ten times as much paperwork as the rest of the Student Council; she refuses to take breaks, working 365 days of the year to help other people as part of her motto. If you talk about combat ability, I'm sure that within this manga the one who's spent the most time and effort getting beaten bloody in fights against other characters is none other than Medaka herself. Part of Medaka's characterization is that she always goes all out and doesn't know how to hold back--that means that Medaka is expending her maximum degree of effort towards improving herself, all the time. Her ability to do this can be called a talent in itself--but there is no argument to be made in this series that Medaka finds it easier to learn things; only that she is more capable of working ridiculously hard for that purpose.

Saying that Medaka does not work hard to accomplish the things she does is genuinely a fallacy; and while Medaka's individual accomplishments might be something people are jealous of, there is utterly no point in saying "oh I want to be the country's best for high school mock exams and the intramural national swimming champion and the winner of Japan's annual high school chess tournament", or something like that, unless you are only interested in prestige and jerking off over how superior you are. For any normal person, even just one of those accomplishments should be enough, and the thing is--with all the number of activities that Medaka dabbles in and experiments with--there's no way that she can actively keep up with all of them. In fact, it is probably actually a simple matter to surpass/keep up with Medaka in any subject you are actually dedicated to, because if you are able to expend more effort over time towards it than Medaka is, that is all that Medaka's ability will really amount to (the ability to expend large amounts of effort over a short period of time).

If you want to look towards "geniuses" in this series, point to characters like Ajimu or Tachiarai, whose characters are about achieving things while avoiding effort. For the argument that effort is what it takes to become strong, Medaka is actually one of the examples of that within this story.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What point do you think Nishio could possibly be trying to make with the creation of such an overpowered character as Medaka then? In fact, it's the exaggerated degree of Medaka's talents which makes this point I am talking about. Saying "effort and passion can surpass a realistic, reasonable amount of talent" is pretty much meaningless and falls within the "that's just common sense" line of thought you were talking about either. The overpoweredness of Medaka is precisely what makes the unexpected true moral of the story something worth saying.



That's the issue though. You can say that Medaka didn't work particularly long for her achievements. But there's no way you could say she does not work hard. Medaka has spent days reading entire libraries of reference books from the age of two; she sits for longer at her desk doing ten times as much paperwork as the rest of the Student Council; she refuses to take breaks, working 365 days of the year to help other people as part of her motto. If you talk about combat ability, I'm sure that within this manga the one who's spent the most time and effort getting beaten bloody in fights against other characters is none other than Medaka herself. Part of Medaka's characterization is that she always goes all out and doesn't know how to hold back--that means that Medaka is expending her maximum degree of effort towards improving herself, all the time. Her ability to do this can be called a talent in itself--but there is no argument to be made in this series that Medaka finds it easier to learn things; only that she is more capable of working ridiculously hard for that purpose.

Saying that Medaka does not work hard to accomplish the things she does is genuinely a fallacy; and while Medaka's individual accomplishments might be something people are jealous of, there is utterly no point in saying "oh I want to be the country's best for high school mock exams and the intramural national swimming champion and the winner of Japan's annual high school chess tournament", or something like that, unless you are only interested in prestige and jerking off over how superior you are. For any normal person, even just one of those accomplishments should be enough, and the thing is--with all the number of activities that Medaka dabbles in and experiments with--there's no way that she can actively keep up with all of them. In fact, it is probably actually a simple matter to surpass/keep up with Medaka in any subject you are actually dedicated to, because if you are able to expend more effort over time towards it than Medaka is, that is all that Medaka's ability will really amount to (the ability to expend large amounts of effort over a short period of time).

If you want to look towards "geniuses" in this series, point to characters like Ajimu or Tachiarai, whose characters are about achieving things while avoiding effort. For the argument that effort is what it takes to become strong, Medaka is actually one of the examples of that within this story.

No Medaka is a genius there's no way around it and your deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Her ability gives INSTANT MASTERY of anything she does. If that is not genius that lacks effort what flying hell is. It's not even conscious, she does it whether she likes it or not. Hence why they had to make the effort to keep her away from certain people so she doesn't simply automatically learn their abilities.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

No Medaka is a genius there's no way around it and your deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Her ability gives INSTANT MASTERY of anything she does. If that is not genius that lacks effort what flying hell is. It's not even conscious, she does it whether she likes it or not. Hence why they had to make the effort to keep her away from certain people so she doesn't simply automatically learn their abilities.

Medaka had to train for two days (or more) to master Forsaken God Mode. Weeks to months after she first witnessed Hinokage's Theme Song skill, she still couldn't use her True Kurokami phantom move more than three times within the same day. Medaka's mastery is not instant, it is simply very fast. While Medaka's "perfect observation" grants her understanding of a move after the first or second time seeing it, she requires effort/practice to actually put it into use. Maguro's assessment of Medaka's abilities/weaknesses is suspect in the first place; his perspective, skewed by his obsessive love for his little sisters, is the one that originally pushed for Zenkichi to become Medaka's "knight" or "protector" (which we know was unnecessary).

[kenjtr]

unzen is a genious abnormal who spent 1 year to master to throw super plastic balls and meda done same thing just from seeing once in the same day , if thats not an advantage nothing is .

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by kenjtr

unzen is a genious abnormal who spent 1 year to master to throw super plastic balls and meda done same thing just from seeing once in the same day , if thats not an advantage nothing is .

Medaka didn't even calculate the balls' trajectory when she used it though. She basically copied Unzen's motion, but not his actual skill.

[kenjtr]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka didn't even calculate the balls' trajectory when she used it though. She basically copied Unzen's motion, but not his actual skill.

calculating the balls trajectory was unzens speciality but he practiced throwing the ball for one year .
http://www.mangareader.net/215-31797...hapter-18.html
here you can see in this page .

[Terizent]

So now we're back to arguing what the definition of hard work is? Why is it that these topics get recycled every couple of months or so? What's next, veiled character bashing?

Anyways, I'm of the opinion that Medaka doesn't work hard, at least, in a normal sense. Normally, you'd work hard towards a goal that is difficult to achieve for a considerable amount of time; in other words, those who are unusually skilled in touch typing and calculation shouldn't have to "work hard" to become secretaries. The people who work hard are those who find their work challenging, the ones who are smarter don't expend nearly as much time or effort, but still often produce better than average work. Anyone who's a student can corroborate this. If the activity is easy for you to do, you're not working hard at it, even if you're doing it 24/7.

But Medaka doesn't really need to input effort to learn much of her skills, as shown when she spontaneously spawns the Five Forks skill because...she heard a description of them. And taking just two days to master an impossibly haxed skill that makes you functionally unbeatable sounds a lot less than normal. Same with the fact that she was able to understand very advanced science and mathematics as a child. Or like how she's able to read and remember everything she's ever read. Usually, you hear stuff like 'I obtained [insert cool skillset] after TEN years of training!'

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka had to train for two days (or more) to master Forsaken God Mode. Weeks to months after she first witnessed Hinokage's Theme Song skill, she still couldn't use her True Kurokami phantom move more than three times within the same day. Medaka's mastery is not instant, it is simply very fast. While Medaka's "perfect observation" grants her understanding of a move after the first or second time seeing it, she requires effort/practice to actually put it into use. Maguro's assessment of Medaka's abilities/weaknesses is suspect in the first place; his perspective, skewed by his obsessive love for his little sisters, is the one that originally pushed for Zenkichi to become Medaka's "knight" or "protector" (which we know was unnecessary).

None of that changes my point, and Medaka didn't train to master Forsaken God mode, she herself said she had limiters which prevented her using her full power which she went to get removed, she was simply a little rusty, but really that's nothing. Why are you assuming there was months or even weeks between the minus 13 arc and now and seriously not a single piece of what you said hints the slightest at any real hard work, your simply pointing out a few weaknesses in her learning abilities, an unconscious ability, none that implies she was working hard to master them. simple that it took her ability a few days to get to grip. Did at any point you see her actually training to acquire or master the abilities she acquired, no but there's several times where's she shown to acquire them without any effort what so ever.

Just give it up your wrong about this one deal with it.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

None of that changes my point, and Medaka didn't train to master Forsaken God mode, she herself said she had limiters which prevented her using her full power which she went to get removed, she was simply a little rusty, but really that's nothing. Why are you assuming there was months or even weeks between the minus 13 arc and now and seriously not a single piece of what you said hints the slightest at any real hard work, your simply pointing out a few weaknesses in her learning abilities, an unconscious ability, none that implies she was working hard to master them. simple that it took her ability a few days to get to grip. Did at any point you see her actually training to acquire or master the abilities she acquired, no but there's several times where's she shown to acquire them without any effort what so ever.

Just give it up your wrong about this one deal with it.

Forsaken God Mode is the one which makes her weaker than her opponents. Nothing to do with limiters. She specifically had a two day training camp after the conclusion of the Minus Arc to complete that ability. As for there being a period of weeks to months between Medaka seeing Hinokage's Theme Song and the Medatrial at the end of Medaka's orienteering event, in the first place each of the Student Council Election battles were separated by a period of two weeks. Hinokage's match was the Vice President battle, so not even counting the aftermath period following Kumagawa's defeat and the arrival of the successor trainees, that's a minimum of two weeks right there.

Medaka has had two explicit training periods, notwithstanding her obviously frequent offscreen activities like her regular sparring matches (which Akune mentioned) with Mutsue. The first was her 24 hour rehabilitation she underwent with Zenkichi under Maguro's guidance at the start of the series, which gave Zenkichi the ability to resist Miyakonojou's Weighted Words. Since the point of going to Maguro was to increase their strength as much as possible within the 24 hours they had available, Medaka obviously had to work just as hard as Zenkichi did over that period. Second, Medaka clearly stated to Ajimu that the Devilize training which allowed her to complete her Forsaken God Mode required her efforts over two days. I hardly think even most of us have gone out of our way to go through full 24 or 48 hour training camps, so the idea that Medaka never puts in just as much effort as a normal human is clearly fully bullshit.

I've already blatantly demonstrated that Medaka's growth abilities aren't instantaneous. That makes any of your claims about "oh, Medaka learned Aka's healing ability just by hearing about it" completely irrelevant, because on the whole Medaka accomplishes far more than any other person in terms of constantly improving herself and growing her abilities. The only way this could be possible, evidenced clearly in Medaka's characterization within the story itself, is if Medaka is working hard and applying effort to various activities all the time. This point has been emphasized numerous times within the story: that Medaka is like a machine; that she does not rest. The idea that effort is not involved in Medaka's growth and accomplishments is simply completely blind.

[Franckie]

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

Spoiler:

I hope Zenkichi gives up on Medaka and moves on to someone who'll actually reciprocate his feelings.

Seriously, Medaka's dealt with all kinds of people, getting stronger as a result. She has an army of people who want to beat her, and we all know that's never going to happen. I dunno if Zen will be any different.

She's all about saving people and making them happy, but that's not what's happnening here. She doesn't want to make Zen happy, she wants to fight him, she wants to make herself happy. Does she realize that she's going against what she says is her purpose in life? She "reforms" her enemies, and Zen has become her enemy so he can get Medaka to love him. What would reforming Zen mean? That Zen is wrong for loving her? That he should accept that she'll never love him?

I wish Zen would just drop Medaka and find someone else. Which makes me think.....

I wonder how she'd feel if Zen gave up? She's said that Zen is the person she's always wanted to fight, and we all know that there's more than just rivalry between them. What it is exactly I'm not sure, sure as hell isn't love on her part, but it isn't just rivalry. How would she take it if someone up and decided that she wasn't worth the effort or the struggle anymore? She doesn't understand people's hearts, so I wonder how someone resigning any and all feelings they had about her affect Medaka?

The author could very well do something similar to what you're suggesting. Right now "conflict" is hardly sporting for what's going on between Medaka and Zenkichi; the phrase "friendly competition" is more appropriate. There's no red meat to their dispute, hence the author bringing in those three gals to wreck some havoc.

Something needs to happen to spice the story up between the two main leads. Judging by Zenkichi's desire to beat her in an election with 100% of the vote means he'll need to win Medaka's vote, and the probable manner that'll happen is by having Zenkichi defeat her in a fight. The story will make it clear that Zenkichi would have won except at the last minute he tosses in the towel, depriving Medaka of the defeat she desires. Somehow this leads to her enlightenment with her understanding "defeat".

A price will have to be paid though for motivating Zenkichi to fight her 100%, which he's only done so far against Kumagawa. Judging by the relevation of Medaka killing someone, it is possible she will attack someone close to Zenkichi (e.g. Tsurubami) in order to motivate Zenkichi to ante his game. Ajimu has hinted that Zenkichi's negative emotions are suppressed, so cue the Super Saiyan moment when Zenkichi believes Medaka went overboard.

Naturally their relationship will be patched up by the end but these developments alone aren't enough to spark a romantic relationship between the two. I'll be fairly surprised if that type of relationship occurs considering the severe lack of development between the two thus far.

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Perhaps Medaka never really had any romantic interest in the first place. Medaka loves Zenikichi like a friend and/or possible rival but never in a romantic way. That is what I think.

She did tell Akune once she had no interest in pursuing that kind of relationship.