2010-08-11, 08:28 | Link #941 | ||||||||||||
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But let's try including it anyway: Except for the Gauntlet, which may be made of better material (at least it is hard and is a primarily fend-off attack means), the left arm's BJ cloth had been blown clean off, as had apparently some of the cloth from the back. It'll seem that the hit occured on the arm, and because the yield was small, the arm successfully shielded the rest of the body. Just like the Miriage said - mage alone (at least of Subaru's approximate level or lower ) would be screwed. Quote:
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Besides, if a S-rank mage seriously wants to attack a A-rank unison device, its attackers won't have to make the damage at like 10cm distance... Quote:
Nanoha, same thing. She was just "slightly less capable". In Japanese, actually slightly "dulled", which is not even a power issue but a response issue. Implication: Field was there, shanker just went clean through. Quote:
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And what happened to such factors as for example, preparation time in deciding which attack to employ? IN short, it is extremely hasty to just make the conclusion you did. Quote:
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2010-08-11, 08:55 | Link #942 | ||
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A,d well, Drones seem to be kinda like single use weapons Quote:
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2010-08-11, 09:40 | Link #943 | ||
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Besides, Subaru won't be the first kid to realize that skin grows tougher and less sensitive as you get bigger, perhaps the change is more dramatic for cyborgs (part of the genetic engineering they mentioned)? Quote:
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2010-08-11, 11:17 | Link #944 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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There is a fine difference between pointing out flaws of the series, and ignoring the likely, logical explanations in favor of bitching. I've pointed out a few flaws myself, but I'm not going so far as to proclaim:
The TSAB are idiots (they're not) Barrier Jackets are useless (lots of proof they're not) Mass-based weapons are somehow better than magic (all evidence points to no) Everything that isn't directly explained, must have a non-magical explanation (um, why?) Pointing out of flaws is okay. Grilling the entire series because nothing makes sense and all the characters have a box of rocks for brains... is pushing it. Especially since, with a little thought, you can put together magical reasons for why the vast majority makes sense. Maybe some people get off on calling the entire series flawed and can still somehow enjoy it. I don't personally enjoy something when I have problems with 90% of it, and don't tend to watch such things, but everyone is different I suppose. There are masochists in the world, after all, heh. Quote:
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[quote]What happened to your respect for experts here? [quote] What experts have said anything about this? The only expertise was talking about what kind of round it was, which is essentially pointless in the scheme of things. The only info we have to go on is "HE" and "can take out a tank." Given that we lack anymore specifics, and that Mid-Childa isn't Earth and therefore we can't reference Earth tanks, the logical conclusion is that it was a type of mass-based ammo that could take out *any* tank. Quote:
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ark, I'm really trying to find out if you're trolling or not. Lots of evidence for the strength of Barrier Jackets, and the only reason you're desperately arguing *anything* you can, is that you want to believe mages can be taken out by a simple handgun. That somehow mass-based weapons are better than magic. You've provided no proof of any of this, just conjecture and half-assed theories that have been shown to be incredibly unlikely. Let me take an example: Quote:
This is exactly what"m talking about. Instead of accepting the obvious that anyone here can see (Subaru actually has gotten cuts, bruises, etc.), you feel the need to invent something totally new and unnecessary. You know, you're the type of person that everything needs to be explained to, every single detail, otherwise there's room for error. In this case, they needed to specifically say, "Oh yes, Subaru cut cut, actually cut, and she was bleeding real blood from her real blood and skin" instead of, you know, assuming the audience isn't a bunch of idiots and can make that deduction on their own. You're the type of person who needs it explained, that every time there is red on the screen, we need to be told whether it's paint or blood. You're too wrapped in "But they didn't SAY it was blood! It could have been ANYTHING!" and your own world, that I fear any discussion with your is pointless. I can take criticisms of a show, and I've made a few myself of Nanoha, as long as they are logical. But you take it to 11 and beyond, making up theories on the spot rather than accept the obvious, even if it's not 100% clear and stated. At this point you might want to stop and let PhoenixFlare continue, as his arguments are at least better than yours. Quote:
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Oh wait, humans have had the same set of holes since time began, and thus no new holes have been discovered. And yes, people were using all the usual holes as far back as we have recorded history. I'm sorry, this line just cracks me up, heh. "We learned you can put things in more holes!" You ought to study up the history of sex; there's really nothing new under the sun, and mankind quickly reached the limit of hole-inserting shortly after discovering sex. About the only argument you *could* make, is that we can make more and more artificial stuff to insert into holes, but our ancestors weren't above finding anything and everything to insert. Dear god how this conversation has drifted.... Quote:
Kids are gonna have sex regardless of what you tell them, and birth control just helps limit the pregnancies. Quote:
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I have a feeling most people might say "no" to that; I admit it's just a guess, though. And you also aren't taking into consideration the founding principles of the TSAB. If any organization betrays it's founding principles, then they lose the reason for their being, and that's when they begin to fail. If a principle can be broken, then it isn't a principle, and thus every other principle can be broken, too. They lose the moral high ground. To put it in perspective, Regius and the brain council felt there was an apparent threat, and thus betrayed the rules and principles of the TSAB to create and deal with Jail. Look how well that turned out? They traded a small situation (a single incident that killed or injured a few people), for a large one (Jail invading the city not once, but twice, and threatening the whole planet with annihilation). And it ended with their deaths. You have to think real long and hard about your principles, because there's more behind them than you think. Quote:
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And even if we accept that magic is more destructive than a nuclear weapon, for the sake of argument... the pool of people who would have the capability for mass-destruction is greater once you introduce mass-based weapons. With mages, it's fairly limited. There's always a chance of someone going rogue, but the pool is smaller with just mages. You can eliminate risk, but you can minimize it. Quote:
Otherwise, it's just a bit too convenient that the mastermind behind the mariage attacks somehow got into the investigation. The gun may have been useless against a mage like Teana, but that wasn't the point. It was to handle other criminals, who may or may not be mages, or at least maybe weak enough mages without devices that she would stand a chance against. Given that she had prior experience and knowledge with guns due to growing up on Orussia, it made sense to allow her some personal self-protection, especially since it wasn't much of a threat against the Bureau's mages. |
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2010-08-11, 13:24 | Link #945 | ||||||||||
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Anyway, the main point is that given that she was already in panic, you can't take her decision to show that, basically, the Belkan / Al Hazredian designers were morons. For all that, let me throw you a compromise. Since it is implausible to me that the ship designer will build an automated defense that cannot be activated manually, and you can't imagine Quattro panicking like that if the option was there, perhaps we can settle on the idea that she figured the ship won't be able to activate the system in time. For basis I'll note that when the system activated automatically, it had a ~15 second delay while it blared a long warning before started up, which is reasonable so any mages fighting inside don't suddenly lose their magic. If we assume there is an enforced warning time for a manual start up as well, and count in the time it'll take Quattro to start the right program manually, it might explain why Quattro was panicking - the system probably won't start before Nanoha blasts her. Quote:
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1) From a physics perspective, I can assume that the barrier jacket has an infinite (thanks to magic) strength vs kinetic, and Fate will still be crunched, simply because the fields could hold but the extremely limited thicknesses of the barrier jacket cannot provide nearly enough decelerative "cushion" space to avoid a pulverizing blow. That's why I say they are somewhat different fields. 2) If you rewind a bit earlier, to about Ep1 A's, you will be able to see some scenes of Nanoha crashing into things. I suppose you won't contest an assertion that Nanoha is a better defensive mage than Fate. Even so, by the 1st blow Nanoha lost all offensive ability and by the 2nd blow, Nanoha was extremely groggy and can barely point at Vita, even though the velocity was in no way comparable (and you don't want to time it and see) to what Fate had suffered. From this, we can get a general idea of the limitations of the defensive ability of the BJ vs shock, and it isn't enough by orders of magnitude to save Fate. 3) Of course, Fate is clearly alive and so obviously something magical saved her, but the BJ has disqualified itself, and we are discussing BJs. Quote:
Using all the information provided: The round is HE. It is strong enough to take out a tank of unspecified defensive strength, enough to take out a human (given the context, obviously a mage, presumably of Subaru's approximate caliber, but technically may also be any human). As demonstrated, it wasn't strong enough to take out a Cyborg. Quote:
It is much more logical to leave the tank part as undescribed, and use the other information to deduce what kind of tank it is. Quote:
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Is there any reason for concluding even so some kind of attack magic was running other than because the readout would be too depressing otherwise? No. I also notice that any mention about those Type 4 shankings have quietly gone down the drain. Is it because you realize while admittedly our test targets were not 100.00% (the idea being that if they were 100.00% they would not have been hit and we won't get any data), the amount of handicap you can validly claim is relatively small and will do nothing to override the conclusion? And just to reinforce the attack, to some extent canon text itself explains why the average BJ is relatively weak to kinetic penetration. Review P.40 of the manga. It describes the Barriers, Fields and Shields, right, and goes onto how the Barrier "catches things gently" while the Shield is hard and forces things to bounce off (I'm using the original Japanese text here and insta-translating the gist). Fields are used to supplement shields and barriers - they are used to control things like temperature. It then goes on to explain that BJs are made of Barriers and Fields. In physics terms, this means the Barrier applies a relatively low amount of deceleration and gives way easily, while the Shield applies a higher one and doesn't give way as easily. If you have time and space, using a lower amount of deceleration makes sense. Further, it is reasonable to infer that if you wrap your body in hard shields, you might find it hard to move, so wrapping yourself in barriers is logical. Except that the amount of depth available in a barrier jacket is observationally and logically limited, if for no other reason than to avoid limiting movement, normal interactions ... etc. A low deceleration defense plus no depth means ... easy penetration by Kinetic Penetrators. Hmm... it is observed ... it is even explained ... Quote:
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But it doesn't stop you from flaming him, I see |
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2010-08-11, 14:04 | Link #946 | |||||||||||
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You talk abotu Nanoha in ep 1 is interesting, because after her first crash, she was just coughing probably due to dust, perhaps a bit out of it like Fate was during her crash and subsequent recovery. Given a little bit more time, Nanoha would have been back at it. However, Vita's next attack destroyed part of Nanoha's barrier jacket, and thus her next impact affected her more. So, interesting, it does seem as if Barrier Jackets themselves are protecting against kinetic impacts, because the more you remove them, the more the mage is affected by it. Quote:
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So, what's your explanation for the tissue paper barrier jacket coming through intact? Obviously, it did nothing to save Subaru, since it's incredibly weak, so it should have at least been mostly torn to shreds Quote:
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2010-08-11, 15:53 | Link #947 | ||||||||
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In any case, the point is that the Mariage leader's attack did not cause Subaru serious injuries; this can also be inferred from the fact that (unlike in StrikerS ep17) she doesn't have to spend time in hospital recovering. Quote:
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If the force generated by the insects' wings at that distance was enough to rip an A-rank mage's BJ, then so would be the forces involved from the mage shrugging, or stretching her arms. It makes much more sense to accept that not all magical effects glow visibly than it does to claim that BJs are made of crepe paper. Even if I accepted all your other arguments about the weaknesses of BJs, this simply does not compute. Quote:
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In essence, even if we accept your view that BJs are useless against kinetic attacks, mages can still hold their own against enemies with guns, by using some rather basic tactics. Which is not to say that mass-based weapons are useless; on the contrary, they certainly have their uses, particularly when it comes to heavier weapons (like the Strike Cannon). But arming redshirts with M4s isn't likely to accomplish much, certainly not in the situation we've seen in Force. Quote:
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2010-08-11, 19:46 | Link #948 | ||
Utu Class Planetoid
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Location: Reading, UK
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If you were for example thinking of the drone in episode 3 we wouldn't have been able from to see the rather low visibility signature that we see in episode 26 due to the angle we are watching from. Her first punch doesn't penetrate the drones shield due to her magical boosts being drained off by the AMF. Suberu regularly hits a defensive shield, wedges her hand into it and breaks the shield before unleashing some other attack, which seems to be what happens on her second attack. Strada shows no such glow when Erio uses it with Explosion on the bridge in Episode 3. |
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2010-08-11, 21:03 | Link #949 | |||
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2010-08-11, 23:15 | Link #951 | ||||||||
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If we use the observation as leader, we get a solution that isn't greatly different. The amount of damage is as observed in picture. Velocity of round is as heard. Now we supplement with dialogue. A human can't have survived it - would be rather meaningless if it didn't mean mage in this context. Subaru survived it, so it must logically be the cyborg hulk that makes the difference. Quote:
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As a system, a certain degree of strengthening of the biological components is necessary in any case to secure favorable conditions for using super strength without hurting yourself. If you have ever hurt your fists punching walls then you might imagine the consequences of Subaru punching walls without toughening the skin on the fists, to take a simple example. Third, it would be likely part of the modification will be genetically encoded, and thus there may be no choice. Besides, even given there's a choice, can you imagine this conversation? "Look here, Major Nakajima, its time for Subaru's grown up skin. There are two options. She can have normal skin or enhanced skin." "How good is this enhanced skin?" "Good enough it can take explosions that will disable mages of AA rank while suffering minimal damage, sir." "Right. And if I choose the normal skin?" "Well, it'll be the equivalent to normal human skin. And Subaru still has too many mechanical parts, so she'll still have to come here for maintenance. Plus, there's a chance it might tear from Subaru's normal, cybernetic-enhanced movements... one rub on the wall at speed and..." "I want my kid to be normal. Give her normal skin." Does this compute? --------- Of course, the real problem is clearly an author who hadn't thought that a minor, heartwarming scene years (I was rewatching it, and I was "Aaah" too) back would jeopardize his attempt to show off some Cyborg toughness in his next story. But it is the author that writes and we who pick up his sh*t and make it work. |
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2010-08-12, 00:43 | Link #952 | ||||||||||||||
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If you want to lead with observation, you are still screwed on this one. See my answer to Prescience. Quote:
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You may be more familiar with Naruto, but I'm very familiar with this problem set (at least as you've presented it, the scenario falls into the problem set). The most common error when solving this problem set is to just go with your wish (perhaps reinforced by lines of time dialogue) without actually comparing the pros and cons of the two options (going with the scene timing or the desired/stated timing) in terms of data retention. And that's why you get a lot of sympathy. Most people don't realize that while not caring about the problem is OK for casual viewing, if it comes to analysis you'll have to make the call solidly. By the way, while I value your candor, tactically speaking you should NOT have told me that there are multiple-instances of Pain saying he needs 5 seconds to prepare (and presumably onscreen he takes more than 5). It just means your solution will have to fit more instances, which makes it HARDER. That's why I tell you to try the exercises I did (and tell me how you did). There are really 2 outcomes: 1) You can succeed in cramming the sequence in 5 seconds for every Pain Instance, or at least something not absurdly far off (say 6 or 7). In that case there is no real contradiction, the only problem was your inability to consider alternatives. 2) You can't (I said I guess this is more likely, but if I knew more than you I'll not be guessing). In which case you are left with the choice of extending the estimated timeframe Pain really uses to prepare. Or you are left with the option of choosing which scenes to delete to force the sequence to fit the desired timeframe. Only at the completion of this stage do you have a real competitor. Before that, you don't even have a real position (let alone a winning one), only an anti-position. Quote:
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And again you ignore the fundamental point that even 50% of Nanoha, Vita or Fate would still be worth more than 100% of everyone else. Quote:
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I think the biggest mistake here is that you seem to figure I made up these positions for the singular strategic purpose of promoting mass weapons. However, that simply isn't the case and the positions you are seeing here were developed in the course of discussions that did not have mass weapons as their emphasis, and in their main form they have been completed before your joining date. Even the "range bash" was made in debates on the ergonomics of devices as a shooting weapon. It is just that the sum result of all these individually created positions is a picture that is highly adverse to magic versus mass. And you, apparently trying to defend the idea that magic would wipe the floor with mass, are bumping into these individual positions. Quote:
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2010-08-12, 06:59 | Link #953 | |
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Let me take this extra post opportunity to summarize things from my viewpoint: 1) On the issue of speed and range of magiweapons: They are slow, and you have no real counterevidence. Citing Rule of Cool means that you are nolo contendere on the point that as shown, they are slow and the distances are limited. Spoiler for On the Rule of Cool and Other Things:
2) On the issue of barrier jackets: From a physics perspective, the biggest problems with them in terms of stopping kinetics is that they are as a rule 1) relatively thin, and 2) relatively soft (this is stated again in the form of saying that fields and barriers are used in the BJ instead of shields). This is probably for good reason of allowing mobility, and will actually have little effect on their anti-radiation, NBC and as far as we know, anti-magic efficiency. However, the relative thinness means that its ability to provide decelerative space is limited, and its softness means that the rate of deceleration it can apply to an object is limited, and also means it'll take the brunt of deformation. BTW, the very description of the barriers' and fields' properties from canon would be meaningless without a strong equivalence or analogue in physics, so if anything, canon further affirms the strong correspondence of the barriers and shields to physics. Given this, the theoretically predictable outcome is that barrier jackets will not be greatly effective in protecting against physical impacts. While there are obviously differences in the performance of BJs (just as their are differences in various parameters of the mages themselves), if viewed with a critical and not apologist eye will quickly reveal that when tested, they show their performance limitations that cast severe doubt on the possibility of them stopping even small arms. Spoiler for On particular tactics:
3) On the subject of other personal active defenses, due to simple concerns of thickness and distance, as well as the effort poured into them, one can expect them to have much higher potential against kinetics (though also with apparent limits as previously alluded). Their bigger limitation is that they are active defenses that are turned on in time of need (by computer or by hand), which would require identification of a threat, and seriously restrict or prohibit movement and fire, even in the most elite mages. Thus, when facing gun armed opponents, mages are likely to be forced to give up this advantage on a regular basis. 4) On the subject of mage flexibility advantage, that is true. However, one must caution that of the whole range of the possibilities provided by magic, mages have often proven themselves capable of only a subset. Thus, the full advantage of mage flexibility will probably not be enjoyed by most mages. In any case, their problem is that encountered by any melee fighter trying to engage a shooter - making it past the fire of the ranged shooter. The conclusion that may be arrived from the above are that there is a high probability mages are vulnerable to typical small arms, and also that even Terran small arms will be useful to allow the average Mid mage to engage targets at longer ranges and with more surprise. Let's stop this post here. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2010-08-12 at 08:31. |
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2010-08-12, 10:24 | Link #954 | ||||||||||||
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Double posting is a no-no, so you might want to try to avoid doing that; if a mod catches it or someone reports you, you'll probably get a warning on your account. Just offering some more information on things you aren't aware of.
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Besides, there's a fairly easy guess for why he doesn't put them together. The type-1's have special appendages for interfacing, while the type-3's appendages are made for combat. Placing circuitry in them to add the interfacing effect would increase weight and complexity, if it could be done at all. Or putting extra appendages in would weigh it down. Type-3 is a pure combat unit, and you don't burden your combat soldiers down with hacking equipment; you leave that to the guy that specializes in hacking (who also carries a handgun or two, instead of the better guns the combat guys have). Quote:
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[qupte]Quite frankly, I'm amused that you chose to use another anime to try to prove your point. The practice is common (in fact, I think most of my opponents have tried Naruto examples at some point or another) but is a poor substitute for actually putting in the work to prove that the scene in question had the effect. It is like pointing to some far away anime's blooper and saying a particular scene you don't want to happen must be a blooper.[/quote] The whole point being the proving of Dramatic Effect/Rule of Cool. You can't deny it exists, that stories are bent all the time for the sake of storytelling. We aren't saying that anything is a blooper; we're just saying our perception of time is being manipulated in order to make a scene more dramatic or cooler. This happens all the time, and why you can't accept it is beyond me. I suppose you should pretty disregard all of tvtropes, too. Quote:
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But at best, you can only claim "we don't know." Any theory you offer is just that; a theory. You prefer thinking that magic isn't involved unless you have a glow or symbol, while most people seem to prefer to thinking that a magical show using mages and copious amounts of magic, has a lot of magical explanations that use magic. Quote:
Ah, I see. So when a character in a show catches an arrow, the arrow must have been moving really slow. Or when a character blocks or dodges a bullet, it must mean the bullet was moving really slow. You know, I think I actually saw your principle in action in the Matrix! I saw several times when bullets were moving really slow, so the characters could dodge them. I even timed it, and yep, those bullets were moving slow! Wow, I didn't think mass-based weapons could be slow that you could dodge or block them like that. Or dramatic effect/rule of cool was in play, but you don't believe in that. But there's another trope which you'll somehow become a believer in, just waiting for you to say it.... For what it's worth, magic can enhance a mages strength, speed, and perception. A center guard mage could thus shoot down almost any projective that came at their team. Quote:
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Personally, I like Teana's fight against Nove, Wendi, and Deed. If she were using simple mass-base weapons, she would have lost, due to the cyborgs dodging them. But because she could control her shots, and the types she used, she could blow up Wendi's charging shot, and guide her two projectiles back to take out two of the cyborgs in one shot each. One mage vs. three cyborgs, and the mage won. Huh. As a Bureau official, do I want to focus my time and energies on making cyborgs? Or continue focusing on mages? Quote:
Your type of movie would be The Last Airbender, where they explain things multiple times, so you know exactly what's going on. Let me check the reviews on that... oh, it doesn't seem like it was a very good movie. Huh. |
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2010-08-12, 11:58 | Link #955 | |
Utu Class Planetoid
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reading, UK
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Spoiler for Strada has no magic glow after Explosion:
Spoiler for But Erio can convert magic to electricity.:
That's generic electricity/Lightning. Non magical at that since, the drones Teana shoot down emit it before exploding. And your ignoring Suberu's own statement that her unboosted fist can't get through the gadget's shield. Spoiler for Suberu's first melee attack on a drone:
Spoiler for She then says without a damage boost she can't penetrate so she will have to do something else.:
Spoiler for Suberu's second attack verses a drone:
That is almost certainly Vibration Shatter, since she just said her magic boost didn't work so she had to try something else. If you have another sequence in mind by all means tell us which one it is. But that sequences shows Suberu + Revolver Knuckles being unable to damage a drone without resorting to Vibration Shatter or some other AMF resistant technique. Since this is the beginning of her training with RF6 do you want to tell us which other technique she could be using. That's not Suberu can punch out Drones with her bare fist. That's Suberu can't punch out drones even with Revolver Knuckles turbines running without something more than conventional magic damage boosts. Spoiler for "Oh and if your counting any magic glow at any point for an attack to be magical Insect Platoon Glowed.":
Spoiler for Revolver Knuckles' Turbine boost runs without linked magic.:
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2010-08-12, 12:54 | Link #956 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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As I said, the issue is most likely a mix of the yield of the round and Subaru's arm taking the brunt of the blow, so only a relatively small portion of the blast went elsewhere. Quote:
In short, it is about acceptance of some event as due to coolness. Thus, invoking it means you give up the right to complain about the scene, or to try and say it did not depict what it clearly did. Quote:
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*To explain the distinction here: Suppose you in good shape can consistently run 100m in 10 seconds, and I take say 11 seconds. If we get into a sprinting contest, you wouldn't have any problems outrunning me - all you have to do is run hard. However, that's not quite the same as it being easy for you to win - you'll still have to run pretty hard. And if one day you aren't feeling your best you might just lose that one second and I have a chance. Also, the idea that a certain enemy can be defeated without any trouble does not mean you can shield against the enemy attack. A F-16 armed with HARM missiles, for example, shouldn't have any trouble dealing with a SA-6 battery - it should be able to dodge the shot and the HARM should be able to kill the single Straight Flush in the battery. That does not equate that if the SA-6 hit, the F-16 won't be badly damaged at least. Try and use those two analogies above to figure out what I think happened that day, without dreaming that the defensive field strength fell to nothing - that simply was not said. Quote:
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The caliber is determined thus: The Miriage says that her weapon is a howitzer. Back when the word had a differentiated meaning, a howitzer is a gun with a length of 15-25 calibers - our modern howitzers should actually be classed as gun-howitzers. Arms are in the region of 70cm long - at least mine is, so let's assume the Miriage, which looks to be man sized and transformed its arm into a howitzer, is similar, 700/15=~46 and 700/25=28.3, so very broadly 30-45mm. Of course, I bet Tsuzuki never found out exactly what's a howitzer, but it does have the nice effect of making the gun be broadly the correct size and width (for a weapon transformed from an arm anyway (so maybe he did?) Quote:
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2010-08-12, 14:15 | Link #957 | ||||||||||||||||||
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It wasn't. Quote:
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Your definition of weak seems to indicate an even fight, though? Quote:
In physics, there is no 100% transmission of energy. There are *always* losses. Quote:
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Hell, a fun example for ya; Right after Nanoha and Fate get their cartridge upgrades, Vita fires 4 mass-based steel orbs at Nanoha, who uses four of her Axel shooter orbs to take them down before they could hit her. Of course, you'll probably argue; "Um, that Vita actually stopped the orbs right in front of Nanoha, specifically to give her time to shoot them down." And I don't know about you, but the initial firing of Axel Shooter, and the incredible speed they took out those orbs, makes it seem like magic can travel pretty damn fast, when she wants it to. Quote:
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All because they didn't explain in fine detail exactly what was going on. Maybe you enjoy being treated like an idiot; but most people don't need everything explained to them, and can figure out the details on their own, understanding what is going on based on the universe it takes place in. Works for the Matrix. And works for Nanoha. |
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2010-08-13, 01:03 | Link #958 | |||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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I wonder why you just assume it is a seafaring ship without a rudder. Besides, you yourself asserted it was going pretty straight, and a real seafaring ship cruising without a rudder will suffer course deviation in a very short time.
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Your mistake here is a common one where you are looking for the presence / absence of something while what I'm looking at are magnitudes. Quote:
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Being a complete couch potato, I can't say whether they can, or how much they exaggerated the whole wave business, so I'll just go with what is shown - no evidence of magic usage. However, even if we need magic to "bridge the gap", it is more likely it is just concealed by all the water than being some kind of miracle exception to the rule - a factor that won't be in Precia's case (she being on dry land). And the point remains, we see no evidence of a magical attack. If there is also no feat that requires magic, then the insistence on it is unsubstantiable. Quote:
An insisistence that Nanoha must have been near-dead when the droid stabbed her is rewriting the scenario. Quote:
So, suppose this kung fu master is a 9-dan or equivalent in your system. He fights you, and he can deal with you easily. If he fights a 1-dan, he'll probably win "with no problem" because he's still much more skilled and experienced, but probably not "easily" - if he makes more than a very small error the 1-dan is likely good enough to exploit it and turn the tables on him. If he fights a 7 or 8-dan he has a better than even chance of winning, but not "with no problem", and who wins may well depend more on both side's "state of the day" than the overall skill level. And under none of these is any guarantee that if you are granted a clean hit, the battle won't suddenly start looking very grey for your master. Get the distinction? Quote:
Don't just try and pick the least scientific explanation of works. Quote:
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Besides, Fate's jacket was cut because of physical blow will be simpler than Fate's jacket was cut because of a combination of physical blow and magic. ===== Most of what remains is a very long winded way of saying that you agree with me that as presented (thus, as in canon), the ranges are low and speeds are limited. Your inability to accept it is all very well, but it doesn't change the canon. Let's concentrate on what's left. Quote:
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Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2010-08-13 at 07:07. |
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2010-08-13, 10:49 | Link #959 | ||||||||||||||
Banned
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If we assume that they are the exact same thing as the type-1 drone red apppendages, then it doesn't make sense to keep using type-1's because the type-3's are stronger. So, because of the different drone types and the fact we never see a type-3 interface, we have to assume the appendages have a different purpose (combat/anchorage). Quote:
Remember, Nanoha wasn't really injured in the first crash; she was coughing, probably because of the dust, but she was able to put up a barrier when Vita came zooming in. And by the time we see Fate, it's been sometime since her crash, so that explains why she appears fully recovered; we don't see her immediately after like we did with Nanoha. Again, the only difference between Nanoha's two crashes is the removal of the BJ layer. This is our control; we have one crash with and one without, so a comparison can be made and conclusions drawn. Quote:
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Your attitude seems to imply it doesn't work for you, which is fine. There seems to be a lot about the show you don't like. But the rule is in play. Like we've said, if you want to believe the 6 seconds were really 6 seconds, then you'd have to conclude that Vita is an idiot. If you want to conclude all your timings are exact, then we have to conclude that everyone in the show is an idiot. That is what you are saying. Quote:
And you are also ignoring all the times Vivio, Einhart, Rio, and Corona punch and kick, their bodies enhanced by magic, and there is *no* glow. Even on dry land. Quote:
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In fact, just like Nanoha and the drone, if I come across the master and he's severely weakened, I could very well get some nasty hits on him, especially with surprise. You don't really understand how real fighting goes, so you'd be advised not to use it for analogies; It's nothing like what you see on TV. It's why I went with aikido, so I could try my best not to fight. If you fight someone even close to your level, even if you win, you're still coming out of it with injuries. Quote:
The same reason as a laser: in both cases, the beam/jet disperses due to colliding with gas molecules, dust particles, and water droplets suspended in the air. Gravity also plays a role, but much more on the water jet than the laser. One other thing: molecules in water, and photons in a laser, will push against each other as they travel, widening the beam. If you have a laser with less than half an inch wide, and you shoot it at the moon from Earth, it will end up being nearly a mile wide by the time it reaches the moon, 238, 000 miles away. It doesn't matter how much power you pump into it; by the time the laser reaches the moon, it won't have near the power of when it was fired. The other thing to range calculations, are the ability of the targeter to see the target, and fire in such a way as to not miss. Nanoha's Extension probably has a theoretical max range as far as she can see and appropriately aim; we don't know what it is, and for all we know, it could be several kilometers easily. Maybe she could hit the moon, we don't know. The point is that the spell is said to lose no power, which according to physics, is impossible. Everything loses power as it travels through an atmosphere. Except for probably neutrinos, but they supposedly have no mass and pass through everything, heh. Quote:
I suppose, if you really want to accept everyone as being stupid, including the TSAB, you can. But it raises the question why do you like such a dumb show? Quote:
Even if we accept that an RPG can take out a cyborg (and you're arguing earlier than an HE howitzer round can't take out a cyborg mage, heh), you admit she can't take out two targets at once. Magic wins, mass fails. She wouldn't be able to carry near the amount of RPG ammo for a prolonged engagement, and it would just weigh her down, reducing her mobility. So, which is it? Can a mass-based weapon take out a cyborg or not? Your answers thus far seem contradictory. The RPG was original designed (and still used as) an anti-tank weapon. The HE howitzer round was said to be able to take out a tank. You have two anti-tank weapons, and you're claiming they can take out a cyborg.... but not a cyborg mage. Hmmm... it would seem you are arguing that because Subaru was a mage with magical protections, she could survive while a normal cyborg would not... and Subaru had a BJ and barrier jacket, while the cyborgs just had a jumpsuit.... |
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2010-08-13, 13:40 | Link #960 | |||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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If we assume that they are the exact same thing as the type-1 drone red apppendages, then it doesn't make sense to keep using type-1's because the type-3's are stronger. So, because of the different drone types and the fact we never see a type-3 interface, we have to assume the appendages have a different purpose (combat/anchorage).[/quote] Or I'm right, and the Type-1s are simply part of an operational hi-lo model. In fact, that's much more likely considering they look exactly the same. Quote:
If by auto-barrier, you mean the role of active defenses, I pretty much said they had to be the ones that saved Fate, since it is rather physically implausible for the BJ to do so. Quote:
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Quite frankly, given the observed velocity (here we go again, actually taking what we see), one cannot help but wonder if in this case at least the BJ was backfiring. Quote:
Or the image is inaccurate, and Subaru WAS stark naked (see my comments to prescience). Just to forestall the comments, at equal canonicity (say within the anime) visual always beats dialogue. On the other hand, in this case the soundtrack is the main thing and the pictures are in the supporting material and further they have shown signs of positioning themselves as figurative rather than literal images. Indeed, if Subaru was nearly naked after the blast, for reasons of "ethics" it'll be difficult to draw her literally, thus forcing them to either forego the picture entirely or go for figurativeness. Quote:
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The fact you actually mind it for such reasons says that you are throwing RoC out the window. Quote:
Further, I see no reason to just assume that every time they punch and kick, their magic must be on. At best, without other evidence, if we really can't see magic-enhanced punches, well, then we'll evaluate whether they were using magic based on whether what they did was within human range. If there is no evidence they are doing superhuman things, well, then, no. Simple, isn't it? Now, ain't it a shame that there's no evidence of it on Precia's infamous whipping? While I'll try to provide extra reasons no, ultimately it is not my job to show there is no magic (impossibility of proving negatives), it is your job to show there is. Since you don't have a sign, you'll basically have to prove that mere physical impact cannot possibly penetrate the barrier jacket even though it is a soft, clothlike existence. Quote:
Anyway, if you don't think the fighting analogies suitable (having just admitted I was a couch potato, I only tried to do one because you are talking martial arts), then use the running and fighter plane analogies from last time. Quote:
First the phenomena of a laser spreading out over distance reduces its intensity, not power. Second, the very fact that the statement only guarantees a "super long distance" rather than an "infinite/any distance" is already a clear sign the thing is not a scientifically impossible 100% efficient. Third, the statement never said flat out it does not lose power at all. All it promises is that it does not "deteoriate", which can be achieved much more simply by replacing the power lost than trying to prevent it from losing any. Fifth, if it statement really must be that it does not lose any power at all (which will actually force it to self-contradict due to Point 2), it will go up against the visual, which in a scientific analysis would shatter it as soon as the thing glows. Quote:
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BTW, I do agree they were going for slo-mo there in Ep23, though the limited distances means that the bolts still aren't traveling THAT fast. You'll notice how they are doing it right - freeze frame, lines on top and bottom - they are putting up the right signal flags. Quote:
She won't be able to take out two targets at once. On the other hand, the RPG should to allow her to solidly kill the opponent, rather than resorting to the complicated tactic of a back sneak attack, and still having one of those hit getting up and almost becoming her undoing. The flow of the battle would have gone entirely differently so the comparison is both unfair and not really relevant. You've got a point on the round count, but consider this. You are about to engage 3 enemies (and remember, the original plan was for team combat so it wasn't supposed to deteoriate to a 1:3). You can have a choice of ammo: You can have say 6 rounds that will kill the enemy for certain as long as you can hit him. Or you can have more rounds, but you'll have to be good and lucky for them to maybe work. Your choice. Having said all this, again, one must point out the simple fact that ultimately, no one is arguing that they drop all magic weapons and pick up guns. |
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