(L) Hakuouki: Shinsengumi Kitan anime (Seasons 1 & 2)

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Haak

I disagree. If she's been there for a whole year then she should atleast have more skill. The more skill you have, the more confidence you have. Chizuru should've had enough confidence to not react the way she did. Especially if she had enough confidence to stand up for the other woman. I don't believe she has to be a trained warrior to avoid reacting like a normal person.

Why should she have more skill though? She's just being doing what we've seen, and nothing there tells me that her skill with a weapon or in such scenarios that we've seen would be improved. She's still the same as she was a year ago.

It just seems like more people want to her to react the way you'd expect someone to do in such a scene, though like it's been said, she's a normal person and not a warrior. It's not her place to such a thing. That's why we have the Shinsengumi.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

Why should she have more skill though? She's just being doing what we've seen, and nothing there tells me that her skill with a weapon or in such scenarios that we've seen would be improved. She's still the same as she was a year ago.

Because she keeps getting into a lot of dangerous situations where being good with a swoird would clearly be of use...
I'm not sure i understand this. Why do we have to neccessairly see her improve on-screen? Surely you don't believe that what we've seen her do on-screen was an actual whole year. It was probably only an extremely tiny fraction of a whole year. Is it unreasonable to assume she improved off-screen?

It just seems like more people want to her to react the way you'd expect someone to do in such a scene, though like it's been said, she's a normal person and not a warrior. It's not her place to such a thing. That's why we have the Shinsengumi.

So why did she try and save that other woman in the first place then?

[Shiroth]

1) She's not with the Shinsengumi to learn how to be a fighter, so it shouldn't be any sort of surprise that she hasn't learn anything like that. Sure she keeps on getting into this situations where knowing more with a weapon would come in handy, though that isn't her character. She's not a warrior.

2) No i'm not saying we've seen everything from Chizuru in the past year, though if she was training with a weapon then that's something the series would show us because it would be quite important, though because we haven't seen anything like that, i don't see why we should believe that it's happened. There's been nothing in this series to indicate her doing so off screen.

3) She tried to save the other woman because that's the right thing to do, and Chizuru is known for running in head first and asking questions later. Sure it's not the smart thing to do, though that's just who she is. We've seen such scenarios on more then one occasion.

[Jin Kizuite]

I also think she should of at least got some training tips? It makes that scene with that one guy saying she wouldn't be a hinderance if she got attacked a laugh.

[Haladflire65]

I have to agree that Chizuru has been a bit annoying with her uselessness lately, and it's become a pattern - going out alone at night, getting jumped by bad guy, gasping/closing eyes/taking step back, then Shinsengumi guys coming to save her - it's painfully repetitive and annoys me beyond expression.

Spoiler for episode 8:

I enjoyed this episode, especially that scene with Toshi in the bar - his character seems a lot more human all of a sudden. And then bad guys happen to appear when all the Shinsengumi members are drunk and having fun - of course I hope there's no kidnapping Chizuru kind of senario, that's extremely cliche IMO, and I wouldn't like that much... At least it might make the story move on...? Speaking of which, when is the story finally going to pick up? There's only 5 episodes left but so far the plot hasn't moved forward at all, it's been getting repetitive as I mentioned above and there's no sign of the Shinsengumi-Onis I were hoping for (save Sannan-san)

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

It's in her nature to stop all that's wrong and try to project the weak, as we've seen on more then one occasion. Just because she does that doesn't mean she's able to fight off those warriors.

But it doesn't mean that she has to close her eyes, damn it!

You guys seriously don't get me, do you? I'm not saying that she must kick their asses! Geez... Just don't shut your damn eyes! Take out sword and at least try to look cool! Is it that hard to take out sword and keep your eyes open?



Anyway just saw raw, looks like evil Chizuru is on the move.

Haladflire65
Yeh I agree. They better make things moving and not rush it all in last seconds or actually do season 2.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by kitten320

You guys seriously don't get me, do you?

I do, it's just that i was replying to Haak's comments on the matter which are different from yours.

[Zu Ra]

EP 7

I have a theory to put forth Chiruzu's father may have been more of a mad scientist than a good father . Chiruzu may have been his first test subject .

Being saved by somebody of Shinsengumi every episode has become a little cliche . Don't you all think this has been the theme for more than 7 episodes . Regarding Chiruzu battle capabilities I would say they are quite lacking and there hasn't been much improvement . Have been pointing that out from a couple of episodes .And that wincing incident, was stupidity personified IMO, she jumped to save and then froze . Me thinks she tries/wants to be to one of Shinsengumi and she forgot for a moment who she really was . That explains trying to stay awake during the siege . She may posses the heart of lion but if you posses the battle poweress of a lamb your are going to get slaughtered .

I have to agree with every other male and go Say No to Man Bewbs . Well we are lucky that way, it could get worse . Hell the sensei could always be another bishie, hellbent on giving a Proctal Examination . Okay why is every other male excited getting molested by Baldie @_@ . This was as hetro as Turkish Wrestling .

Chikage Kazama don't know which seiyu is portraying him but I am dissatisfied with his VA . Despite having the personality of a good villain there is something missing ....

H.Q.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6450/10796201.jpg

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Haak

I disagree. If she's been there for a whole year then she should atleast have more skill. The more skill you have, the more confidence you have. Chizuru should've had enough confidence to not react the way she did. Especially if she had enough confidence to stand up for the other woman. I don't believe she has to be a trained warrior to avoid reacting like a normal person.

The "she has been there a whole year" doesn't really amount to anything as far as fighting is concerned - what has she been doing the whole year ? The household chores, and tagging along during their patrols to be on lookout for clues regarding her father. That is what she apparently likes to do, and improving upon her combat skills isn't on her "to do" list. You might want her to show more aptitude in that regard, but that is not what Chizuru wants, nor should she necessarily aim to do so. (And to be fair, not something her situation demands seeing how she is always being babied by the senior shinsengumi members). Yes, there are obviously situations where her being able to stand up for herself would come in handy, and it does make her somewhat of a damsel in distress otherwise, but her gaining those skills largely goes against her character as it has been established. Not everyone is cut out for fighting, and Chizuru is among those people. We are talking about the Chizuru whose first worry in a mock duel against an opponent that is infinitely better than her is that she might injure him. Actually drawing said blade against another person simply goes against who Chizuru is, no matter how incredibly naiive it might seem.

Is it unreasonable to assume she improved off-screen?

Given the complete lack of implication in this direction by the show, combined with what we know of her character, my answer would be: yes, quite.

[Haak]

Oh boy

@ Shiroth:

Spoiler for space:

Originally Posted by Shiroth

1) She's not with the Shinsengumi to learn how to be a fighter, so it shouldn't be any sort of surprise that she hasn't learn anything like that. Sure she keeps on getting into this situations where knowing more with a weapon would come in handy, though that isn't her character. She's not a warrior.

She doesn't have to be warrior. She doesn't have to learn to be a fighter. Simply recognising that she's going to be in dangerous situations in the future (she's been in plenty already) is perfectly within her character. She doesn't have to become a master samurai. She doesn't even have to be competant enough to be capable of taking on a mook. What would be nice, is if she went into a situation knowing violence could occur and not being surprised when it actually happens. Learning more skill with a sword would greatly improve her confidence and prevent such a thing.

2) No i'm not saying we've seen everything from Chizuru in the past year, though if she was training with a weapon then that's something the series would show us because it would be quite important, though because we haven't seen anything like that, i don't see why we should believe that it's happened. There's been nothing in this series to indicate her doing so off screen.

I disagree. I wouldn't mind it in the least if it happened offscreen and one of the Shinsengumi later remarked how much better she'd gotten.

3) She tried to save the other woman because that's the right thing to do, and Chizuru is known for running in head first and asking questions later. Sure it's not the smart thing to do, though that's just who she is. We've seen such scenarios on more then one occasion.

Yes exactly. The point is that she really ought to have learnt by now...

@ Skyfall

Spoiler for space:

Originally Posted by Skyfall

(And to be fair, not something her situation demands seeing how she is always being babied by the senior shinsengumi members). Yes, there are obviously situations where her being able to stand up for herself would come in handy, and it does make her somewhat of a damsel in distress otherwise, but her gaining those skills largely goes against her character as it has been established. Not everyone is cut out for fighting, and Chizuru is among those people. We are talking about the Chizuru whose first worry in a mock duel against an opponent that is infinitely better than her is that she might injure him. Actually drawing said blade against another person simply goes against who Chizuru is, no matter how incredibly naiive it might seem.

Actually, I'd say it is something her situation demands, especially if she's going to actively make it so.

And I don't really see how it goes against her character to draw a blade against someone when we've already seen her do it. She still went ahead and did it and one of the shinsengumi remarked that she had some bit of skill. She obviously must have learnt it somewhere which means it's perfectly within her character to want to learn sword skills as a precaution. She may have been worried that she'd hurt her opponent in mock battle but that's only because it was a mock battle and she knew her opponent. There's nothing to suggest she has to hold the same values against those that try to kill her. We could easily just pin it down to incompetence (and considering the amount of apolagizing she always does I'd reckon that would be the case)

Given the complete lack of implication in this direction by the show, combined with what we know of her character, my answer would be: yes, quite.

What previous implication would be needed? Infact this would actually serve as implication.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Haak

And I don't really see how it goes against her character to draw a blade against someone when we've already seen her do it. She still went ahead and did it and one of the shinsengumi remarked that she had some bit of skill. She obviously must have learnt it somewhere which means it's perfectly within her character to want to learn sword skills as a precaution. She may have been worried that she'd hurt her opponent in mock battle but that's only because it was a mock battle and she knew her opponent. There's nothing to suggest she has to hold the same values against those that try to kill her. We could easily just pin it down to incompetence (and considering the amount of apolagizing she always does I'd reckon that would be the case)

Well, all i can say is: you are certainly getting a very different impression of Chizuru's character than i am. "having seen her draw a blade against someone" - just because she did it once, in a practice match, doesn't mean she likes doing so, i thought as much was established fairly clearly. While i would like to see Chizuru pick up her sword and start doing something with it besides being a decoration as much as you, i don't see it as something within her character to do so. She has demonstrated plenty of times that turning to her sword is not really an option crossing her mind in the majority of cases. Foolish or not, that is how she has been portrayed. Would she be six feet under by now due to her own recklessness and the following deer-in-headlights moments she frequently runs in to if not for the bishie squad willing to humor her antics ? Most likely. But that is just who she is, however irresponsible it might seem. She just happens to be lucky that the shinsengumi are quite willing to take over said responsibilities.

Should she change her modus operandi ? It would probably be good if she did indeed, but at the same time, as things are now, it is not within her character to do so, as there is no pressing need for it. That may or may not change if one of the shinsengumi gets a mortal injury or worse because of her, but as things are now, all is well that ends well, and everyone seems content with that arrangement, so there isn't really much drive for her to push herself to change either.

What previous implication would be needed? Infact this would actually serve as implication.

Any at all. If you are making an assertion that it is a reasonable assumption that Chizuru has been honing her sword skills or general ability to participate in a battle, you would need to bring forth some sort of evidence to support it. Since the last few episodes have shown nothing, through implication or otherwise, that Chizuru is in any way different from how she was before said 1 year timeskip, i deem said assertion as false.

I am not particularly fond of damsels in distress either, but meh ...not everyone can be a fighter. Don't confuse your image of what you want Chizuru to be to the one she actually is

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Well, all i can say is: you are certainly getting a very different impression of Chizuru's character than i am. "having seen her draw a blade against someone" - just because she did it once, in a practice match, doesn't mean she likes doing so, i thought as much was established fairly clearly. While i would like to see Chizuru pick up her sword and start doing something with it besides being a decoration as much as you, i don't see it as something within her character to do so. She has demonstrated plenty of times that turning to her sword is not really an option crossing her mind in the majority of cases. Foolish or not, that is how she has been portrayed.

Again, I link that to incompetance.
I wouldn't say she has to like it either but it seems clear to me she's not beyond it.

[edit]

Should she change her modus operandi ? It would probably be good if she did indeed, but at the same time, as things are now, it is not within her character to do so, as there is no pressing need for it. That may or may not change if one of the shinsengumi gets a mortal injury or worse because of her, but as things are now, all is well that ends well, and everyone seems content with that arrangement, so there isn't really much drive for her to push herself to change either.

On the contrary, if she hadn't been saved she could've been killed. I'd say that's a pretty big deal.

Any at all. If you are making an assertion that it is a reasonable assumption that Chizuru has been honing her sword skills or general ability to participate in a battle, you would need to bring forth some sort of evidence to support it. Since the last few episodes have shown nothing, through implication or otherwise, that Chizuru is in any way different from how she was before said 1 year timeskip, i deem said assertion as false.

I don't see why any foreshadowing is needed. I consider it to be a reasonable assumption based on what I think is obvious: That if you can atleast recongise that you're going to be in trouble in the future and don't want to be a liability to your samurai friends, you'd take the time to take the neccessairly precautions. It just seems like common sense to me.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Haak

On the contrary, if she hadn't been saved she could've been killed. I'd say that's a pretty big deal.

I am not saying it isn't a big deal - it is, but currently her circumstances are such that she can essentially avoid dealing with those issues, because they get taken care of for her. Those are issues she apparently doesn't wish to confront by herself, and those doing it for her do it for a living and don't seem to mind all that much, and thus we are where we are - in a situation where Chizuru can get away with being incompetent in a fight, because others will fight for her.

I don't see why any foreshadowing is needed. I consider it to be a reasonable assumption based on what I think is obvious: That if you can atleast recongise that you're going to be in trouble in the future and don't want to be a liability to your samurai friends, you'd take the time to take the neccessairly precautions. It just seems like common sense to me.

Wouldn't that be nice indeed ... and it would be a development i would welcome for her as well, as she does act too carefree for her position. Until the show actually presents us with any evidence along those lines though, it isn't much more than wishful thinking in this case. If you are making a claim, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate it, but at the present point in time, the show doesn't have any implications that would put credibility behind the speculation that Chizuru is undergoing training behind the scenes.

[Foreshadow]

It's pretty interesting considering in Episode 2 Okita says they won't bring Chizuru on patrol with them unless she can protect herself. And Hajime says she won't be a burden on their patrols because of her "unclouded" sword technique.

When it's obviously been proven otherwise.

You'd think Chizuru wouldn't make any actions to burden the Shinsengumi..

Right?

[Joojoobees]

Okay, I waded into this way back when Chizuru ran into the Ikedaya, and my position has not changed. It is pretty stupid to get into a dangerous situation in order to help someone else, but that is the kind of person she is.

As to the one time we have seen her fight, it was an epic fail. She didn't even want to fight, and only agreed to do so when she was told she could use the dull side of the sword. She uses the most straightforward attack (shomenuchi). Her sword was then instantly knocked out of her hands. Later, when she rushes to defend Sen, Saitou says, "Don't worry, I used the back side of my sword." He knows that she has no desire for violence, even against bad guys, but she does have a (foolish) impulse to defend the weak (as Shiroth pointed out recently).

One more point on this: in the flashback she was shown as a middle-class girl, dressed in a kimono. There is no reason to think she was a tomboy. She probably spent her time making tea, and cleaning. Whatever sword training she received was minimal.

What I think has been overlooked: The only time she has ever shown willingness to attack, was this last episode when she starts to draw her blade against the blonde oni (Chikage Kazama). That was unprecedented, making it seem like she considers him more of a threat than someone coming straight at her with a sword.

[orion]

But, this is based on an otome game. Perhaps, like Neo Angelique Abyss, Chizuru gets a power up in 2nd season. It's a reverse harem setup in which the girl gets saved by the guys. The prince saves the princess and all that jazz. I'm only up to ep 3 1st season of Neo Angelique Abyss but this one looks just like Abyss except that it's more exciting and better animation.

Expecting her to be a katana wielding kickass may not be what the game or anime is suppose to do. She saves the world in a less than katana kicking ass manner and gets one of the guys.

[MikaMiaka]

Originally Posted by kitten320

But it doesn't mean that she has to close her eyes, damn it!

You guys seriously don't get me, do you? I'm not saying that she must kick their asses! Geez... Just don't shut your damn eyes! Take out sword and at least try to look cool! Is it that hard to take out sword and keep your eyes open?



Anyway just saw raw, looks like evil Chizuru is on the move.

Haladflire65
Yeh I agree. They better make things moving and not rush it all in last seconds or actually do season 2.

I get you.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

It's pretty interesting considering in Episode 2 Okita says they won't bring Chizuru on patrol with them unless she can protect herself. And Hajime says she won't be a burden on their patrols because of her "unclouded" sword technique.

When it's obviously been proven otherwise.

You'd think Chizuru wouldn't make any actions to burden the Shinsengumi..

Right?

Exactly!

Originally Posted by orion

But, this is based on an otome game. Perhaps, like Neo Angelique Abyss, Chizuru gets a power up in 2nd season. It's a reverse harem setup in which the girl gets saved by the guys. The prince saves the princess and all that jazz. I'm only up to ep 3 1st season of Neo Angelique Abyss but this one looks just like Abyss except that it's more exciting and better animation.

Expecting her to be a katana wielding kickass may not be what the game or anime is suppose to do.

That's not what we are expecting. We just expect her to stop acting stupid.

You can still have a show where the guy rescues the girl without having to so blatantly set up a situation where anyone looking would roll their eyes and ask if this girl is for real. See e.g. Uroboku.

Just the mere act of wincing instead of being in an alert stance is annoying during that scene. That's all anyone is saying. I don't know why they just don't draw her taking out that damn family heirloom sword. If you can't fight, don't get in the middle of sh*t you can't control.

I don't know why people are defending her actions. It's indefensible. You can say, well, that's just her character. And I say, fine, but but that is a stupid trait for a character that we are supposed to cheer on.

I'm trying so hard to like her, but she's just there.

[orion]

Originally Posted by MikaMiaka

That's not what we are expecting. We just expect her to stop acting stupid.

You can still have a show where the guy rescues the girl without having to so blatantly set up a situation where anyone looking would roll their eyes and ask if this girl is for real. See e.g. Uroboku.

Just the mere act of wincing instead of being in an alert stance is annoying during that scene. That's all anyone is saying. I don't know why they just don't draw her taking out that damn family heirloom sword. If you can't fight, don't get in the middle of sh*t you can't control.

I don't know why people are defending her actions. It's indefensible. You can say, well, that's just her character. And I say, fine, but but that is a stupid trait for a character that we are supposed to cheer on.

I'm trying so hard to like her, but she's just there.

But UraBoku isn't an otome. It's a BL-lite title.

You prob can but she's acting like the girl in Neo Angelique Abyss so I'm thinking this is a "main female character in an otome" trait. Another title like this is Pretear.

It's prob like getting mad at a Visual Art's/Key VN female game character. Lots of people do but this is prob how she is suppose to and expected to act.

And besides the females watching this can't squeal when Saito, Hiji and Okita save her if she becomes a kickass. That's the whole point here. Girls want to see those hunky guys in action.

[Pocky Yoshi]

Originally Posted by orion

And besides the females watching this can't squeal when Saito, Hiji and Okita save her if she becomes a kickass. That's the whole point here. Girls want to see those hunky guys in action.

Lol. One way to put it I guess.



Anyways, Chizuru looks like the type that doesn't like fighting.
It would be nice trying to save someone on a whim, but it would suck to lose your life on it.
Try being in Chizuru's shoes. Would you pull out a small sword to take on 3 grown men who can easily overpower you?

If you said yes, then you clearly don't understand what kind of person Chizuru is lol.

[MikaMiaka]

Originally Posted by orion

But UraBoku isn't an otome. It's a BL-lite title.

You prob can but she's acting like the girl in Neo Angelique Abyss so I'm thinking this is a "main female character in an otome" trait. Another title like this is Pretear.

It's prob like getting mad at a Visual Art's/Key VN female game character. Lots of people do but this is prob how she is suppose to and expected to act.

And besides the females watching this can't squeal when Saito, Hiji and Okita save her if she becomes a kickass. That's the whole point here. Girls want to see those hunky guys in action.

Well, I don't know what to make of your take on the squealing part. It's like a guy's take on what a girl wants. And personally, it's not the view I subscribe to.

It's great to have a guy there to save you and it's even more awesome that he looks good, but that doesn't mean she needs to be completely helpless when she brings the situation upon herself. This isn't what a girl wants to see and this isn't what they're supposed to think a girl wants to see. But then again, I am unaware of gender roles due to cultural differences but I can guess at it.

And I agree with you on the NeoAngel and Pretear comparisons -- the issue isn't that it is similar (it is clear they are the same archetype of Otome Girl), the issue is why they have to shape female characters in this way.

I accept that this is a character trait of hers -- getting into situations that require the assistance of one of the guys is what she does, after all, but that doesn't mean it makes sense nor does it mean she's excused from her behavior.