Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Erio]

Originally Posted by Kha

It's all technobabble really. Another form of fanfiction I practice. Hahaha...

Your theory works fine so I'll just elaborate on the last bit there:

Disclaimer: I watched epi 5 closely using yesy for this one, so I might be getting some details wrong.

What I found was that even when nullified, the BJs still retain some of their defensive function, otherwise the above poster would've been completely owned and gone home in a squishy body bag from being crushed by the Drone. Instead I think the Gadget gave up and decided to toss him overboard for that uber Caro-boosted comeback.

This might suggest that while the magical component of the BJ has been disabled, the nanites might be still operating on emergency power derived from internally generated energy from the Linker Core since that's what they are always in direct contact with. It's rather limited compared to when running on mana, and so all of it is concentrated on keeping the mage alive, be it life support systems or moderate defences. My analogy is like how GSD Phase Shift armor-equpped mecha works when the power's cut; there's enough for life support and machinegun fire, but a light beam shot would just tear through it. That way, even in the worst circumstances at the very least the mage has a better chance of keeping his ass intact to fight another day.

That was the part I didn't quite agree, but I could be reading too much into the situation...

That makes sense. As for the physical resistance part of the BJ, maybe the nanites by themselves form strong physically resistant molecules. I'm thinking something like mithril armor (see The Lord of the Rings), which is strong as steel but very light in weight.

No wonder I'm still alive, eh?

So far this is what I've noted regarding AMFs:

1. They can be nullified by a decoy layer of resistant magic a la Variable Shoot.
2. They can be nullified by another magical enchantment, opening up avenues for a M-jammer Canceller.
3. They seem to have no effect on a person's Linker Core

I think that the AMF itself is an aura enchantment. It emits noises that disrupt the flow of magic within the area of effect (theory of how it may work). The perfect proof to this is the enchantment Caro casted on Erio's weapon, "Enchanter Field Invalid" (your point #2). That means a complete opposite enchantment (the AMF) could be casted as well.

As for magic circle color, I guess its something in-born, like one's fingerprints, that affects the frequency of mana (I'm assuming its a unique form of EM here) output from one's Linker Core.

Brilliant. I thought of the frequency part, but I didnt know how to put that idea into words.

The only one that changes her magic circle color is Reinforce I, but she is technically a device, so she could change her frequency of mana as she pleases.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

It's not a form of energy as we understand it. Certainly not the way people think of 'energy' in terms of EM radiation. For one thing, it responds to human will.

I'm going out on what I see as a terribly short, unoriginal limb and sticking with the idea that 'magic' has its own rules. I find the entire idea that any of this stuff makes any sense purely in terms of our physical laws, that it's all just very advanced technology, to be preposterous. Magical law is separate from what we'd call physical law- if you define physical law to include magical law (since, after all, if they have rules for interacting with each other they're really just part of the same system), then it is not the physical law we know.

By magically-created matter I'm referring to any matter that just seems to be conjured out of nowhere by magical means, presumably through some magical-energy-to-matter conversion process has nothing to do with ol' c. Blood daggers, Vita's 'croquette balls,' the barrier jackets- they all appear to be ordinary matter but they're created by magical processes and imbued with magical power. To apply the above point, it inspire far less cognitive dissonance for me to say that the listed objects are created by putting magical energy into a form that causes it to emulate physical matter and gives it properties useful for offense or defense not dependent on those of the physical matter it emulates than to say that blood daggers are created by doing an e=mc^2 energy-to-mass conversion and then partially reversing it to create the blast, or by using nanites to assemble a miniature missile that just happens to look like a dagger for aesthetics' sake.

In other words, I hate 'magic is just really advanced technology' unless the technology looks plausible to me. That happens in hard sci-fi, but never in anime.

I'm coming from the standpoint of something in between, that both magic and physics have different laws, but some of them can be applied to both world to a limited extent, and it is through those links that technology can come in and bridge it. I'm thinking of scientifically-supported magic, Full Metamagic (Full Meta), which is more precise, faster, efficient and brutally powerful than oldtype magic, Coarse Metamagic. CM has the developmental advantage against FM, from being around much longer, as well as the ability to use the elements themselves like a weapon instead of just the one most affiliated to one's Linker Core.

But I do admit, I'm making assumptions and technobabble a plenty even while trying to be as plausible and canonically accurate as possible. It's a twisted form of fanfiction for my own fun. :P

Originally Posted by Erio

That makes sense. As for the physical resistance part of the BJ, maybe the nanites by themselves form strong physically resistant molecules. I'm thinking something like mithril armor (see The Lord of the Rings), which is strong as steel but very light in weight.

No wonder I'm still alive, eh?

Half correct. You see, chainmail, even made of mithril, absorbs impact by distributing it throughout the piece of armor while resisting being penetrated, keeping your skin intact. Strong fabrics derived from spidersilk supposedly can do that better than kevlar for much less, and BJ definitely have that aspect in it to counter point impacts like projectiles. But to counter a round-the-body crushing force (like being Anaconda'd by a tentacle), the material has to be hard enough to uniformly resist the crush outwards like a nutshell. That requires it to be as hard as platemail, but you don't see the mages moving about like mecha. Therefore I mentioned BJs being made of smart material, and the implication is that it is able to harden to a certain limit when necessary to avoid being crushed, and yet change back to soft cottony material when the pressure is relieved.

[Kikaifan]

Apologies, I didn't realize I was last post on the page and thought nobody else had posted yet. I edited that sucker about 20 times, specifically added a section on BJ in AMF.

I agree that it's great fun to speculate about, which is why I jumped in on that whole 'BJ as reactive armor' thing, but at the same time I get annoyed sometimes talking about magical energy like it's just another wavelength of EM.

Haha actually your whole 'multiple lightspeeds energy-to-matter' thing got me dragging out my old physics textbooks and 'fabric of the cosmos' trying to figure out the rules for changes in constants.

[Erio]

Originally Posted by Kha

Half correct. You see, chainmail, even made of mithril, absorbs impact by distributing it throughout the piece of armor while resisting being penetrated, keeping your skin intact. Strong fabrics derived from spidersilk supposedly can do that better than kevlar for much less, and BJ definitely have that aspect in it to counter point impacts like projectiles. But to counter a round-the-body crushing force (like being Anaconda'd by a tentacle), the material has to be hard enough to uniformly resist the crush outwards like a nutshell. That requires it to be as hard as platemail, but you don't see the mages moving about like mecha. Therefore I mentioned BJs being made of smart material, and the implication is that it is able to harden to a certain limit when necessary to avoid being crushed, and yet change back to soft cottony material when the pressure is relieved.

Actually, I understand how that works. That it protects against piercing and slashing attacks, but not crushing ones. My line, "No wonder I'm still alive, eh?," was just a joke. I didnt go through explaining how mithril protects the wearer, as I'm sure everyone knows that already. Sorry for the confusion.

As for the part where you say the BJ is able to harden when necessary... Hmm... I kinda doubt it, though it is possible. I think the drone grabbed Erio just to throw him out of the train, not to crush him. We need more battle data from future episodes to confirm these theories.

[Kikaifan]

Materials don't have to be all that 'smart' to reduce elasticity when subjected to large force- we already have a few in testing IIRC. I'm sure barrier jackets have the capability.

For one thing it'd explain how Fate survived getting hammered through all that reinforced concrete by Signum.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Magical energy as 'real' energy- It's not a form of energy as we understand it. Certainly not the way people think of 'energy' in terms of EM radiation. For one thing, it responds to human will.

Barrier jackets in AMF- in StrikerS manga it was stated that a mage in an AMF will lose basic defenses, and the characters generally acted like AMF had absolute effect out to a certain range and none outside that. However, in the StrikerS anime they act more like AMF has a limited effect that decreases in power with distance like a 'real' field. In anime context the survival of the barrier jacket can be explained by barrier jackets incorporating a permanent form of the spell-protection/barrier-inversion techs used by Tiana and Carol against AMF (if barrier jackets' relative permanence and long set-up time allows the incorporation of relatively complex effects it would go a long way towards providing an in-setting explanation why there seems to be such a bias towards defense and character durability in Nanohaverse, though whether AMF-resistance is a standard feature is anyone's guess until we see TSAB grunts trapped inside an AMF.)

In other words, I hate 'magic is just really advanced technology' unless the technology looks plausible to me. That happens in hard sci-fi, but never in anime.

I'll cover the points missed then. I defined what mana was in the General Discussion thread and I'll post it here once I polish it up. As a summary, we have concluded that it works definitely from normal energy, and the most obvious point is that it tends towards orderly structures instead of disordered ones ruled by the General Law of Entropy. This was derived from the spontaneous genesis of ordered beings like Elementals and possibly even a transcendial being. The wider implications of this is that some physical laws may work, some fall through and others are turned on their heads. We only decide what still works like we know it does and what goes topsy according to canon, but that doesn't stop us from interpretting from the frame of reference we are most familiar with, and that introduces some room for error, and thank you for pointing them out! This thread is for ironing them out.

I see what you mean about the BJs. It's perfectly valid too, after Caro threw that boost into the works. Cool, 2 ways to look at it.

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Haha actually your whole 'multiple lightspeeds energy-to-matter' thing got me dragging out my old physics textbooks and 'fabric of the cosmos' trying to figure out the rules for changes in constants.

There aren't, not in the physical world, where constants really are constants. It's in the quantum mess of voidspace that constant states vary, and that's why nothing exists there, for in absolute chaos there cannot be any order, unless there's something that can resist it, like the protection of timeship hulls and barrier jackets. Regrettably, I only have a guess of how those worked; If I knew exactly I'd be building my own ship and conquering one dimension to retire in myself!

Yeah definitely that. I made a rather tongue in cheek comment of how her BJ also kept her skin smooth from whipping and crashing through concrete, and that's from a setup that favors speed over defence... Whatever hurt Nanoha must've been of a really big force...

[Erio]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Materials don't have to be all that 'smart' to reduce elasticity when subjected to large force- we already have a few in testing IIRC. I'm sure barrier jackets have the capability.

For one thing it'd explain how Fate survived getting hammered through all that reinforced concrete by Signum.

Well, at least in Fate's case there was no AMF, so her BJ was at its full power. (This is assuming the BJ loses some of its protective properties inside an AMF)

[Darco_emp]

With regards to Anti Magic Field (AMF)

Declarations the following assumption:
Magical energy is or at least has some properties which are similar to energy that exists in the physical world, and dual properties holds true.

Now we have a look at the available theories

Magic and AMF as waveforms

This is the model which I purposed, which considers magical energy as a sine wave, A*sin(wt + ∅), ∅ = 0. As well as the possible conversion from wave to particle, thus resulting “physical damage” as opposed to pure magical damage.

With that as bases, AMF’s region of operation at 100% efficiency will be
B*sin(wt - 180), A = B. When the two waveforms superposition on each other, gives the resultant waveform r(t) = 0. Effectively cancels out the magic energy.

Now we bring that to a real world system, since there is energy loss at the rate of 1/(d^2), then the field which is modeled by a sine wave can be modeled as a B*sinx/x^2 function. As it is demonstrated when you move away from the centre of AMF there is an exponential decay in the effectiveness of AMF. The decoy layer which nullify the AMF can be considered in mathematics as (A*sin(wt)+ C*sin(wt)) + B*sin(wt - 180), The AMF burns away the decoy layer and leaves the Magical bullet untouched.

With regards to AMF nullified by another magical enchantment, it can be explained as the “enchanter field invalid” works by varying the phase ∅ of the user’s magical energy. For example at ∅ = 90. We get a waveform that has ~ equal energy with the original wave under AMF, when we superposition them.

So far I have not yet been able to find why linker core is unaffected unless the condensed energy in the linker cores is far greater then AMF is able to effect, approximated it to 0.

------------------------

Now, the point brought up by Erio is most interesing I'm write it up when I thinked it through. Frequency associated with colour due to each user is petty much established, so maybe its time for Kha to summarise it too

[Kha]

The Thread! It's Alive! ALIVE!!!

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

With regards to Anti Magic Field (AMF)

Declarations the following assumption:
Magical energy is or at least has some properties which are similar to energy that exists in the physical world, and dual properties holds true.

Now we have a look at the available theories

Magic and AMF as waveforms

This is the model which I purposed, which considers magical energy as a sine wave, A*sin(wt + ∅), ∅ = 0. As well as the possible conversion from wave to particle, thus resulting “physical damage” as opposed to pure magical damage.

With that as bases, AMF’s region of operation at 100% efficiency will be
B*sin(wt - 180), A = B. When the two waveforms superposition on each other, gives the resultant waveform r(t) = 0. Effectively cancels out the magic energy.

Now we bring that to a real world system, since there is energy loss at the rate of 1/(d^2), then the field which is modeled by a sine wave can be modeled as a B*sinx/x^2 function. As it is demonstrated when you move away from the centre of AMF there is an exponential decay in the effectiveness of AMF. The decoy layer which nullify the AMF can be considered in mathematics as (A*sin(wt)+ C*sin(wt)) + B*sin(wt - 180), The AMF burns away the decoy layer and leaves the Magical bullet untouched.

With regards to AMF nullified by another magical enchantment, it can be explained as the “enchanter field invalid” works by varying the phase ∅ of the user’s magical energy. For example at ∅ = 90. We get a waveform that has ~ equal energy with the original wave under AMF, when we superposition them.

So far I have not yet been able to find why linker core is unaffected unless the condensed energy in the linker cores is far greater then AMF is able to effect, approximated it to 0.

Now, the point brought up by Erio is most interesing I'm write it up when I thinked it through.

*applause*

I didn't understand any of the math. Did anyone else get it?

Okay but using whatever I learned of wave superposition, I take it that you mean EFI invalidates the AMF by introducing a wave in complete anti-phase of the AMF disruption field, creating a net resultant of 0 displacement in some aspect of mana that fluctuates?

Either way I'm sooooo gonna hand this discussion to Chario for her to build that M-jammer Canceller. Neat stuff this is. Let's hope Strike Friedich, Infinite Strada and Subaigar pack this in their endgame.

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by Kha

The Thread! It's Alive! ALIVE!!!



*applause*

I didn't understand any of the math. Did anyone else get it?

Okay but using whatever I learned of wave superposition, I take it that you mean EFI invalidates the AMF by introducing a wave in complete anti-phase of the AMF disruption field, creating a net resultant of 0 displacement in some aspect of mana that fluctuates?

Either way I'm sooooo gonna hand this discussion to Chario for her to build that M-jammer Canceller. Neat stuff this is. Let's hope Strike Friedich, Infinite Strada and Subaigar pack this in their endgame.

Just draw sin(x-pi)+sin(x-pi/2) in a calculator, and consider sin(x-pi) as AMF, and sin(x-pi/2) as enchanter field modified magic attack. with sin(x) as the original magic attack.
and don't blame me on the math, I used the most basic ones to show my point. since the real life systems is much better modeled via sinc function

[Keroko]

But what if AMF doesn’t dispel all magic, but simply the refined energy? That would explain why Linker Cores are unaffected.

Magic exists in two forms, the raw energy, or mana, and the refined energy that makes up a barrier, magic blast, or empowered weapon. What an AMF does in not make this energy disappear, but rather ‘unweaves’ the elements that held the spell together, reducing the spell to the energy it came from. Just like vibrations can shatter a rock, reducing it to nothing more then sand and dust, and AMF would ‘vibrate’ the spell apart. Since Linker Cores are the energy they would be reduced to, they would naturally remain unaffected.

This would also explain how a shielded magical blast can get through an AMF, since the AMF has to unweave two spells instead of one, the blast can get through before the shield is fully destroyed.

As to barrier jackets, since they are either solidified magic or empowered Nano-machines (depending on your point of view) they are like reinforced concrete. Normal concrete will collapse far easier then reinforced concrete. The amount of power needed to 'unweave' a barrier jacket or Intelligent Device would far exceed that necissary to unweave an offensive spell.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

Just draw sin(x-pi)+sin(x-pi/2) in a calculator, and consider sin(x-pi) as AMF, and sin(x-pi/2) as enchanter field modified magic attack. with sin(x) as the original magic attack.
and don't blame me on the math, I used the most basic ones to show my point. since the real life systems is much better modeled via sinc function

Ok time to get a better calc. I hope when I do get round to Linker Core genesis and the Claudia cycle (biologically derived magical processes) this doesn't happen to anyone.

Originally Posted by Keroko

But what if AMF doesn’t dispel all magic, but simply the refined energy? That would explain why Linker Cores are unaffected.

Magic exists in two forms, the raw energy, or mana, and the refined energy that makes up a barrier, magic blast, or empowered weapon. What an AMF does in not make this energy disappear, but rather ‘unweaves’ the elements that held the spell together, reducing the spell to the energy it came from. Just like vibrations can shatter a rock, reducing it to nothing more then sand and dust, and AMF would ‘vibrate’ the spell apart. Since Linker Cores are the energy they would be reduced to, they would naturally remain unaffected.

This would also explain how a shielded magical blast can get through an AMF, since the AMF has to unweave two spells instead of one, the blast can get through before the shield is fully destroyed.

As to barrier jackets, since they are either solidified magic or empowered Nano-machines (depending on your point of view) they are like reinforced concrete. Normal concrete will collapse far easier then reinforced concrete. The amount of power needed to 'unweave' a barrier jacket or Intelligent Device would far exceed that necissary to unweave an offensive spell.

Ah I see. I hope got it right here... Disordered magical derivatives like Linker Core cannot be further disrupted becuase they are already in a mess, while ordered ones are subjected to the AMF frequency which is of their natural frequency and thus resonate to dissonance. BJs stay intact because of better damping of the magically derived structures. The catch 22 here is that the AMF has to broadcast a wide spectrum of superimposed waves of different frequencies to catch all the different natural frequencies of different magic colors. I hope this it correct...

Scribbled on post-it stuck to above documents:

Due to differing hypothesis of AMF operation, TSAB has yet to come up with a proper countermeasure. More research is required.

Lt. Kha Alexei T.
Head Medic, Bio-Sorcerology
HMSS Silvana
For TSAB FutureTech Laboratories

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by Kha

Ah I see. I hope got it right here... Disordered magical derivatives like Linker Core cannot be further disrupted becuase they are already in a mess, while ordered ones are subjected to the AMF frequency which is of their natural frequency and thus resonate to dissonance. BJs stay intact because of better damping of the magically derived structures. The catch 22 here is that the AMF has to broadcast a wide spectrum of superimposed waves of different frequencies to catch all the different natural frequencies of different magic colors. I hope this it correct...

Scribbled on post-it stuck to above documents:

Due to differing hypothesis of AMF operation, TSAB has yet to come up with a proper countermeasure. More research is required.

Lt. Kha Alexei T.
Head Medic, Bio-Sorcerology
HMSS Silvana
For TSAB FutureTech Laboratories

Noise, Kha, you forgot noise, While I like to think AMF as a simple superposition problem, what Erio and Keroko suggested can be and is very easily archived through noise too. Then things like EFI will become an envelope and a low-pass filter, and mean while blasting through with raw power still works here too. The theory here is a bit horrid though....

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kha

Ah I see. I hope got it right here... Disordered magical derivatives like Linker Core cannot be further disrupted becuase they are already in a mess, while ordered ones are subjected to the AMF frequency which is of their natural frequency and thus resonate to dissonance. BJs stay intact because of better damping of the magically derived structures. The catch 22 here is that the AMF has to broadcast a wide spectrum of superimposed waves of different frequencies to catch all the different natural frequencies of different magic colors. I hope this it correct...

Not quite what I had in mind, but another plausible theory nonetheless.

For my example, try imagining a spell as ice, and a Linker Core as water. You can melt the ice, turning it into water, but you can't melt water into water, because it already is water.

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

Noise, Kha, you forgot noise, While I like to think AMF as a simple superposition problem, what Erio and Keroko suggested can be and is very easily archived through noise too. Then things like EFI will become an envelope and a low-pass filter, and mean while blasting through with raw power still works here too. The theory here is a bit horrid though....

Vibration through noise or energy. If you notice, whenever a drone boots up his AMF, the field has this wave effect, almost as if its sending constant waves of energy. Hence the vibration theory.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

Noise, Kha, you forgot noise, While I like to think AMF as a simple superposition problem, what Erio and Keroko suggested can be and is very easily archived through noise too. Then things like EFI will become an envelope and a low-pass filter, and mean while blasting through with raw power still works here too. The theory here is a bit horrid though....

Alright summarizing editing summarizing...

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Vibration through noise or energy. If you notice, whenever a drone boots up his AMF, the field has this wave effect, almost as if its sending constant waves of energy. Hence the vibration theory.

I would not consider it as vibration of particles, from a physics point of view, rather then waves. since local vibration in such manner will not interfere with the global structure of a spell.

Now the noise I'm considering is white noise which will muck the decision region of an which samples with a Gausian random noise process.

Originally Posted by Kha

Alright summarizing editing summarizing...

If you are going to cite people use Harvard style only in a medical context use Vancouver style is standard

[Woden]

Wouldn't the spell continue forward while in the "noise" AMF field until it is completely sapped?

*Only has 9th grade physics to go by*

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by Woden

Wouldn't the spell continue forward while in the "noise" AMF field until it is completely sapped?

*Only has 9th physics to go by*

In an analog communications context, yes it will, the structure of the spell will detereate until it has fall apart. However if the mathematical protocals which a spell is been set up as, is send in the manner I expect it to be in - akin to digital, since the samping occurs at a discrete intervals then the spell could in theory be unrecognizable at the next sampling time, thus effectively cancel it.

Just note that with noise the spell cast is still there but it is removed from the equation due to the changes that the original spell undergo.

[Woden]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

In an analog communications context, yes it will, the structure of the spell will detereate until it has fall apart. However if the mathematical protocals which a spell is been set up as, is send in the manner I expect it to be in - akin to digital, since the samping occurs at a discrete intervals then the spell could in theory be unrecognizable at the next sampling time, thus effectively cancel it.

Just note that with noise the spell cast is still there but it is removed from the equation due to the changes that the original spell undergo.

Yet we see the AMF holding various magical attacks at a certain distance while the spell withers. As the attack in episode 3 (Variable Shoot, I believe) doesn't just disappear, shouldn't we should be able to perceive the continued motion of the attack?

[Nightengale]

It also variantly in a sense, should depend on the particular output of the released magical energy in the form of waves, because if that is similarly in the case, shouldn't differing frequencies allow the AMF to be bypassed in the form of shifting waves in it's own variants with the sound flux and stimulus response on how the AMF detects the release of magical energy?

Eek. It's so hard to try and remember those physics stuff they teach in university/school, especially when I haet them so much.

You know, talking about Linker Cores, it makes one wonder on the particular singularity and frequency of mages, possibly even hereditary traits passed on from their magical circuits that run in the blood. Fate's magical talent from Precia alongside the masterful capability of elemental thunder conversion is one example, but what perplexes me for one is Yuuno's apparently unique construction where in a state where he clearly didn't use any magic at all, he self-transformed into a ferret not of his own will, which means that there's a possibility that his Linker Core magical construction bypasses any magical use of energy when using shapeshifting, and allows him to shapeshift without the use of any magical energy, unlike the Lieze twins which obviously needed the use of magic constantly that broke off upon magical binding.