The fact of the matter was, Sai didn't hesitate from vouching Sasuke's wherabouts and location with any concern for Naruto's feelings. Giving him his info and his location in the name of his village is called betrayal. If Sai cared, he wouldn't have brought it up in front of Naruto that the village had the info he needed to find Sasuke, but he insisted he act on accord to the villages rules instead of Naruto's feelings about it. Sai asked Naruto why he took a beating and questioned Naruto's bond with Sasuke yet again and was inconsiderate once again on how much Sasuke's life means to him.
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Okay sorry, that was a typo.
He never said that. Chapter and page number.
Chapter and page number because I can't find it. Do you mean the bit where Sai is talking to Kakashi alone? He simply asked why Naruto was going through so much trouble. He never said Sasuke needed to die.
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He said why do Naruto and Sakura concern themselves with a person that causes them nothing but pain and discomfort, he wanted to know why this bond is stronger than anything he's experieced. He still doubts Naruto and Sakura's friendship with Sasuke, and now he wants him dead along with Shikamaru and the rest of the village, he stated this when he talked to Sakura.
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Speculation? I gave you the bloody reference.
Never took it seriously? Then why did he list it alongside very important failures such as "I couldn't save my friend" and "I failed to protect my student and my teacher". It clearly meant a lot to him. Incidently the second one parrelels with Naruto and and the thrid one half parrelels.
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I don't see how that parrellels Naruto with Jiraya, last I checked he has no student and We know that as a matter of a fact the panel in which Ero-sennin mentions being rejected by Tsunade is taken as some kind of proof that Naruto should succeed on getting Sakura, never mind the possibility of it reflecting that Ero-sennin's failure in love can also be attributed to the fact he didn't move on even though he knew Tsunade's heart belonged to another man, in the same fashion Naruto knows Sakura's belongs to Sasuke. But there's a part of the picture that becomes greatly ignored (along with a significant portion of Ero-sennin's part) when it comes to this, Tsunade's part.
We know that unlike Ero-sennin, Tsunade did succeed in love, but failed in protecting her lover in the same fashion she failed to protect her little brother, logically for Sakura, in order to surpass Tsunade she has to succeed at protecting both Sasuke and Naruto (part 1 reference, part 2 reference) and in love as well (part 1 reference <- rings a bell on SS fans?, part 2 reference <-same question). Such thing is far inconvenient for NS, so a tactic that is used is to ignore the parallel with Dan and Nawaki (the most important people on Tsunade's life) and give a full focus on Ero-sennin.
Part of the tactic consists on using this manga page to say there's a confirmed parallel between Naruto and Ero-sennin, which is true; then use this page again to say there's a confirmed manga parallel between Sakura and Tsunade, which happens to be true as well; and lastly to make the claim that in the face of these confirmed parallels the parallel Naruto and Sasuke share with Nawaki and Dan is fan-made interpretation at best, this is the part where the BS begins.
For starters, there is a confirmed parallel between Naruto and Nawaki (page 1, page 2, page 3, page 4) and it's not just for their dream of becoming Hokage, but for their appearance and enthusiasm as well, you could even say they share the nindo when we see that Tsunade has lectured both on how men don't take back their word. I'll later ellaborate on how Naruto's parallel with Nawaki nukes the attempt at putting JiraTsuna and NS as parallel romantic pairings.
For Sasuke and Dan (this one actually does direct damage to the JiraTsuna thing), we only need to answer some questions... who was the man Ero-sennin knew he couldn't compete against for Tsunade's heart? Dan. Who's the young man Naruto knows he can't compete against for Sakura's heart? Sasuke. Who's the person for whom Tsunade cried more than for Ero-sennin? Dan. Who's the person for whom Sakura cired the most in the manga? Sasuke (now you aren't expecting me to search of ALL those instances, aren't you?) Who's the person whose loss ultimately crushed Tsunade and caused her into deserting Konoha? Dan again. Who's the young man with whom Sakura was willing to leave Konoha for the sake of not losing him? Sasuke again, quite an irony, Sasuke himself kept Sakura from repeating one of Tsunade's big mistakes, and instead of being applauded for that deed he gets bashed until no end for the sake of making NS believable.
With these panels set, the fact Naruto and Sasuke do in fact share a parallel with Nawaki and Dan should be clear, along with the places they hold to Sakura.
Now, it is expected to see Naruto sharing parallels with Ero-sennin and Nawaki... but how about if I told you guys, that Ero-sennin also happens to have his own parallels with Nawaki? That is from Tsunade's point of view obviously. First of all let's take a look at the way Kishimoto decided to have both of them KIA:
-Before death occurs, there are conversations with Tsunade and they talk about protecting the village, what it means to be Hokage, the possibility of death in the battlefield and the grandfather-grandson bonding is mentioned (for obvious reasons Ero-sennin and Nawaki have theirs places of this bond switched). 2 conversations in Nawaki's case, during his birthday (page 1, page 2, remember that he hit the bucket the day after) and on an unspecified date (most likely before his birthday); and one conversation in Ero-sennin's case (keep reading until page 13).
-Both of their deaths occurred in the battlefield shortly after their talks, while Tsunade was far away from them, and Tsunade learned of those deaths through messengers in Konoha and leaving behind items that become important to the main plot. In Nawaki's case said object is the necklace, Ero-sennin on his side left the code, a living Ame nin and the corpse of Paindara.
-After Tsunade learned of their respective deaths, she takes a moment to grieve, and afterwards she finds within that pain the resolve to do what she must. Here's Nawaki's case (read the next page also), which leads her into proposing the use of medic nin in 4-man cells; Ero-sennin's death, the chapter after we saw her crying for him she does the movements necessary so Konoha starts getting information out of the things Ero-sennin left (read the pages after this one).
With all these elements into consideration, it seems that Jiraiya's bond was more of a family bond than a romantic bond for Tsunade, not only on how Dan bested him as a suitor, but for the fact Kishimoto has decided to kill him in a fashion that is extremely similar to Nawaki's.
Now, if people aren't convinced yet, then let's take a look at the whole chapter 405, we all can agree this chapter was focused on Naruto grieving over Ero-sennin's death, the death of someone who became family to him. Naruto's sequence has flashbacks of his days with Ero-sennin, followed by a moment of solitude and tears that could no longer be held back. And what was what Tsunade got in the space she was allowed to hold in the same chapter? Flashbacks of her moments with Ero-sennin (first, second, notice that despite Tsunade having 2 flashback moments, Naruto's flashback panels are almost the same as Tsunade's [8-7]), a moment of solitude (shorter than Naruto's I must say), and lastly, tears that can no longer be held back.
Seeing the astonishing similarity both sequences from the same chapter, and that one is explicitly confirmed to be about the loss of a family bond (Naruto), it doesn't take a genius to realize the same applies to the second, but there's something else that must be noted, look at the panel in which Tsunade cries for Ero-sennin's death, it bears great resemblance with the tears she shed in the graveyard where Nawaki was buried, same angle to show Tsunade crying, and there's even the same double trail of tears on her right eye, and on top of that, look at this page again, Tsunade's memories aren't focused on the days when Ero-sennin was a man, they go back to the moment in which he was a 12 year old kid (the same age Nawaki had when he died), and his last panel also has him smiling in the same fashion Nawaki used to smile with Tsunade.
So where's this supposed JiraTsuna romance when in fact Tsunade's point of view completely portrays her relationship with Ero-sennin as basically the same as hers with her little brother? To put it simple, nowhere, even if we wanted to put Ero-sennin's side of the coin into play, for his point of view makes it clear he wasn't the one to be in love with Tsunade, and his failure stands on not moving on even if he already did the first step of acknowledging the fact Tsunade's heart belonged to another man.
So we now apply the complete parallels to Naruto and Sakura, and what should we get? Naruto having a lingering crush on Sakura even if he's already acknowledged her heart belongs to Sasuke (check), if he wants to overcome Ero-sennin he has to give the second step by moving on and finding a girl who can truly love him (still debatable); and on Sakura's side we get that she views Naruto as a somewhat annoying little brother (still debatable), and in order to overcome Tsunade she has to succeed by protecting both him and the love of her life (check).
Pity for NS, had Ero-sennin's death occurred with him going back to Konoha to give the message to Tsunade with his last breath as she desperately tried to save his life perhaps JiraTsuna would have had the romantic indications needed to make it look like a romantic predecessor, but with the way things turned out, it seems more like a family bond predecessor. At the end of the day, the whole deal of giving JiraTsuna a "romantic pairing" status that precedes NS is no more than the result of a systematic use of selective memory and very personal interpretations, but then again, aren't those 2 ingredients what make the art of forging NS moments where there are none?
A long-time used parallel that consists on using the corruptable pieces of the Sannin parallel and ignoring the not convenient ones along with Tsunade's actual feelings. It got destroyed when Kishimoto decided to kill Ero-seenin in a way that held a great resemblance with Nawaki (family bond to Tsunade), rather than making a parallel with Dan (romantic bond to Tsunade), and afterwards Tsunade's reaction got to fit perfectly with the one she had after Nawaki died and with Naruto's own reaction.
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He did say that men aren't meant to be happy, but he gave up. Naruto doesn't believe the same. Naruto is meant to surpass him. Besides, doesn't the fact that he said men aren't supposed to be happy mean that he did take it seriously?
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I think Kishimoto knows that Naruto and Sakura are nothing but friends in a brother/sister fashion. He hasn't really expolred the Naruto and Sakura friendship as strong as the Naruto and Sasuke friendship without bringing a third party into consideration. Naruto goals have nothing to do with Sakura, apparently Naruto never brings up Sakura in his list to do things as a main character destined for greatness. Jiraya ironically failed at achieving his goals which was a list of his failures. Naruto's goal isn't to win Sakura.
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Sai clearly thinks otherwise.
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Sai is much of a social retard as Naruto once was.
Naruto didn't explain he longs for Sakura, he just said he can't confess and nothing more.
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And Sai managed to convince Sakura, too.
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Sai's wrong, I'm telling you. He is loyal to Danzou after all, you might as well call him a chaotic hero.
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The only one who isn't conviced it isn't a childish crush is you.
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It is a childish crush. Approaching the same girl and telling her she's the exact same way she was in part 1 when you come back 3 years with a sage means he's not serious about a relationship.
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But wait, didn't you admit yourself that it will need to be resolved, just like Hinata's confession?
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But it will be resolved in a manner that isn't what your anticipating.
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You did...
By getting back Sasuke? You admitted yourself that was one of themes. Now you seem to be going back on that...
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It's a theme and a goal of his, not Sakura.
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Sakura and Tsunade have the same personality. EXACTLY the same.
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So does Karui and Karin. Except Tsunade's is more tomboyish than Sakura and is more greedy and tougher. Sakura is more emotional and very much outgoing.
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Sakura is also considered a prodigy in healing just like Tsunade
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So Kabuto and Shizune is parrelels to Tsunade?
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Sakura had a member in her team that was constantly trying to get with her.
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Did Tsunade have a rock lee.
Not in the traditional sense.
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Chiyo alongside many other charactesr recogise how similar they are and yet you say there is no parralel.
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Other characters know she worked under the medic sannin and simply imply she has potential. It doesn't mean that she's the chip off the old block in every way considering Tsunade was a medic genius and a world reowned kunoichi who basis her talents on being the grandaughter of the world famous Shodai.
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not only that you say that Sakura is a Tsunade clone and STILL reject the idea that they parralel.
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Just because she's a clone doesn't mean she's a virtual indentity of Tsunade. She has no backround, no feats that put her above any of her class mates in anyting(Sasuke and Naruto), she's not considered an equal to Sasuke and Naruto and she's not well known like Naruto is while J man and Tsunade were famous in equal terms.
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And that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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You just nitpick to much, which is why theres no way Tsunade and Sakura are direct parrelels in the traditional sense.
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You think the fact that Sakura was normal and Tsunade was the the descendant of the first hokage is such a major difference?
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Yep. Everyone of Naruto's family was a elite and powerful world leader or legend. Same with Sasuke. Sakura? She came froma normal family and because she was the smarty of the rookies she was on Naruto and Sasuke's team, has nothing to do with being a ninja who came from a impressive ninja clan or person.
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So far the fact that she's the descendant of the first hokage hasn't amounted to much besides giving her a bit resolve here and there.
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She's the one who became Hokage under the direct recomedation of her colleage and her past, and the one who knows Naruto's parents, and her clan the senjus ties with the current plot. Unlike Sakura, she's a part of the plot and a serious contributor for Naruto's development.
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But my point still stands. "Getting the girl" can't possibly apply to Hinata.
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Why not? Hinata shares similarities with Naruto's mom and Tsunade somewhat. Hinata has Kushina's hairstyle and homemaking trait, and she like Tsunade is from a royal bloodline that is Konoha's oldest clan. But anywhy, Hinata is based on a Yamato Nadeshiko sterotype, it's only logical to make her the wife of an important figure in the manga.
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Don't knock down straw men. I told you the next generation will always surpass the last.
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So what your saying is, each new generation witll surpass the old by succeeding in what the old gen failed at, well then Hinata will succeed in getting the man she wants because her clan was based on an opressive system of indirect clan matters with the village in terms of how the Hyuuga performed actions within the villages jurisdiction(sp)? Hinata will be the one who unites the Hyuuga's with the villagers on equal terms due to marrying a guy with a Bijuu and a lineage to the 4th because no one in the clan has married outside of the clan before with a political representation of a clan.
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It's the theme of the bloody manga. It's been hinted at time and time again.
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And I explained before, Sakura isn't Naruto's goal or dream. Therefore isn't a part of his theme.
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You accepted it yourself when you said that getting Sasuke back was one of the themes. And it's been hinted over and over again how Sasuke will surpass Itachi and how Naruto has surpassed Kakashi and everything else.
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Sasuke needs the strongest abilty of the sharingan to surpass his brother. And still Sasuke needs to be smarter, and better at Itachi before he surpasses him same with Naruto. Themes can fluctate in different ways according to what Kishimoto is writing.
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Same thing according to Hinata.
Whatever, my point still stands anyway.
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Wait? What?
2009-10-06, 01:04
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Again youre making your own stance on Naruto
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