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Old 2016-03-17, 16:42   Link #1441
Kusaja
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Not too surprisingly, I don't entirely agree with that interpretation. It all depends on what any given viewer wanted out of Lelouch's character in the first place and how each of us had already approached his changing mindset and perspectives, both moral and otherwise, during the events of the first season. Which didn't exactly end by leaving him in a positive or constructive state. In fact, he became increasingly desperate and extreme in his actions, which the death of Euphemia and the kidnapping of Nunnally only reinforced, instead of critically examining his behavior and choosing another plan.

Taking that into consideration...would a second season make Lelouch continue down the self-destructive path he started to embrace around the time of the Black Rebellion? Some people might have sincerely hoped for the opposite, but I always felt that was a real possibility and the show itself, one way or another, ultimately resumed this approach and simply took the character's arc to one of its potential conclusions. Considering the staff had already decided on Lelouch's fate at some indeterminate point before R2, I'd tend to doubt there was much of a realistic chance for any other alternative outcome in the eyes of the production team.

Therefore, the argument that Lelouch was "maturing" at the start of R2 can be debated. One point of view could ostensibly frame it this way, but there was also a very childish aspect to his attitude at that time: Lelouch wanted to have his cake and eat it. After his crisis in R2 episode 7, Lelouch hoped to turn back the clock and return to Ashford to be with his friends after the war. It all sounds very nice and happy, on paper, but is that really a sign of maturity? I don't think so. It was, arguably, a case of simplistic self-delusion on his part.

That can be seen as the actual regression, rather than what came later. Instead of facing the consequences of his actions and continuing straight ahead no matter the cost, like the end of the first season had established, Lelouch was now idealistically expecting that Britannia could be defeated at little or no personal cost to himself and his loved ones. Which was frankly too innocent and quite overreaching. Especially because Lelouch already knew that this struggle could be dangerous and painful. All the subsequent events of R2 did was to violently remind him of this reality. He couldn't run away and hide in the school to live a normal life at the end of his journey. I don't think the creators of Code Geass meant for that to be the right answer.

In light of this, it's neither unusual nor illogical for Lelouch to once again react with impulsiveness and emotion as things started getting worse around him rather than acting with pure reason. He never was a "cold" thinker in the first place and even his most "constructive" ideals had been based on his own personal feelings, rather than on any sort of calm intellectual ability. We had already seen just how vulnerable Lelouch could be and R2 simply exploited those gaps. That said, Lelouch might not be most mentally stable person in the world, but I think it's a rather overstated exaggeration to consider him a true "narcissist" or "psychopath" when compared to far more mentally broken individuals who more accurately reflect such descriptions. Admittedly, he did constantly suffer from delusions of grandeur. To say the least, one would imagine several of Zero's speeches wouldn't be so bold and pretentious if he weren't that type of person.

The second half of R2 did, admittedly, lack good pacing and the execution was often sloppy when it came to certain episodes or sequences. We all know that. I won't discuss ZR at length here, because it was literally the single most debated topic on this aging forum back in the day, and those who disagreed about it back then will still do so today. But I will say that the exact number and nature of the plan's casualties largely remain unspecified. After the war against the BK/UFN forces handed him global dominance, we saw only a brief glimpse of how Emperor Lelouch's dictatorship relied on the threat of violent repression, but absolutely nothing suggested there was any need for the German-style campaigns of genocide involving the organized concentration and extermination of millions of people.
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Old 2016-07-30, 16:00   Link #1442
Voltron-Zero
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brunswick, GA United States
Lelouch - winner & Suzaku - LOSER!!!!!

I mostly agree with Lelouch
In War you got to get your hands dirty or do something you morally would never do
It's just what we do, fight and kill
It's HUMAN NATURE (gives Suzaku the EVIL EYE, comically anyway)

And that's why I have to disagree with Suzaku
The dude is an IDIOT...SUPREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sometimes to me he is just a self-justifying hypocrite
He thought he was right but in my opinion, he was WRONG!!!!

(I wish I could punch him the same way Kallen laid it on him)

LELOUCH X KALLEN FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 2016-08-17, 18:05   Link #1443
azul120
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I agree. That does appear to be a theme in his stories, even Wolf's Rain, Space Dandy, RahXephon, and Eureka Seven touch on that cynicism in my opinion.



I agree that during the Zilcho Retardium the morality of the story took a nose dive into idiocy with the expansion of Lelouch's selfishness and destructive tendencies, but that was more for effect than anything else. The writers were obviously trying to create drama in an already drama-thick storyline so they had to amp up both of those aspects of Lelouch to pull it off.
I said it here years ago that I thought it was dumb and I still think it was a cheap way to try and wrap up R2. It could have had the same ending but executed much...much better.
They didn't need to turn him into a Narcissistic-Psychopath with delusions of grandeur, but they did (I don't know if it was Okouchi or Taniguichi or a combination of both) and the result was the Zero Requiem which you and I both think was excessive and rather stupid.
When Crimsonbitter made the comment about Lelouch being childish and petty back in 2014, I was pointing out that he was that way in S1 and he did mature at the start of R2, only to go back to being childish and immature (to the extreme) in the Zero Requiem. So the character evolves, then regresses back to what he was in S1. I assume that is due to the fact that Okouchi and Taniguichi had already wrote the Zero Requiem before they finished R2. They knew where they wanted the story to go, but R2 as a whole didn't compliment that story very well in my opinion.
Crimsonbitter made some excellent points about the weaknesses in the storyline overall in R2, and certainly I agree with much of his statement. Though I disagree about Lelouch not deserving the Geass. I think that since it was written into the story as a curse, and thus a negative thing, Lelouch did deserve it. He is an anti-hero after all and thus his power should be both a blessing and a curse. That part of the story was done quite well and contributed to the selfishness of Lelouch's character. The manner in which he abuses the Geass (and causes Euphie's death by accident) was a great way of showing just how childish Lelouch was. He didn't consider the dangers of his power until after that event (which is how he started to grow). Of course, that was S1. R2 deviates from that when he goes on a Geass-binge and enslaves his whole family, most of the Britainnian forces, and concocts the Zilcho Retardium in which he murders unknown numbers of innocent people so he can bring peace and a new order to the world...which sounds an awful lot like the morality of a German dictator from the 1930s to me.

I hope that answers your inquiry azul120.
Oh I agree pretty much. Though I'd argue it befitted the psychology of a person who'd lost it at the end, haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusaja View Post
Not too surprisingly, I don't entirely agree with that interpretation. It all depends on what any given viewer wanted out of Lelouch's character in the first place and how each of us had already approached his changing mindset and perspectives, both moral and otherwise, during the events of the first season. Which didn't exactly end by leaving him in a positive or constructive state. In fact, he became increasingly desperate and extreme in his actions, which the death of Euphemia and the kidnapping of Nunnally only reinforced, instead of critically examining his behavior and choosing another plan.

Taking that into consideration...would a second season make Lelouch continue down the self-destructive path he started to embrace around the time of the Black Rebellion? Some people might have sincerely hoped for the opposite, but I always felt that was a real possibility and the show itself, one way or another, ultimately resumed this approach and simply took the character's arc to one of its potential conclusions. Considering the staff had already decided on Lelouch's fate at some indeterminate point before R2, I'd tend to doubt there was much of a realistic chance for any other alternative outcome in the eyes of the production team.

Therefore, the argument that Lelouch was "maturing" at the start of R2 can be debated. One point of view could ostensibly frame it this way, but there was also a very childish aspect to his attitude at that time: Lelouch wanted to have his cake and eat it. After his crisis in R2 episode 7, Lelouch hoped to turn back the clock and return to Ashford to be with his friends after the war. It all sounds very nice and happy, on paper, but is that really a sign of maturity? I don't think so. It was, arguably, a case of simplistic self-delusion on his part.

That can be seen as the actual regression, rather than what came later. Instead of facing the consequences of his actions and continuing straight ahead no matter the cost, like the end of the first season had established, Lelouch was now idealistically expecting that Britannia could be defeated at little or no personal cost to himself and his loved ones. Which was frankly too innocent and quite overreaching. Especially because Lelouch already knew that this struggle could be dangerous and painful. All the subsequent events of R2 did was to violently remind him of this reality. He couldn't run away and hide in the school to live a normal life at the end of his journey. I don't think the creators of Code Geass meant for that to be the right answer.

In light of this, it's neither unusual nor illogical for Lelouch to once again react with impulsiveness and emotion as things started getting worse around him rather than acting with pure reason. He never was a "cold" thinker in the first place and even his most "constructive" ideals had been based on his own personal feelings, rather than on any sort of calm intellectual ability. We had already seen just how vulnerable Lelouch could be and R2 simply exploited those gaps. That said, Lelouch might not be most mentally stable person in the world, but I think it's a rather overstated exaggeration to consider him a true "narcissist" or "psychopath" when compared to far more mentally broken individuals who more accurately reflect such descriptions. Admittedly, he did constantly suffer from delusions of grandeur. To say the least, one would imagine several of Zero's speeches wouldn't be so bold and pretentious if he weren't that type of person.

The second half of R2 did, admittedly, lack good pacing and the execution was often sloppy when it came to certain episodes or sequences. We all know that. I won't discuss ZR at length here, because it was literally the single most debated topic on this aging forum back in the day, and those who disagreed about it back then will still do so today. But I will say that the exact number and nature of the plan's casualties largely remain unspecified. After the war against the BK/UFN forces handed him global dominance, we saw only a brief glimpse of how Emperor Lelouch's dictatorship relied on the threat of violent repression, but absolutely nothing suggested there was any need for the German-style campaigns of genocide involving the organized concentration and extermination of millions of people.
I never argued Lelouch could retire to an idyllic life afterwards. The ideal end would have been for him to continue on as Zero for eternity.
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