Chinese Culture Discussion Thread

[kuroishinigami]

I'm interested in Confucianism myself in Chinese culture. Rituals aside, I really think there's a lot of great teaching in Confucianism on how to be a good person. I wonder why it's getting more and more left behind by modern generation of Chinese citizen?

[Chaos2Frozen]

I remember my history teacher back in secondary school said something along the lines of "Confucianism is pretty much common sense" lol

Oh wait, I think it was more like why Confucianism is a Philosophy while the Others are a religion...

[kuroishinigami]

Indeed, yet the good value of confucianism is almost completely gone even in modern Chinese society. Loyalty is as good as gone except in name, etiquette less practiced as time goes by, xin(integrity) start getting ignored, ren(humaneness) considered less and less important than material gain.

I personally respect these aspects of confucianism myself, but I wonder as I grow up, is this virtue mentioned in the teaching get left behind because it no longer fit with our current society, or is there some other reason.

[Kokukirin]

While I have utmost respect for Confucius as a teacher, I am somewhat skeptical of Confucianism, or at least part of it.

The Confucianism that was followed for centuries in China is not exactly the philosophy taught by Confucius. During Han Dynasty, it was selected as a tool to strengthen the central rule of the emperor because of Confucianism's idea of respecting elders and superiors. Han Dynasty basically abolished other schools of philosophy and strongly promoted a version of Confucianism that put more emphasis on loyalty. It was more or less a thought control tool, although not without many virtues of Confucianism. It was quite successful too, as most dynasties henceforth had much stronger control over the country than the early Han and Zhou Dynasties.

So you can understand why early Communists hated Confucianism. They believed in class warfare and equality, and Confucianism's emphasis on loyalty and respect was opposite of that.

But because of the utter dominance of Confucianism in Chinese history, other schools of teaching were suppressed or at best partly survived. It effectively ended development in many area in philosophy and other subjects. Other schools such as Legalism and Mohism could have offered much more to Chinese philosophical thinking, politics and economics. We could have seen more emphasis in rule by law and greater social mobility, perhaps even greater advances in math and engineering.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

There are some aspects of Chinese food "culture" that I despise, such as the consumption of live monkey brain.

Welcome to Qing Dynasty, when we kowtow to our Manchu lords.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

So, here's a question. I've been talking to the Chinese owner/bartender of a restaurant I frequent and she mentioned that she's happy to be having her baby in the US because Chinese traditions in this regard are very harsh. Said something along the lines of not being allowed to wash her hair for a month afterward among other things I have unfortunately forgotten. I'm curious to know more but would rather not bring it back up with her in case it's a sensitive subject, so if anyone knows anything about this, can you elaborate?

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

Mrs. ES did that when our daughter was born. She didn't wash her hair or take a shower for a whole month. Her traditional-leaning mom insisted on it even though we lived in Southern California. I was so thankful when she started bathing again, the stench was something awful.

Endless "Noseplugs" Soul

Ah. That would be just one of the things a new mother is not supposed to do, as part of the custom of a month-long postpartum confinement period after childbirth. It doesn't just end with not washing the hair; the new mother is supposed to take certain foods and refrain from certain exercises, supposedly to restore her health after the ordeal.

This custom is increasingly falling out of favour as being obsolete, though conservative families might still insist on it. I'm not sure about the certain foods or certain activities, but the no-washing-of-hair thing is just a custom for the sake of custom these days. It used to have a point when avoiding wet hair is meant to avoid the mother catching a potentially fatal flu in the chilly climate, but theses days... eh.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Indeed, yet the good value of confucianism is almost completely gone even in modern Chinese society. Loyalty is as good as gone except in name, etiquette less practiced as time goes by, xin(integrity) start getting ignored, ren(humaneness) considered less and less important than material gain.

I personally respect these aspects of confucianism myself, but I wonder as I grow up, is this virtue mentioned in the teaching get left behind because it no longer fit with our current society, or is there some other reason.

You can always adapt it to the modern times!

You can be loyal - only to the one that gives you benefits.
You can have etiquette - as long as it helps you maintain a gentleman's (君子) image.
You can have integrity - in any situation that is easy for you to show.
You can be humane - so long as the other party isn't a complete asshole.

This is called neo-Confucianism. *sarcastic*

[TinyRedLeaf]

I might as well move in this set of posts, dating back to July 2010, from the News Stories thread.

Synopsis

1) Basically, Doraneko cited academic sources showing that Cantonese — not Mandarin, ie, putonghua — was very likely the original "language" of China during the Sui (AD 581–618) and Tang (AD 618–907) dynasties.

2) Preserved "rhyming dictionaries" from both dynasties are available to prove this theory.

3) Now, the Japanese borrowed heavily from Chinese culture during the mainland's Tang dynasty. Among its imports were Buddhism and the Chinese script (hanzi, which became kanji in Japan).

4) And that is why the "Chinese" pronunciations of some Japanese kanji (ie, onyomi) sound very similar to modern Cantonese.

5) The most obvious example would be the very simple 了解 （"I understand"). It is pronounced ryokai in Japanese, which is remarkably similar to the Cantonese liukai.

==========
(A)

Originally Posted by Doraneko

Cantonese, which was the official language in Sui Dynasty (and likely Tang Dynasty), was forced to take shelter in the South due to the invasion from the North during the era of Southern and Northern Dynasties (AD 420 to 589).

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Do you have a source for that claim? It's something that I have long suspected, that the language spoken during the Tang dynasty was either Cantonese, or a dialect of Cantonese (yes, dialects of Cantonese do exist; the Dongguan variant is almost unintelligible to those familiar only with the Hong Kong variant, for example).

However, I've never been able to find any academic material to back the suspicion.

An explanation of Cantonese pronunciation
Originally Posted by Doraneko

There are academic sources for that, but I have no access to university databases right now so it may be difficult to locate the sources.

Anyway here is an excerpt from the book of Li Chen (陳澧), a well acclaimed linguistic expert in the 17th century (Qing Dynasty). The excerpt is in classical Chinese.

廣州音說 (An explanation of Cantonese pronunciation)

Modern linguists also support Chen's view. Systematic examination of Sui Yun and Tang Yun shows that modern Cantonese retains the most elements of ancient pronunciations, when compared to the other six major Chinese dialects.

Other online sources on the issue:

> 移民不斷南下古粵語一體化有跡可尋
(The Assimilation of ancient Chinese into Cantonese can be traced to the migration towards the South)
周雲《文匯報》〈文匯首頁‧副刊‧百家廊〉2009年2月1日
http://www.cantoneseculture.com/page...90201_001.aspx

> 粵語形成於古廣信
(Cantonese originated from Ancient Guangxin*) [*in Central China]
羅康寧《中國評論學術出版社》（網上開卷 ─— 粵語與珠江文化）2004年7月
http://www.cantoneseculture.com/page...mTo/index.aspx

(B)

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The correlation of some Cantonese words with the equivalent words in Japanese seems compelling, but that's all it is: correlation, not confirmation.

Originally Posted by Doraneko

The same applies to my claim on the preservation of Cantonese/Ancient Chinese stopped-syllables (ie, syllables with checked tones) in Japanese.

Again, I cannot give you a reliable source at this point, but there are ample academic evidence supporting that. Anyway here is a quote from the Japanese Wikipedia article on stopped-syllables:
入声 (Checked tones)
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/入声

A Google search found an article with a similar view. However the academic also pointed out that although the "fu, ku, tsu, chi, ki" suffixes can be traced back to the stopped syllables, not every single syllable is adopted in such a way. Part of them become sokuon (促音):

入声韻尾消失の過程
(The Process of Disappearance of Checked Tone Syllable Coda)
http://uwazura.up.seesaa.net/ando_ko...E4C6FEC0BC.pdf


Further reading:
Entering tone in Sino-Xenic (Japanese)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checked_tone#Japanese

[kaizerknight01]

in term of philosophical term I do think Laozi is much more complex than Confucius IMO

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

You can always adapt it to the modern times!

You can be loyal - only to the one that gives you benefits.
You can have etiquette - as long as it helps you maintain a gentleman's (君子) image.
You can have integrity - in any situation that is easy for you to show.
You can be humane - so long as the other party isn't a complete asshole.

This is called neo-Confucianism. *sarcastic*

Yes, this is the trend that I observed nowadays. The modern "scholar" only shows to apply confucianism on the surface while doing exactly the opposite behind. And sometimes, it's not the fault of either party either. It's hard to be loyal nowadays, since it's hard to find a "master" that is willing to consider your advise and won't throw you away at the first sign of difficulties(which is the kind of master that Confucius expect us to be loyal to). It's hard to blame the "master" too, it's hard to be loyal to your subordinate when your subordinate will jump away at the slightest opportunity with better material gain.

Which is why it's even more depressing. Even though we've been show the solution by an ancient philosopher, why is it so hard for the Chinese that's been doctrinated about it all their life to apply it. You can't expect your opposition to lower the gun if you don't lower the gun first. Someone has to start somewhere.

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

While I have utmost respect for Confucius as a teacher, I am somewhat skeptical of Confucianism, or at least part of it.

The Confucianism that was followed for centuries in China is not exactly the philosophy taught by Confucius. During Han Dynasty, it was selected as a tool to strengthen the central rule of the emperor because of Confucianism's idea of respecting elders and superiors. Han Dynasty basically abolished other schools of philosophy and strongly promoted a version of Confucianism that put more emphasis on loyalty. It was more or less a thought control tool, although not without many virtues of Confucianism. It was quite successful too, as most dynasties henceforth had much stronger control over the country than the early Han and Zhou Dynasties.

So you can understand why early Communists hated Confucianism. They believed in class warfare and equality, and Confucianism's emphasis on loyalty and respect was opposite of that.

But because of the utter dominance of Confucianism in Chinese history, other schools of teaching were suppressed or at best partly survived. It effectively ended development in many area in philosophy and other subjects. Other schools such as Legalism and Mohism could have offered much more to Chinese philosophical thinking, politics and economics. We could have seen more emphasis in rule by law and greater social mobility, perhaps even greater advances in math and engineering.

You're right, just like any large ruling party, the Han dynasty ruler does deliberately bend the true nature of Confucianism(just like how a lot of modern government willingly bend a religion's teaching to suit their personal need) to create subservient mass in their time. But with more and more information available to modern generation of Chinese, I expect them to grow closer and closer toward the true nature of Confucianism(which is all about respecting others as you would respect yourself, be loyal to others like how you want others to be loyal to you, or in modern word, be a classy guy/girl) while leaving the outdated value(the Confucianism value of women might suit the value at his time, but certainly not now), but what I observed was the exact opposite.

Instead of taking the good out of the teaching, a lot of new generation of Chinese forget xin(integrity) while practicing business, and instead of being a quite, self-reflecting, and self-improving gentleman like Confucianism advocated, lots of rich young Chinese nowadays took an arrogant boisterous attitude instead.

As for Confucianism being the reason other philosophical idea such as Legalism or Mohism being surpressed and stunting the growth of ancient Chinese science and engineering, while I agree it's a shame(I'm a science person myself), but I always believe being a good person is more important then growth in science and engineering. I always believe, it's useless if people are surrounded by high-end tech and complicated understanding of the world, yet they don't have the morale to use it for good, and if the morale is being upheld, there will be no need for Legalism because people will always think for the best being of others and act on it instead of following the law because they're afraid of the punishment.

In fact, it's been told that when Confucius rule a city as a magistrate, the citizen doesn't bother to close or lock the door of their house because the citizen have such high morale that almost no crime occurred in the city, and when a crime does occurred, the law enforcer do their best to catch the criminal. I know that this might be too naive, but when you can achieve such a socio-political state when applying Confucianism, Legalism might not be needed again because following the law(or norm) become everyone's expectation of themselves instead of what other expect to a person.



tl;dr : The original Confucianism, while have a lot of outdated value, actually teach us how to be a good man who also will act for their belief, and IMO is the most important value needed from a person.

Originally Posted by kaizerknight01

in term of philosophical term I do think Laozi is much more complex than Confucius IMO

I don't know, I believe whether in philosophy or science, the simpler explanation is actually more important then the complex one, unless the complexity is absolutely necessary.

Taoism is indeed much more complex than Confucianism, but Taoism touch the spiritualism a little too much IMO, and spiritualism is a little harder to swallow for people because they have their own spiritual belief. Confucianism OTH, is only about social behavior teaching, which is why they are more easily accepted even by the Hui Ethnic of China whose majority are Muslims.

[Magin]

So here's a question that I've asked a couple of Chinese professors of mine, and I'm curious as to others' views on it.

As I'm sure many of you are aware, male children have always been favored over female children, and I think there were even stories of when the 1-child policy was enacted, female children would be killed just so the couple could have another child and hope that it was male. and IIRC, one of the explanations behind this was because in marriage, you would be "losing a daughter" and therefore losing a body that could help out with maintaining a family. So the part I've never understood is this: what's the point of having/wanting only male children, when it's only the females that can actually reproduce? The way this idea works, it sounds like you'd be getting rid of the way to make more children.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Magin

So here's a question that I've asked a couple of Chinese professors of mine, and I'm curious as to others' views on it.

As I'm sure many of you are aware, male children have always been favored over female children, and I think there were even stories of when the 1-child policy was enacted, female children would be killed just so the couple could have another child and hope that it was male. and IIRC, one of the explanations behind this was because in marriage, you would be "losing a daughter" and therefore losing a body that could help out with maintaining a family. So the part I've never understood is this: what's the point of having/wanting only male children, when it's only the females that can actually reproduce? The way this idea works, it sounds like you'd be getting rid of the way to make more children.

This has been a custom historically for a long time, all over the world. This is because traditionally, only males inherit everything (and first borns at that). This is true in pretty much every country that was once a monarchy. A family's 'name' is passed down through male children (because the kids always take the father's last name). This tradition has pretty much kept on, especially since now that you can only have 1 child, most people want it to be a male child so their name gets passed on.

[LeoXiao]

Daughters are fine unless you can't produce any sons that live to adulthood. Economics are where it's at; daughters end up being a net loss for whoever has to raise them. Weirdly enough you even had to give a dowry to the family of the groom; if anything it ought to have been the other way around to compensate the bride's parents for losing their daughter.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Daughters are fine unless you can't produce any sons that live to adulthood. Economics are where it's at; daughters end up being a net loss for whoever has to raise them. Weirdly enough you even had to give a dowry to the family of the groom; if anything it ought to have been the other way around to compensate the bride's parents for losing their daughter.

the groom side of the family is also suppose to give gifts to the bride side.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the groom side of the family is also suppose to give gifts to the bride side.

It really depends on the culture I think. I know Indian is having a huge problem with the dowry system they have ingrained into their culture. I think China right now mostly practices bridal price instead:

http://www.ibtimes.com/map-chinas-br...nly-city-where

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

It really depends on the culture I think. I know Indian is having a huge problem with the dowry system they have ingrained into their culture. I think China right now mostly practices bridal price instead:

http://www.ibtimes.com/map-chinas-br...nly-city-where

well this IS the Chinese Culture thread not Asian Culture thread.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I've always wanted to tried western Chinese food to see how 'wrong' they got it

It varies from country to country and the quality of the restaurant itself. Of course, I have no direct experience of the genuine article, though I did eat chinese food in Vancouver (which I think has more "Authentic" chinese cuisine then most cities). Generally, the US is a mixed bag, if you find the right place, you can get a good meal, but most places the food is oversweetened and genericised.

The same can also be said for Britain and Ireland (Britain has better Chinese food then Ireland though, in that several British cities have proper Chinatowns). Interestingly, the manner in which the food is "westernized" is quite different in Britain and the US. For instance, General Tso's Chicken is ubiquitous in the US, and unheard of in Britain/Ireland. On the flipside, our chinese places tend to drench the dishes in immense amounts of sauce, which is again not seen in America. Our Chinese takeaways also commonly sell "Chips" (french fries) alongside the more traditional rice, which most would find rather unusual.

The "wetness" of the Chinese food is particularly interesting, because it corresponds to a predilection for foods in Northwest Britain, Ireland and Scotland for other "wet" food, namely Gravy (very common), Stew and in terms of "chip culture", Chips are often drenched in vinegar. You also have the equally strange phenomenon of "curry chips".

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Confucianism OTH, is only about social behavior teaching, which is why they are more easily accepted even by the Hui Ethnic of China whose majority are Muslims.

I didn't read the other statements in the long post, but this one at the end is quite strange. Back in Qing Dynasty and Republic of China era, Hui was a general term that refers to all Muslims in China, including the Uyghurs. In PRC, all the "other" Muslims get their own ethnic group designation. The remaining ones, consisting mostly Han Chinese who have converted into Muslim (probably many generations back) are now called Hui.

So it is very strange to say that Confucianism is easily accepted by the Hui Ethnic. That's putting things in the wrong order. They were Han Chinese who had Confucianism as part of their culture way back. Muslim on the other hand, is something acquired along the way.

[kuroishinigami]

Ah okay, so that's the reason. Shows you how sketchy my Chinese history knowledge is.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

-Cantonese Pronunciation Theory-

On another note, I think there was something about Sino-Korean being close to what typicial "Chinese" was like back to Han.