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Old 2017-10-01, 12:55   Link #801
Tong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
No punishment? Charioce is now blind and the fact Nina lost her voice is actually another punishment to him. As somebody who can't see he experiences a good portion of the world and especially people through voice. Since Nina is unable to speak Charioce is denied most ways he could be with Nina. Sure, their love prevailed in spite of these and it's nice but don't talk about sensory deprivation as an easy way out. It's torture, especially for a person who used to see. Since we are on a forum this is an interesting thought experiment. It's hard for the seeing to imagine the anguish of the blind, I get it. What if by some reason you can no longer access or even view things from the internet? Let's add inability to use or benefit from telecommunication devices in general to the mix. How would you feel? You still remain in this world with your family and friends but now you're limited to libraries, hearsay and personal meetings. I am sure most people would be able to reorganize their life this way but basically your job is likely over, your social life is practically over or at least altered to a much smaller scale. Yes, you can still be happy. Heck, a simple life like this might be even charming after a while but unless you're a born hermit you'd be damn wish you could use telecommunication methods again. This is the same for blind people. You can live like that, especially if you have people to help but barring a few odd exceptions there aren't any blind people who wouldn't like to actually see the world.
Getting away easy, my arse. This is worse than any punishment that could've incurred on him. Kill him? He outright sought it. Put him on trial, destroy his reputation and jail him? Wouldn't give a damn. Charioce being blind while Nina mute is the punishment that actually stings for him.

Also let's talk about him remaining in power. For starters Charioce only became a king for the purpose of killing Bahamut. He didn't intend to remain so after his mission is done for sure. That probably also eventually became the answer to his growing guilt. He does everything selfishly and will eventually pay with his life for it. Well, guess what? He can't just go out like this. Running away could've been a reward, he's free while being with Nina. But he's bound by Kaisar's death wish and the ongoing political situation now and stuck as a king. Yes, Charioce remaining the king is also a punishment. For him.

Lastly while it may hurt your sense of justice leaving Charioce on the throne was the only reasonable choice. Anything else would only result in more chaos, more deaths and all sides were sick of it. Charioce XVII is a legitimate leader to the government of Anatae, who else would take his place? Jeanne? She's charismatic but not much of a leader and even less of a ruler. Her taking the throne would also lead to several issues given her past or the fact she's connected to the Gods. It'd be viewed as creating a puppet state, for example. We live in a world which has clear examples of how deposing tyrannic leaders won't just magically create peace. It usually leads to a hellhole far worse. It might be shocking to you but in spite of everything Charioce XVII is apparently the best king Anatae had in a long while. He doesn't feel privileged but views kingship as a duty to people, he isn't a paranoiac weak scumbag like the original line of Charioces were, he boosted the economy and technology of the country and he practically won all his wars. From humans' perspective the only issue was that he went against the tradition of revering Gods and that two of his battles were in the capital thus people who experienced loss might blame him (and the Gods). You know, I mentioned Mathias Corvinus before. He's remembered in history as "The Just King" even though he was a massive prick both domestically and internationally. This might help you to illustrate why Charioce have powerful support. You can hate him, you might disagree with the idea of people like him leading a country. In certain fictions such people can be also magically removed and replaced with a super nice ruler pulled out from the writers' sphincter. But saying that Charioce remaining on the throne is stretching it? Yeah, you don't quite get the circumstances.

tl;dr
Charioce is already punished in the one way that actually hurts him. Keeping him on the throne is no reward, either. Also dethroning Charioce realistically would've been far more harmful than the satisfaction you gain from it.
Excellent post
That bold part is what most people do NOT understand how monarchy worked in history.

Which is exactly what I mean by "this is a show you HAVE to THINK about", and not because it's deep or anything, it's just because there's so much to consider, like how politics/government works in the world of Bahamut, the state of humanity after/before the events in Genesis, how each one of the three sides fit into the setting, the nature of people etc.

This is not a shounen where you can just sit, watch and say you didnt like because the ending and events werent tropey like other series.
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Old 2017-10-01, 13:08   Link #802
MgMaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
tl;dr
Charioce is already punished in the one way that actually hurts him. Keeping him on the throne is no reward, either. Also dethroning Charioce realistically would've been far more harmful than the satisfaction you gain from it.
You bring up some good points! Changes ones perspective a bit To that end, I think it would've helped to some degree(or even a lot) if that wasn't left to our interpretation and shown instead. It once against boils down to the major issue that is Chaorice's characterization. Not asking to be spoon fed but a few different facial expressions of anguish & regret, could've done gone a long way.
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Old 2017-10-01, 14:19   Link #803
Blueknight78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
No punishment? Charioce is now blind and the fact Nina lost her voice is actually another punishment to him. As somebody who can't see he experiences a good portion of the world and especially people through voice. Since Nina is unable to speak Charioce is denied most ways he could be with Nina. Sure, their love prevailed in spite of these and it's nice but don't talk about sensory deprivation as an easy way out. It's torture, especially for a person who used to see. Since we are on a forum this is an interesting thought experiment. It's hard for the seeing to imagine the anguish of the blind, I get it. What if by some reason you can no longer access or even view things from the internet? Let's add inability to use or benefit from telecommunication devices in general to the mix. How would you feel? You still remain in this world with your family and friends but now you're limited to libraries, hearsay and personal meetings. I am sure most people would be able to reorganize their life this way but basically your job is likely over, your social life is practically over or at least altered to a much smaller scale. Yes, you can still be happy. Heck, a simple life like this might be even charming after a while but unless you're a born hermit you'd be damn wish you could use telecommunication methods again. This is the same for blind people. You can live like that, especially if you have people to help but barring a few odd exceptions there aren't any blind people who wouldn't like to actually see the world.
Getting away easy, my arse. This is worse than any punishment that could've incurred on him. Kill him? He outright sought it. Put him on trial, destroy his reputation and jail him? Wouldn't give a damn. Charioce being blind while Nina mute is the punishment that actually stings for him.

Also let's talk about him remaining in power. For starters Charioce only became a king for the purpose of killing Bahamut. He didn't intend to remain so after his mission is done for sure. That probably also eventually became the answer to his growing guilt. He does everything selfishly and will eventually pay with his life for it. Well, guess what? He can't just go out like this. Running away could've been a reward, he's free while being with Nina. But he's bound by Kaisar's death wish and the ongoing political situation now and stuck as a king. Yes, Charioce remaining the king is also a punishment. For him.

Lastly while it may hurt your sense of justice leaving Charioce on the throne was the only reasonable choice. Anything else would only result in more chaos, more deaths and all sides were sick of it. Charioce XVII is a legitimate leader to the government of Anatae, who else would take his place? Jeanne? She's charismatic but not much of a leader and even less of a ruler. Her taking the throne would also lead to several issues given her past or the fact she's connected to the Gods. It'd be viewed as creating a puppet state, for example. We live in a world which has clear examples of how deposing tyrannic leaders won't just magically create peace. It usually leads to a hellhole far worse. It might be shocking to you but in spite of everything Charioce XVII is apparently the best king Anatae had in a long while. He doesn't feel privileged but views kingship as a duty to people, he isn't a paranoiac weak scumbag like the original line of Charioces were, he boosted the economy and technology of the country and he practically won all his wars. From humans' perspective the only issue was that he went against the tradition of revering Gods and that two of his battles were in the capital thus people who experienced loss might blame him (and the Gods). You know, I mentioned Mathias Corvinus before. He's remembered in history as "The Just King" even though he was a massive prick both domestically and internationally. This might help you to illustrate why Charioce have powerful support. You can hate him, you might disagree with the idea of people like him leading a country. In certain fictions such people can be also magically removed and replaced with a super nice ruler pulled out from the writers' sphincter. But saying that Charioce remaining on the throne is stretching it? Yeah, you don't quite get the circumstances.

tl;dr
Charioce is already punished in the one way that actually hurts him. Keeping him on the throne is no reward, either. Also dethroning Charioce realistically would've been far more harmful than the satisfaction you gain from it.
as you told being blind only can be a burden if he was a "loner hermit" having peoples to support him, followers to obey his order and having his love at his side even if he can't hear her but still can touch and "sense her" still much better than "die" or jailed by treason as he did with many peoples which tried to go against him, srry but your logic make it's sound which every blind person have a cruel life and hate his life, no i have blind friends(some born and others become) and none of then hate they lifes, they learned to live with it as you told and have a very happy life, then really srry your logic don't sound so "perfect on that point".

in the same way we have exemples of take down the dictator lead to problem, we also have the opposite like france, and others history exemples of "how good is getting hiddling off" crap peoples, otherwise we could still living in countries being "slaves to others countries rulled by tiranes rulers, which could do whatever they want, only few countries still ruled by that sort of peoples and we know how "awesome that places are", srry again while you could have a point this still don't means which the "opposite could work" and take down charioce and put someone else could also worked better and if don't work just dethrone him in the same way you dethrone charioce and any other crap king which history showed being able to put him down.

in the same way we get exemples of cruel peoples being loved we have of peoples being hated, the only difference is how "smart enough they are to proper brainwash they peoples, which not was really charioce strong point since he was only focused in keep the life good for peoples living in capital while peoples around it where suffering and anyone trying to oppositing to him he throw in jail leading to some peoples hating and see him not as the "good king" he was trying to pose only to the rich peoples which where actually the ones which he does care due to need of they economic support.

yeah getting riddle of a scum in power sometimes cannot be the best option but is not exactly the worst, a good exemple is saddan husen, dispose, indeed his country still a "turmoil and very complicated things" but for what i hear from peoples living on that place they prefer what they are having now than what they where having with "saddan", because they are no more afraid to speak what they thing or afraid of fails and get killed, like a soccer team which was sentenced to death because they lost to USA team and had to get protection in usa to not get killed in they own country, ask then if they wanted a saddan back.

what is matter is "how good" the scum is good at manipulate peoples.
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Old 2017-10-01, 15:39   Link #804
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To clarify the post from a few days ago:

My main gripe ended up being Favaro saying that Chariose wasn't responsible for Mugaro's death and the attempt on Nina's life as if that was all that mattered. Not to mention that Favaro was wrong on both counts. Chariose had the onyx knights hunting for Muguro for most of the early episodes, and sure, he offered Jean (still in prison) that he'd let him live if she cooperated. Trust him? As for Nina, he didn't actually give the order, but didn't deny what the onyx knight was obviously asking for, which counts as an acknowledgement in that case.

Kaiser also tried to stop Jean by telling her only Alessand (and by proxy himself) were responsible for Muguro's death (wrong for the same reason as Favaro), as if that was the only reason they were going to fight (maybe it was the only reason for Jean, but really?).

The audience was essentially being told by the two biggest characters from the previous season that Chariose should be forgiven, just because. I had a few problems before this, but that episode was really irritating that the writer was ramming the idea that Chariose was working for the greater good down our throat.

The seal that was interacting with the rift and threatening to blow up half the continent was obviously the ancient tech (green light?), meaning the humans did it sometime in the last ten years. Bahamut was going to return eventually, but we don't know when. The gods and demons were able to keep Bahamut sealed for a lot longer than 10 years though, which is the length of time (at most) that this ancient tech seal was working. What did Chariose do? He largely wiped out the demons and gods to get the ancient tech to complete the weapon anyway and used this seal that threatened the continent.

The kicker? Bahamut's coming back sometime in the future despite everything. In dealing with Bahamut, they're always going to be kicking the can down the road, but this was completely moronic.

Spoiler for Gundam IBO and Re:Creators:

Last edited by LKK; 2017-10-01 at 16:45. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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Old 2017-10-01, 17:53   Link #805
James Rye
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Well, I liked the past two episodes. The show had its flaws, some bigger than others, but all in all it was an enjoyable show to watch while having some frustrating moments. I liked how Alessand died, by the hand of a scared child and desperately not wanting to die. Heck, he even made DIAS of all people so mad that he would have killed him if the child hadn't gotten him first. Guy was way over his head, should have run away and left the country if he wanted to live.

Kaiser's death was sad but it fit his character. After all through-out the entire show he was loyal to the King, just not to the way his King was handling things. It made sense to me that a knight like Kaiser would sacrifice his life to save the one of his King, even if only by an hour or by a minute. Rita's voice when Kaiser was fatally wounded and died was great, made my throat hurt, damn. So glad to see that there was some silver lining on the horizon with some sort of Zombie Kaiser though it is unclear to me if Kaiser will really return to that dead body like Rita did or if some sort of Rocky personality will start to be created in it.

This show is really all about sacrifice. Favaro sacrificed his love and promise to Amira, Kaiser his arm, Amira her life. This time Favaro lost his best friend, Kaiser his life and Chris his sight and Nina her voice. Guess either Chris or Nina will die next season.

Loved to see Bahamut without head! But god damn it, that thing STILL isn't dead? Oh come on!

What I would have liked to see would have been a scene where we see Chris ready to let his life down, not caring anymore because he achieved what he wanted to do. But then we see or hear the reasons why Lucifer, Azazel, Jeanne and what'shernamewiththegreenhairgoddess let him live. I can see why Jeanne did so, same with Lucifer given he let so many demons live in the capitol but Azazel and greenhairgoddess? No clue, I thought they'd kill him for sure.

Now as for the genocide thingie: There was never a genocide. Chris didn't needed dead demons, he needed slaves. And it didn't really matter to him what race they were as we have seen on the prison island where all the slaves where the prisoners working on that machine. Oh, there were mass murders for sure, but from what I saw that mostly happened by other slavers and owners who had good reasons to kill as many demons as they wanted to. Let's not forget that the demons are not innocent people, they killed, massmurdered and enslaved humans for thousands of years; plenty time for some humans to want to see all demons dead.
Chris let demons fight in arenas for entertainment for the masses (bread and games like in Rom), killed Demon Rebels to keep the peace and power, and did not give a fuck about how demon slaves live and survive in the city but he had no clear plan to genocide all demonkin. There were no gas-chambers, no army preparing mass graves to behead thousands or millions of demons in it, no poisoned food, no selection in useful or useless demons with the useless demons getting killed in a planned manner, etc. He just didn't give a damn about them, they were a necessary workforce for his plan and if he had not got them then he probably would have enslaved half of humanity to get the same result in the timeline he had set/was given.

Honestly, the wars, the slavery and the many deaths that followed under his rule would have been good enough as any reason to take his head, but what would have been the end of it? Just more Instability in the human realm, maybe even more hate as humans would think demons and gods took their king's life after he killed Bahamut because they didn't wanted to admit a human achieved what they couldn't. The demon realm is in tatters which is why so many of them chose to live in the human city despite the past, still a better life than what the demon lands have to offer. The gods are low in number, terrible low and might never recover from that loss. The humans are like rabbits, they will breed crazy so no real worries on that front I guess.

Given that Bahamut is still not dead, first season sealed, second season killed, what will they do with him in the third season? Brainwash him into a good dragon? Well, it will be interesting to see what they come up with. And what else they think can be sacrificed by the characters to stop Bahamut.
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Old 2017-10-01, 19:07   Link #806
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by James Rye View Post
Now as for the genocide thingie: There was never a genocide. Chris didn't needed dead demons, he needed slaves. And it didn't really matter to him what race they were as we have seen on the prison island where all the slaves where the prisoners working on that machine. Oh, there were mass murders for sure, but from what I saw that mostly happened by other slavers and owners who had good reasons to kill as many demons as they wanted to. Let's not forget that the demons are not innocent people, they killed, massmurdered and enslaved humans for thousands of years; plenty time for some humans to want to see all demons dead.
Chris let demons fight in arenas for entertainment for the masses (bread and games like in Rom), killed Demon Rebels to keep the peace and power, and did not give a fuck about how demon slaves live and survive in the city but he had no clear plan to genocide all demonkin. There were no gas-chambers, no army preparing mass graves to behead thousands or millions of demons in it, no poisoned food, no selection in useful or useless demons with the useless demons getting killed in a planned manner, etc. He just didn't give a damn about them, they were a necessary workforce for his plan and if he had not got them then he probably would have enslaved half of humanity to get the same result in the timeline he had set/was given.

Honestly, the wars, the slavery and the many deaths that followed under his rule would have been good enough as any reason to take his head, but what would have been the end of it? Just more Instability in the human realm, maybe even more hate as humans would think demons and gods took their king's life after he killed Bahamut because they didn't wanted to admit a human achieved what they couldn't. The demon realm is in tatters which is why so many of them chose to live in the human city despite the past, still a better life than what the demon lands have to offer. The gods are low in number, terrible low and might never recover from that loss. The humans are like rabbits, they will breed crazy so no real worries on that front I guess.
you are forgeting some points like he not only killed and enslaved "demons" but also humans, anyone which could be a threat to him or he killed as he did with his family to make sure being the only one to be the king like a "fat NK leader", also any peoples which didn't liked his actions or where throw into the jails to work on the machine or killed this means which he also did it to humans, he even trapped a heroine in this case jeanne and even favaro, the only reason he was being see as a "hero" is because no one told to the "mass the truth" which was chriss himself which released bahamute and screwed which his prision, which in order to achiev the throne he murdered all others possible heins to the throne, which he is throwing in jail innocent peoples specially the ones which "love the gods" which now become forbiden in his ruleship venerate the gods, i really would love to see if peoples would call him a "hero" if they find out everything he did.

This without bringing the "gods" which he also killed indiscriminated in order to steal the treasures for his "bahamute killing machine" which also in the end looks like don't really worked.

then the problem is not just demons, but he was asshole the whole season not just for the demons or gods but even humans and evem allowed peoples being jailed for nothing(wow they need to work) like favaro which was jailed for nothing really big this showing how "good" being the things around the king and the main town kingdom.

he was a genocide not only to demons but basically all the 3 races suffered in his hands, all for his selfish revenge over bahamute.
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Old 2017-10-01, 22:27   Link #807
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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But the characterization, reasoning and emotional turmoil are a huge part of a character. That's what gets you to like or empathisize with them. Even if some of his tactics made you scratch your head at times. And he really wasn't supposed to be perfect anyway. You were supposed to see him fall on his face and have things come around to bite him on the ass.
TL;DR…
 
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Originally Posted by zalem View Post
Charioce isn't really likeable as a character AND his tactics are stupid. And on top of that he doesn't pay that heavy a price for that stupidity. At least not in my book. I would have preferred some repercussions. Maybe people calling him out on his dumbass plan to bring Bahamut to town. Maybe forcing him to step down as King. Or maybe him realizing he DIDN'T kill Bahamut and all the horrible things he did were basically for nothing. Have that really hit home. Something more. Doesn't necessarily have to be death. The picture the epilogue painted of him being this total hero and seeing the demons just happily working along side humans again was just a bit off for me. I guess maybe next season might fix some of this? Who knows.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Charioce. If you trace my comments back to my first post in this thread (replying Marcus H.), I'm just baffled by many people's comments who seem to claim that "mass murderer main villain winning/got away -> instant bad show". That sentiment may apply to this show to a degree, but it's not a universal standard that can be applied to every show that has villains in it. Somebody already mentioned how the similar case in a certain popular Gundam show & another show about IPs come to life (no spoiling further) are actually one of the smarter choices in the writing that made sense for the story.
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Old 2017-10-02, 02:54   Link #808
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The thing with Gundam is that you can consider Gundam shows to be bound to certain rules and directions in story that you'd expect this thing or that thing to happen based on Tomino's storytelling approach. (Similarly, you cannot find a totally happy ending in Gen Urobuchi's works.)

That's Gundam, and Shingeki no Bahamut could have gone through every possible scenario except what just happened.

The reactions of some people meant that there was something that the writers wanted to communicate to the watchers and that particular message didn't make it through because of a number of reasons. Re:Creators seemed to have the same reception AND the same differences in reaction in the finale. (I'd imagine that a Western audience wouldn't accept Altair being isolated based on how Hollywood movies make it sure that the villain doesn't get away with anything in the end.) I cannot blame the viewers or the producers. It's a disconnect that both sides have to live with.
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Old 2017-10-02, 03:59   Link #809
James Rye
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you are forgeting some points like he not only killed and enslaved "demons" but also humans, anyone which could be a threat to him or he killed as he did with his family to make sure being the only one to be the king like a "fat NK leader", also any peoples which didn't liked his actions or where throw into the jails to work on the machine or killed this means which he also did it to humans, he even trapped a heroine in this case jeanne and even favaro, the only reason he was being see as a "hero" is because no one told to the "mass the truth" which was chriss himself which released bahamute and screwed which his prision, which in order to achiev the throne he murdered all others possible heins to the throne, which he is throwing in jail innocent peoples specially the ones which "love the gods" which now become forbiden in his ruleship venerate the gods, i really would love to see if peoples would call him a "hero" if they find out everything he did.

This without bringing the "gods" which he also killed indiscriminated in order to steal the treasures for his "bahamute killing machine" which also in the end looks like don't really worked.

then the problem is not just demons, but he was asshole the whole season not just for the demons or gods but even humans and evem allowed peoples being jailed for nothing(wow they need to work) like favaro which was jailed for nothing really big this showing how "good" being the things around the king and the main town kingdom.

he was a genocide not only to demons but basically all the 3 races suffered in his hands, all for his selfish revenge over bahamute.
Dude, did you even READ my comment properly? Like your first point is freaking answered in the third sentence, man:
"And it didn't really matter to him what race they were as we have seen on the prison island where all the slaves where the prisoners working on that machine."
Now I don't know if you even have SEEN the show, but let me spoiler you that on the prison island all the slaves were HUMANS, both male and female. Oh my Gosh! Did I just had said that Chris was enslaving all three races in my comment and you didn't notice? Learn reading before writing!

There was never a genocide else you'd had to call dropping the nukes on japan genocide as well. Mass killing in war is not genocide, it's mass killing with both sides trying to kill each other as quickly and often as possible. Planned and industrial murder with the goal of ENDING a race is genocide, not using their workforce with all brutal efficiency no matter the cost of their health or life. Both, genocide and slavery, are evil but there is still a difference between genocide and slavery else we would have to rewrite history for a lot of cultures.

And yeah, Chris IS an asshole who jail people who are against him, but another spoiler for you in case you haven't watched the show yet and just read reviews somewhere: He was shown as a tyrant from the start! And you know what defines a tyrant? That he does not allow other opinions to exist/stand against him! Holy shit, it's like the writers followed through what they made Chris to be in the beginning of the series! Who would have expected that?
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Old 2017-10-02, 04:53   Link #810
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Well, for me it’s not that Charioce basically wins in the end but the way the story frames it that is the problem. My favorite style of literature is grim dark fantasy (books by Martin, Abercrombie, Bakker, Lawrence and so on). In these works there are practically no real heroes, everyone is gray, our protagonist do terrible things, good people suffer monstrous fates and villains far worse than Charioce actually triumph in the end. But endings of these works are meant to be thought provoking, meant to make the reader uncomfortable, to rattle our sense of morality, to make us see how life is hard and often unfear. The story doesn’t try to sugarcoat the actions of its characters.
Virgin soul is bending over backwards and jumping through hoops to excuse Charioces actions and it has harmed the story and most of its characters. One blatant example is what is done with Els death. Charioce gave the order for El to be killed on sight. He never recants the order; he confirms it several times, even torments Jeanne with it. The only reason Alessand does it is because he knows it will please the king and the onyx knights. Charioce is as guilty as Alessand, yet Alessand is made a scapegoat and Charioce completely washed of any wrong doings. Even worse, Favaro is made to go out of character and basically turned into mouthpiece for Charioce propaganda. And very serious issues like slavery, oppression, genocide, circle of hatred, racism, and tyranny are just hand waved away at the end. The scene where demons are still doing backbreaking work for humans for a pittance (they are still wearing rags) is downright insulting.
Instead they should have shown humans helping the demons and gods rebuild their respective homes. There is no way that the gods and demons would just let all this slide without any reparations. At the very least Charioce would be forced to abdicate. Even humans would not regard Charioce as a hero once Jeanne made it known he was the one to release Bahamut in the first place. It would also make sense for there to be a heir prepared to replace Charioce, he did plan to die. So have some young cousin sit on the throne with Jeanne as mentor/regent. She is respected by both gods and humans and can facilitate lasting peace. She is now also connected with Azazel. It was Els wish to bring peace to the world, something that Jeanne can get Azazel to get behind. And voila, the characters of Jeanne, Azazel and El are not pointless in the end, there is a relatively logical way to bring about proper peace in the future and Nina and Charioce can have their bittersweet ending living together in Ninas village or something.
Couple this ending with shallow romance, plot holes, misused characters, anticlimactic defeat of Bahamut and all the other issues people have brought up on the forum and this has becomes a bad show despite the very promising start, just like Kado which I also had the misfortune of watching this year
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Old 2017-10-02, 04:57   Link #811
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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The thing with Gundam is that you can consider Gundam shows to be bound to certain rules and directions in story that you'd expect this thing or that thing to happen based on Tomino's storytelling approach. (Similarly, you cannot find a totally happy ending in Gen Urobuchi's works.)

That's Gundam, and Shingeki no Bahamut could have gone through every possible scenario except what just happened.
Actually, it’s the contrary. Gundam anime (both UC & AU) has never been bound to any anime convention/cliché/tropes (especially when it comes to ending) partly thanks to Tomino who have set the standard. Yes, the franchise has one absolute rule for its anime which is: you have to feature mecha in the story in some capacity for the company to sell the toy (duh). In case of the TV series, you at least have to prominently feature one Gundam in it along with other mechas. That’s it.

Other than that strict condition, writers and directors are practically free to come up with any kind of compelling story, conflicts, and characters that they like to develop. That’s why Gundam anime endings vary. On one extreme side, you can get an absolute happy ending while on the other extreme side you can have a total tragedy with other endings placed in between as generally bittersweet variations. Rumor has it that Gen Urobuchi has been interested in making his own Gundam & Kamen Rider series due to the aforementioned freedom and guaranteed exposure the two franchises offer. Well, he’s done his Kamen Rider show (Gaim), now I’ll be waiting for his Gundam someday when the stars are aligned .

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The reactions of some people meant that there was something that the writers wanted to communicate to the watchers and that particular message didn't make it through because of a number of reasons. Re:Creators seemed to have the same reception AND the same differences in reaction in the finale. (I'd imagine that a Western audience wouldn't accept Altair being isolated based on how Hollywood movies make it sure that the villain doesn't get away with anything in the end.) I cannot blame the viewers or the producers. It's a disconnect that both sides have to live with.
That’s a fair assessment. Sadly, some people just can’t understand the kind of endings where the bad guy wins. Even Hollywood mostly restricted those kinds of stories for movies based on real events (remember Tom Cruise’s Valkyrie, among others?) and horrors, while Japan has more balls in using such pattern for totally fictional stories and even for their kids/teenage entertainment. Hollywood bad guys in total fictional stories rarely win coz they know the general American audience will mostly not accept such thing from their entertainment unless it’s horror or based on true stories. Heck, they even sweeten a lot of true stories to fit more into the Hollywood feel-good sensibilities. That’s why I applaud films like No Country for Old Men (NCFOM) and Brad Pitt’s Se7en who dare to go against the widely accepted Hollywood tradition. In NCFOM’s case, it’s easier coz it adapts a good and highly-regarded novel that already has the grim ending written in it and some audience already expected it. All they had to do is follow the book.

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this has becomes a bad show despite the very promising start, just like Kado which I also had the misfortune of watching this year
Your post makes me interested in finishing Kado which I have put off before .
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Old 2017-10-02, 11:45   Link #812
Mistyclear
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I don't really care that charioce won a happy ending. I'm just disappointed Nina got one when she didn't learn or change at all, I just hated that all she thought about at the end of the series was Chris and not about anything else. Also bitter about that the ones who got the bad ending were Jeanne and Favaro, seriously those two suffered the most and yet they still got the short end of the stick.

Also people keep mentioning Kado....did that series really end that badly? I stopped watching after a few episodes due to being busy...
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Old 2017-10-02, 15:47   Link #813
Albel VII
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It doesn't help your case that numerous comments in past pages are more interested in addressing Charioce's atrocities and how he "got away with it" rather than complaining how boring he is .
It also doesn't hurt it. He shouldn't have been boring since him being interesting is something that could have prevented those type of comments. That was my point.

Let me explain in a different fashion what I mean by this. Complainers' problem in a nutshell: "A guy with a bunch of awful deeds got treated too well by the creators, sometimes even at the expense of the older characters. It's unfair." That's a pretty normal reaction in a case like this if you ask me. I'd say that this is the default response from most viewers normally. (Even if it'd make sense considering the themes of a given story.)

However you brought up the fact that there are characters in other stories who were just as nasty, got favored by the creators and yet people didn't complain about those. I think these are special cases. (It's not necessarily rare though.) This thing happens when people come to love a character like these so much that they are willing to excuse/ignore/forgive said character's atrocities no matter how awful those might be. This requires lots of charisma.

Charoce being boring is a major problem with the character since the creators really wanted people to like him if you ask me, since they tried to show a couple of times that he isn't a bad guy deep down. It seems they pretty much wanted him to steal the show. However it seems they failed because not many has come to like him. (At least that's what I noticed in various forums). The execution was way too clumsy. He just didn't have enough charisma to pull this off.

Also do note that while not many seem think that Charioce was an interesting character, those who do also happen to generally like the ending and the series as a whole.

I personally don't think this is what ruined the show by the way, I think the story was crumbling since the parade arc.

Last edited by Albel VII; 2017-10-02 at 16:01. Reason: Adding a line, fixing typos, adding missing words
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Old 2017-10-02, 20:17   Link #814
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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It also doesn't hurt it. He shouldn't have been boring since him being interesting is something that could have prevented those type of comments. That was my point.

Let me explain in a different fashion what I mean by this. Complainers' problem in a nutshell: "A guy with a bunch of awful deeds got treated too well by the creators, sometimes even at the expense of the older characters. It's unfair." That's a pretty normal reaction in a case like this if you ask me. I'd say that this is the default response from most viewers normally. (Even if it'd make sense considering the themes of a given story.)

However you brought up the fact that there are characters in other stories who were just as nasty, got favored by the creators and yet people didn't complain about those. I think these are special cases. (It's not necessarily rare though.) This thing happens when people come to love a character like these so much that they are willing to excuse/ignore/forgive said character's atrocities no matter how awful those might be. This requires lots of charisma.

Charoce being boring is a major problem with the character since the creators really wanted people to like him if you ask me, since they tried to show a couple of times that he isn't a bad guy deep down. It seems they pretty much wanted him to steal the show. However it seems they failed because not many has come to like him. (At least that's what I noticed in various forums). The execution was way too clumsy. He just didn't have enough charisma to pull this off.

Also do note that while not many seem think that Charioce was an interesting character, those who do also happen to generally like the ending and the series as a whole.

I personally don't think this is what ruined the show by the way, I think the story was crumbling since the parade arc.
And yet you have comments from users like Blueknight78 and those with the same general opinion as him in complaining about the lack of "justice" for Charioce. Posters like them will demand said "justice" and "punishment" no matter how amusing Charioce character is. My comments have been addressing people like them, not those that will forgive/excuse/ignore villains' atrocities and being okay with them getting the happy ending just because they are entertaining.

And just like I said to Zalem above, I'm not really defending Charioce or VS here. I'm just arguing against the "bad guy won/got away with it -> instant bad show"-sentiment.
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Old 2017-10-02, 21:27   Link #815
Albel VII
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And just like I said to Zalem above, I'm not really defending Charioce or VS here. I'm just arguing against the "bad guy won/got away with it -> instant bad show"-sentiment.
At least we fully agree on something I guess. As for the rest, I certainly can't prove that they would forgive him more easily if he was fun, so let's agree that we disagree and move on
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Old 2017-10-02, 22:33   Link #816
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S1 was great, and the first half of this was alright. I really didn't like the plot or Nina's character development in the 2nd half. Charioce was sort of a conundrum early on but in the end I didn't care for his justification...more so because he just didn't have any sort of passion for what he was doing.
Kaiser also felt lackluster. Favaro was fine but it did feel like he came back into the story just because they felt like putting him back in.

I liked Mugaro/El and Jeanne most I'd say.

I'd give this season as a whole maybe a 6/10.
If they do more, I hope it's different. Looking at the credits it looks like S1 was written by someone with some interesting works behind them.

S2 seems like someone brand new, literally the only credit is this anime as far as I could find.
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Old 2017-10-03, 08:24   Link #817
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I figured they dealt with the bahamut issue last season, then this happened and then it will probably happen again in S3. Surely the bahamut lore has more characters they could use as last boss? I'd watch the teased third season despite feeling pretty underwhelmed with this one. Wonder why Rita couldn't turn Mugaro into a zombie too.
After the awful re:creators ending I guess I'm less surprised to see an antagonist get away with their wrongdoing and in fact be glorified by the narrative. I guess at least Charioce had the excuse of a "greater good" but it still didn't make his earlier actions anymore comprehensible. Favaro got demoted to a cheerleader for the guy who locked him up for apparently no reason but to be an asshole.
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Old 2017-10-03, 11:35   Link #818
willyvereb
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The show is called Rage of Bahamut and from what I heard the titular beast is like a perpetrual villain. It can almost never be put down and the game's plot and lore always come back to it.
So I suppose they're true to the source?

I also heard you need to vanquish the Bahamut's essence (akin to the soul but since dragons don't have souls in SnK it's different) in order to end the creature for good. Albeit given that the Bahamut's existence is some sorts of weird balancing factor it might only result in the eventual birth of another, greater monstrosity.

But yeah, around till EP20 or so I still had hopes they introduce a different kind of monster. Some kind of eldritch abomination perhaps freed because the Bahamut got put down or something. As others I felt that Charioce actually just gunning for Bahamut was a bit bland even if that requires less of an asspull.
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Old 2017-10-03, 12:33   Link #819
scififan
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But yeah, around till EP20 or so I still had hopes they introduce a different kind of monster. Some kind of eldritch abomination perhaps freed because the Bahamut got put down or something. As others I felt that Charioce actually just gunning for Bahamut was a bit bland even if that requires less of an asspull.
From all discussion, let's summarize..

1. Charioce is as NK leader, because he sends Favaro, Kaiser, Nina, Jeanne to the labor camp. Moreover, he has the death match arena
2. The third Bahamut anime would be the on hold Yuri project(it was the second Bahamut anime).
3. Most anime main characters are ranked 30 and below in the game.
4. The story kills Kaiser so he can be paired with Rita, but he seems to lose his mind.

Last edited by scififan; 2017-10-03 at 13:08.
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Old 2017-10-03, 19:16   Link #820
zalem
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Edit:
Your post makes me interested in finishing Kado which I have put off before .
At which point did you stop? There is a certain point where the show jumps the shark and started to go downhill. Now if when that certain event happened you actually like it, then maybe you'll like the ending. Who knows? But if you don't like it (I loathed it) then the show just sort of tanks from that point on. Once that thing happened I pretty much predicted the rest of it for the most part. But that event is pretty much what had people like WTF! And either people liked it or hated it. And you will know what I am talking about if you've seen it because well...you'll just know. God. For me it was a very promising and interesting show up until that point.
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