(L+CR) Black Clover (TV series)

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Yes, he's like Deku, or Naruto, or a number of other characters who have either no powers or nothing worth calling real power, until the end of one or two episodes. Did you not see the end of the episode, where a grimoire suddenly materialized before him, with narration indicating that the clover on the front indicates something demonic? As I said before, I'm only speaking about what was shown in the first ep, and that bit suggests that there's something lying hidden within him, an inherent part of him, that makes him incredible once it gets out. Even if instead the grimoire didn't come to him on account of him inherently having something, that would just mean that he's more Deku than Naruto: given power in recognition of his futile efforts rather than having power naturally inside him waiting for him to be able to handle it. And even if this power turns out to be something unusual that doesn't qualify as "power" by the standards of the world, that doesn't mean it's not legitimately a "power". Kamijo Touma is incredibly powerful, even though his power is not something that any measurement really defines as "power".

And I'll say once more. Since I only have the first episode to go on, haven't read the manga and have only heard a small amount about what Asta's POWER might be, I am only expressing the impression given by that material, as well as my opinion that's developed over years of various shows that the people who talk of one genre's heroes being deeper, more full of personality, or less of a stand-in for the audience than any other genre simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about. As I said before, I will watch at least a few more episodes. I've seen anime where the first episode was too pathetic for words but by ep 3 I liked them; I've also seen anime where the first ep made me feel like I'd found a real gem but after another couple eps I started to feel that was all I was going to get. Things could change for the better, but for the moment the appearance is just a lump of overused Shounen action clichés. Please don't call me Jon Snow just because I haven't seen past the current point, especially if we're talking in a forum that forbids talking about what will happen past this point.

I can assure you that your interpretation is correct.
Asta ultimately is a Deku, but more assertive when it comes to the external power that's handed to him by a third party.
It even moves into more cliches as more detail about the gremoire is revealed.

[Pen3]

I continue to read the manga for the side characters, especially Charmy. They are more interesting than the MC because of his cliche attitude and what BTW said.

[orion]

Originally Posted by dniv

Lol I'm totally on the same page as you about everything you said in your message. This is no normal shounen and that was no normal yelling.

He prob has an inferiority complex from years of being told that he would amount to nothing if he didn't have a grimoire or magic in him. seeing Yuno being praised for being OP.

[Cloudedmind]

I'm interested in seeing where this is going, but someone please tell me that Asta gets less annoying or at least does less yelling.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by orion

He prob has an inferiority complex from years of being told that he would amount to nothing if he didn't have a grimoire or magic in him. seeing Yuno being praised for being OP.

Yeah, tell me about it.

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

I'm interested in seeing where this is going, but someone please tell me that Asta gets less annoying or at least does less yelling.

He gets a lot of opportunities to...exclaim his surprise. How he does it is up to the VA - think Luffy going "awesoooomeee" at every little thing he sees.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

I'm interested in seeing where this is going, but someone please tell me that Asta gets less annoying or at least does less yelling.

im sure he will have more scenes where he talks normally,

the scene with the chain-villian was quite good imo, the time where he didnt scream...so i will bet the screaming wont vanish, but it wont be for every sentence

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

Asta's constant yelling is annoying. I get that he's supposed to be the hot blooded type, but 90% of his dialogue here was yelling.

Seems we all agree that Asta is way too annoying. He's more hot-blooded than most hot-blooded characters I've seen

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

im sure he will have more scenes where he talks normally,

the scene with the chain-villian was quite good imo, the time where he didnt scream...so i will bet the screaming wont vanish, but it wont be for every sentence

Sure hope so, because all that screaming can't be good for the VA's throat...


I also found the whole clover thing interesting, does that mean that everyone with a grimoire has a (stat) boost in faith, hope and love?

[Anh_Minh]

The MC's an idiot with a big mouth and big dreams. I'm ok with that, it's not the first such I've seen. I find the formula at least tolerable.

But does the little shithead have to yell so much all the time about everything? Please tell me in ep2 he gets hit with a mute curse and the rest of the series is about him trying to recover his voice.

[BPD Renegade]

@BWTraveller: Before I start responding to your posts, I'd like to point out that shonen hero vs harem protagonist is in itself a flawed comparison. It's like trying to compare fruits to apples. Shonen is a label applied to what demographic a series is intended for. Harem is a genre, and in fact, a lot of harem series are actually shonen series as well. I.e., your harem protagonist is actually the shonen hero of his series as well. But let's go ahead and pretend that "shonen" is a genre.

Yes, shonen protagonists are generic loud-mouths who all had their "immense godlike" powers handed to them by some ad hoc method. Because we really saw Gon shouting about friendship for almost 150 episodes, and Kenshin and non-gag Gintoki both have magical hidden powers. Protagonists like Asakura Yoh, Allen Walker, or Nura Rikuo are incredibly flamboyant. Let's not forget about our shonen sports heros like Sena. Definite loudmouth with special powers who never had to truly work for it at all. That's not even getting into really mindf*ck series like Pandora Hearts. Oh man, that series protagonist is the epitome of stereotypical shonen hero.

Sarcasm aside, I'm not denying that a lot of shonen series tend to have cookie cutter characters and scenarios. It's because of the immense popularity of series like Naruto that a lot of authors unfortunately started to use "weak protagonist with hidden power and strong, genius rival" as a framework, leading to too many series that look and feel the same. But it's how these cookie cutter products develop that determine the worth of a series. We have Black Clover, which apparently is supposed to get better, and then we have unbearable abominations like the failed Demon's Plan. Flaws are no reason to disparage an entire selection of work for the sole purpose of defending another genre that no one even mentioned in the thread.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Harem series protagonists have more variation and personality than people want to believe, and much more to the point, Shounen heroes tend to have far less than fans claim.

I agree with this. A lot of people tend to be overly harsh or too forgiving towards certain types of series that they like or don't like. But on a scale of 0-10 with 10 being most unique, it feels like you're trying to imply that harem protagonists score one point higher than shonen heroes, when really, what the quoted statement could mean is that shonen heros have a variation of 6 instead of the 8 people claim, and harem protagonists are a 3 instead of a 1. Each have their outliers, but speaking with averages and in my opinion, "shonen" in the sense of series like One Piece and Naruto tend to have richer development than harem series.

I think something you're forgetting to take into account as you disparage an entire "genre" is the rest of what makes up these series: world, plot, and characters. Most successful shonen build incredibly rich worlds and have intricate plots and good character development. I've yet to see a harem series (and I mean an actual harem series where the plot is actually about a guy surrounded by girls and women trying to get into his pants, not those people claim are harem just because the protagonist is surrounded by members of the opposite sex) with anything other than cookie cutter "checklist" side characters (the tsundere, the kuudere, etc.) or generic settings and plots.

That said, there's nothing wrong with enjoying harem series over shonen series, and I don't see anyone here judging anyone over doing so. In fact, I don't even see why you chose to defensively bring up harem of all things when, again, no one even mentioned it.

--
As for Black Clover itself, I'm reserving judgment, but it looks like something that will be hard for me to get into. What I've heard and seen of the protagonist so far irritate me. I'm being overly harsh right now, but he doesn't seem likable at all, and I'm getting second-hand stupidity just looking at his gaping mouth and constipated expression. Can someone give an honest opinion? Is this really supposed to be a good series, or is it just one of those series that are decent but overly touted? I find it hard to get into a series, even if it has an interesting plot, if the protagonist remains a hot-blooded idiot who does nothing but shout about friendship *coughSeraphoftheEndcough* so I'd rather know if it changes or remains like this ahead of time.

[Grand-Chariot-Wave]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Can someone give an honest opinion? Is this really supposed to be a good series, or is it just one of those series that are decent but overly touted? I find it hard to get into a series, even if it has an interesting plot, if the protagonist remains a hot-blooded idiot who does nothing but shout about friendship *coughSeraphoftheEndcough* so I'd rather know if it changes or remains like this ahead of time.

There's no "talk no jutsu" and or "power of friendship" in this manga/anime. Actual Teamwork is more of a thing here.

[Kafriel]

it looks like something that will be hard for me to get into. What I've heard and seen of the protagonist so far irritate me. I'm being overly harsh right now, but he doesn't seem likable at all, and I'm getting second-hand stupidity just looking at his gaping mouth and constipated expression. Can someone give an honest opinion? Is this really supposed to be a good series, or is it just one of those series that are decent but overly touted? I find it hard to get into a series, even if it has an interesting plot, if the protagonist remains a hot-blooded idiot who does nothing but shout about friendship *coughSeraphoftheEndcough* so I'd rather know if it changes or remains like this ahead of time.

Asta remains loud and happy-go-lucky, but this series has a hidden good point: the cliches it brings with it are very toned down, leaving a lot of room for actual plot. Yes, this one has actual plot, as well as interesting characters, main cast included.

However, I'm afraid you're in for at least one more episode of incessant yelling. Bear with it, skip it, or drop it, the choice is yours.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

@BWTraveller: Before I start responding to your posts, I'd like to point out that shonen hero vs harem protagonist is in itself a flawed comparison. It's like trying to compare fruits to apples. Shonen is a label applied to what demographic a series is intended for. Harem is a genre, and in fact, a lot of harem series are actually shonen series as well. I.e., your harem protagonist is actually the shonen hero of his series as well. But let's go ahead and pretend that "shonen" is a genre.

Yes, shonen protagonists are generic loud-mouths who all had their "immense godlike" powers handed to them by some ad hoc method. Because we really saw Gon shouting about friendship for almost 150 episodes, and Kenshin and non-gag Gintoki both have magical hidden powers. Protagonists like Asakura Yoh, Allen Walker, or Nura Rikuo are incredibly flamboyant. Let's not forget about our shonen sports heros like Sena. Definite loudmouth with special powers who never had to truly work for it at all. That's not even getting into really mindf*ck series like Pandora Hearts. Oh man, that series protagonist is the epitome of stereotypical shonen hero.

Sarcasm aside, I'm not denying that a lot of shonen series tend to have cookie cutter characters and scenarios. It's because of the immense popularity of series like Naruto that a lot of authors unfortunately started to use "weak protagonist with hidden power and strong, genius rival" as a framework, leading to too many series that look and feel the same. But it's how these cookie cutter products develop that determine the worth of a series. We have Black Clover, which apparently is supposed to get better, and then we have unbearable abominations like the failed Demon's Plan. Flaws are no reason to disparage an entire selection of work for the sole purpose of defending another genre that no one even mentioned in the thread.

I agree with this. A lot of people tend to be overly harsh or too forgiving towards certain types of series that they like or don't like. But on a scale of 0-10 with 10 being most unique, it feels like you're trying to imply that harem protagonists score one point higher than shonen heroes, when really, what the quoted statement could mean is that shonen heros have a variation of 6 instead of the 8 people claim, and harem protagonists are a 3 instead of a 1. Each have their outliers, but speaking with averages and in my opinion, "shonen" in the sense of series like One Piece and Naruto tend to have richer development than harem series.

I think something you're forgetting to take into account as you disparage an entire "genre" is the rest of what makes up these series: world, plot, and characters. Most successful shonen build incredibly rich worlds and have intricate plots and good character development. I've yet to see a harem series (and I mean an actual harem series where the plot is actually about a guy surrounded by girls and women trying to get into his pants, not those people claim are harem just because the protagonist is surrounded by members of the opposite sex) with anything other than cookie cutter "checklist" side characters (the tsundere, the kuudere, etc.) or generic settings and plots.

That said, there's nothing wrong with enjoying harem series over shonen series, and I don't see anyone here judging anyone over doing so. In fact, I don't even see why you chose to defensively bring up harem of all things when, again, no one even mentioned it.

--
As for Black Clover itself, I'm reserving judgment, but it looks like something that will be hard for me to get into. What I've heard and seen of the protagonist so far irritate me. I'm being overly harsh right now, but he doesn't seem likable at all, and I'm getting second-hand stupidity just looking at his gaping mouth and constipated expression. Can someone give an honest opinion? Is this really supposed to be a good series, or is it just one of those series that are decent but overly touted? I find it hard to get into a series, even if it has an interesting plot, if the protagonist remains a hot-blooded idiot who does nothing but shout about friendship *coughSeraphoftheEndcough* so I'd rather know if it changes or remains like this ahead of time.

Apparently you didn't read all my posts thoroughly. I mentioned that, while the heroes were often cookie-cutter clones with less personality than just loud flamboyance, they made up for it in plot and world and story. In fact I mentioned, I believe, that the way things work in Shounen series the plot is large-scale and fantastic, fitting for flamboyance and designed in such a way that lots of big stuff happens and the hero is a core part of that, often to the point of actually saving the world on at least one or two occasions. These hugely expansive worlds are what make those series great, and they're in my opinion what also makes even the generic heroes LOOK great, because it gives them a lot more to do and a lot more opportunities to loudly proclaim "I am here" (to take from one popular series), whereas the harem genre is more largely focused in many cases on small things. Yes, there's often a large plot but the big focus seems to be more on the small relationships and the matter of helping girls and friends with their individual problems. Basically, a narrower focus.

Also, when I say "Shounen protagonist" I'm not referring to the entire Shounen demographic. That's a demographic that frankly includes the majority of harem from what I've seen on sites that sort by genre and demographic. Instead, when I say "Shounen hero" I'm referring to "heroes" in action-heavy/hero-centric mainstream Shounen series like Naruto, Bleach, and a broad range of other similar series. And while there are a few that work hard and have no power that they don't develop bit by bit with blood, sweat and tears, the genre is still far more fond of the "awakening" or the bestowed power or hidden power or any number of other forms of power that are quite independent of the actual training the hero does.

I also tried to make it clear that I am not disparaging the heroic saga Shounen series. As I said, a lot of them are really great. I just got tired of certain people here and elsewhere who act like those types of heroes are all unique and full of character, variety and personality while harem heroes are, according to them, completely lacking in all of these things. I dwelled on the ways things were generic and unoriginal in Shounen hero series only to demonstrate that the negative traits people say about harem prota-kins can just as easily be attributed to the majority of their favored genre, just as the great things they claim are present in their beloved series can be easily attributed to a lot of harem series that they dismiss offhand. And no, I don't think it's "Shounen is 6 and harem is 3", rather I'd say both vary across the board with a lot of 1s, a few 10s, and most varying between 4 and 6. It's just that, as I said before, harem protagonists tend to be quiet in the areas where hero protagonists tend to be loud, and this results in the harem protagonists' personalities and characters being more subdued or, more tot he point, those of the hero series being more obvious. In anime this is more problematic for the harem hero because it's harder to show subdued stuff that's not so clearly apparent, and thus it's either harder to see or in a lot of cases simply cut for time, leaving it more to guesswork. In a lot of cases, a quiet person who easily defers to other people will be given a popular score of 3-4 while a more high-volume person who insists on getting his way would be 6-7. That doesn't mean either one actually has less or more personality, and in fact in a society like Japan where courtesy and deference are exceptionally encouraged those ratings may vary (along with believability). It's just that any amount of personality the quiet guy has is harder to pick up on and whatever personality the more vocal one has is harder to ignore.

And yes, once again I am holding to my 3-ep rule. If in three episodes I don't find myself sufficiently interested, I'll drop it until I hear something that renews my interest. But unless I see something I find absolutely repugnant in the second ep, I will still give it the full three.

[Stro]

More than the half of the episode was a filler, then extend to much the part that Asta save Juno when they were kids. Well Pierrot disappoint again.

[Stark700]

Asta is just as annoying as a kid as he is in the present timeline.

I will admit though, the second episode is better than the first as it gave more insight on both the main characters' past. I did feel like the flashback was a bit long (they could of done it half an episode). Hoping pacing will pick up soon.

Oh and the OP song is alright. Nothing groundbreaking but fits for this anime.

[LevelSeven]

really good episode tbh,

i liked the flashback, it established the two MCs, why yuno sees asta in such high regards and why both aim to be the magic emporer,

the last battle-sequence looked really good as well...compared to the manga, a big improvement imo...

[PreSage]

I guess I'm the few who finds ep 2 a bit boring? The flashback was good but I found it too long. I think they could have executed a flashback a little differently to make it more interesting and flow better with the episode. Putting in a slow, long flashback in the middle of a high energy battle didn't work for me. But I'll continue with this series as I'm interested to see how Asta and Yuno will develop.

[serenade_beta]

Spoiler for ep2:

They used practically the entire episode 2 on flashbacks.

Are
they
stupi-...
Oh yeah, they are.

Look, there hasn't been enough time for the audience to get into the characters and want to understand them. You ended episode 1 in a climatic scene leading to the battle.
You don't just spend the next episode on the flashbacks of the characters no one cares about in the middle of a battle scene.

Oh, and just when you thought the voice of the protagonist was bad. His younger version sounds like nails on the blackboard. The screeching lowered my defenses by two stages.

[DMurphy]

Well, episode two was definitely a truckload more tolerable than episode one.

I do know what you mean by it being a bit boring, though, PreSage. I liked it, especially because it recontextualises what we know about Asta and Yuno, but it should probably have been condensed a fair bit.

[orion]

irrc the manga did the same thing.

Anyways, I enjoyed the 2nd episode. Just wished the fight lasted longer.