Could Rock have beaten Neji?

[Coder8]

There is a difference in reading your oppenents movements and seeing something in a slower motion. Also kenshin a lot of times was just faster then his enemies. And when he faced a stronger enemy he quickly lost that advantage of knowing what they will do. Kenshin also operated on there emotions I.E Sojuri fight.
also its only true with the Chakra that they can predict that they will do a jutsu. Not what type and not which. Atleast that hasnt been reveal yet.

Spoiler:

He has a 3 dot sharingan,so? He admits himself that he cant use it completely. So a snide remark wont change that. Also 3rd hokage was tricked by a kawarimi. Via oro-sans mud escape thing. Also try to keep this Naruto based as this is what the forum is and thats what we are debating.

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Bond Insurance Forum

[raikage]

I think that you read, but didn't understand the point of

• Kagebunshin ≠Bunshin version 2.0

and that they are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT jutsus.

• Ino vs Sakura - Ino says that if she looks closely, she can tell which one is the real one. So, logically that would mean that if she fought Naruto....right....?

You can't say "Just because xxxxxx applies to Bunshin it applies to Kagebunshin as well." They share a word in the name, but that's it.

[Coder8]

Raikage...i think you dont UNDERSTAND either. I never said they are 2 exact Jutsus. I use Bushin as a reference. He saw through it Weeee look he saw through it. NOT that Kage Bushin is the same as a regular Bushin.

Also A bushin would probally react differently. In any anime you see with bushins you always see how the oppenent finds a way to see through it. Movement,abilities ect....
Ino could mean that she would notice that one bushin would step on the ground and no dust would come up. Thats all she could have meant.
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Suzuki gs400e history

[Hunter]

There is nothing about slow motion in the sharingan vision, the Sharingan doesn't make you faster, it allow you to react before the moves of your opponent because its user can predict the moves.
A slow motion would only allow a Uchiha a fact reaction after the moves.

Spoiler:

Itachi didn't know which Kakashi was the clone and which one was the original until Kakashi undone the one close to Kisame

[Coder8]

Hunter-san how do you PREDICT,please define this for me. What i say can still apply too it.
Also how do we know Itachi was thinking "O dear lord,thats a water clone,i didnt know!"
I'm just debating the possibility,not the absulote fact.
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Gay Arab

[Sethi]

Originally Posted by Coder8

There is a difference in reading your oppenents movements and seeing something in a slower motion. Also kenshin a lot of times was just faster then his enemies. And when he faced a stronger enemy he quickly lost that advantage of knowing what they will do. Kenshin also operated on there emotions I.E Sojuri fight.
also its only true with the Chakra that they can predict that they will do a jutsu. Not what type and not which. Atleast that hasnt been reveal yet.

Spoiler:

He has a 3 dot sharingan,so? He admits himself that he cant use it completely. So a snide remark wont change that. Also 3rd hokage was tricked by a kawarimi. Via oro-sans mud escape thing. Also try to keep this Naruto based as this is what the forum is and thats what we are debating.

I made that remark about Kenshin because you asked which other way is there to predict movements i gave an example.

Spoiler:

He admits that the eye doesn't suit him and that he can't use the Sharingan for a long time like a true Uchiha but for the rest we don't have any indication that is ability is lower than Sasuke, because even Itachi was surprised how well Kakashi could use the Sharingan without any Uchiha relationship.
You say 3rd Hokage was tricked by Kawarimi but what does that change? does the 3rd has a Sharingan or something? we are discussing Sharingan and not how good a ninja is because the 3rd Hokage was also caught by the Genjutsu of Darkness and Sasuke most probably wouldn't since he has the Sharingan.

Originally Posted by Coder8

Hunter-san how do you PREDICT,please define this for me. What i say can still apply too it.
Also how do we know Itachi was thinking "O dear lord,thats a water clone,i didnt know!"
I'm just debating the possibility,not the absulote fact.

Well if you could watch closely to the move one makes the amount of chakra he uses the strength he gives and the sharingan can do all that you can tell what he is going to do no? I think that's how the Sharingan copies Taijutsu, because it sees all the stages of the attacks.

Spoiler:

Itachi didn't tought that, he probably tought "Pff, a Water Clone why the hell can't that guy just die so we can end this fast", since the guy is just to Cool we can't assume much, but i think in the same page he looks a bit surprised

[Hunter]

Like I said in my ante-penultimate post,

the Sharingan can predict the moves because it analyze and understand them, once you have understood the way of moving of your opponent, you know how he will move.
There is nothing about slow motion in that and actually it's rather the opposite, the sharingan manages informations that it sees at very high speed

To predict is to know something in advance of its occurrence, to see in slow motion doesn't allow that at all.

[Coder8]

How else do you see each move? Sorry but yours is possible but to exclude slow motion or to see it slower isnt possible.we're working with opinions here,dont expect them to mesh to well. Also isnt it the MIND that analyze's and understands them? not your eye but the eye does send the information too you.
Also if you watch the person in slow motion enough and you could also see how he moved in each stage as.
Either way we dont know if its possible and it hasnt been revealed yet,and this is alittle off topic eh ;D o well.

(edit) also i think its more likely they see it in slow motion...instead of adding layers upon layers onto it. Even tho the sharingan isnt the byukagan,lets use it as a example as a eye bloodline.
How does neji use it? Simple. He uses it to broaden his field of vision and it allows him to see a chakra system and the tenkutsu. That all sounds possible...and it doesnt involve anything extra like "Analyzing this and precieiving this". Simply a visual enhancement.
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Body science

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Coder8

How else do you see each move? Sorry but yours is possible but to exclude slow motion or to see it slower isnt possible.we're working with opinions here,dont expect them to mesh to well.

We don't talk about guesses here, the manga states that Sasuke is able to predict the moves when it was never stated nor insinuated that the Sharingan slow down anything.
And like I said, to see in slow motion doesn't allow you at all to predict anything, you can't act in advance with that.

Also isnt it the MIND that analyze's and understands them? not your eye but the eye does send the information too you.

Like a normal eye doesn't see anything, it just send the information to the brain, what's your point?

[raikage]

Coder8, you seem to really be stuck on the thoughts that the Sharingan can see through Kagebunshins. You defend the rooftop fight with "Well, he just beat up all the clones b/c he felt like it" which, if true, would make Sasuke an incredibly DUMB ninja - doing far more and wasting more energy than he needs to against an opponent who will NEVER run out of chakra and can create more clones in the blink of an eye.

About the Sharingan predicting movements - I think that has to do with the eye-brain connection, and in fact the Sharingan would actually alter the brain when activated.
The eye would allow better access to specific memories - in this case, jutsus or hand-to-hand combat.

Example: Kakashi vs Zabuza

Zabuza begins the seal sequence for Water Dragon
Kakashi mimics the first 3-5 seals
• The Sharingan begins to work and acceses memories of jutsus which have that particular seal sequence
• As Kakashi mimics the seals, the Sharingan narrows the list of possible jutsus from 1000 →100→20→10→5→1
• At this point, Kakashi knows that the jutsu will be Water Dragon, and the Sharingan recalls the rest of the seals; so Kakashi can perform the jutsu faster than Zabuza can.

One conclusion from this theory is that the Sharingan is useless against a new jutsu or against a hand-to-hand style it has never encountered before (my you-can't-copy-what-you-haven't-seen thinking).

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by raikage

[
Example: Kakashi vs Zabuza

Zabuza begins the seal sequence for Water Dragon
Kakashi mimics the first 3-5 seals
• The Sharingan begins to work and acceses memories of jutsus which have that particular seal sequence
• As Kakashi mimics the seals, the Sharingan narrows the list of possible jutsus from 1000 →100→20→10→5→1
• At this point, Kakashi knows that the jutsu will be Water Dragon, and the Sharingan recalls the rest of the seals; so Kakashi can perform the jutsu faster than Zabuza can.

One conclusion from this theory is that the Sharingan is useless against a new jutsu or against a hand-to-hand style it has never encountered before (my you-can't-copy-what-you-haven't-seen thinking).

I thought what Zabuza said after Haku's breakdown of the Sharingan was that Kakashi hypnotically suggested that Zabuza go with the Water Dragon. (Which I believe he had used before in that fight.) This was after Kakashi already knew he had the hypnotic suggestion established when he finished Zabuza's sentence for him, and freaked him out.

So, Kakashi suggests that he use Water Dragon, and since he knows that's what Zabuza's going to use, Kakashi has that split second advantage on him, and completes it before Zabuza does.

[C. perfringens]

Originally Posted by raikage

Coder8, you seem to really be stuck on the thoughts that the Sharingan can see through Kagebunshins. You defend the rooftop fight with "Well, he just beat up all the clones b/c he felt like it" which, if true, would make Sasuke an incredibly DUMB ninja - doing far more and wasting more energy than he needs to against an opponent who will NEVER run out of chakra and can create more clones in the blink of an eye.

About the Sharingan predicting movements - I think that has to do with the eye-brain connection, and in fact the Sharingan would actually alter the brain when activated.
The eye would allow better access to specific memories - in this case, jutsus or hand-to-hand combat.

Example: Kakashi vs Zabuza

Zabuza begins the seal sequence for Water Dragon
Kakashi mimics the first 3-5 seals
• The Sharingan begins to work and acceses memories of jutsus which have that particular seal sequence
• As Kakashi mimics the seals, the Sharingan narrows the list of possible jutsus from 1000 →100→20→10→5→1
• At this point, Kakashi knows that the jutsu will be Water Dragon, and the Sharingan recalls the rest of the seals; so Kakashi can perform the jutsu faster than Zabuza can.

One conclusion from this theory is that the Sharingan is useless against a new jutsu or against a hand-to-hand style it has never encountered before (my you-can't-copy-what-you-haven't-seen thinking).

Spoiler:

According to Zubza and Haku, hypnotism is behind the sharingan. Kakashi hypnotized Zubza and forced him to use the water dragon jitsu. Kakashi then just used the same jitsu as Zubza to freak him out. I think this is probably correct considering how Itachi uses Sharingan later in the series.

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by C. perfringens

Spoiler:

According to Zubza and Haku, hypnotism is behind the sharingan. Kakashi hypnotized Zubza and forced him to use the water dragon jitsu. Kakashi then just used the same jitsu as Zubza to freak him out. I think this is probably correct considering how Itachi uses Sharingan later in the series.

Why'd you spoiler that? Especially since I said the same thing unspoilered in the post above yours...this already happened in the manga, anime, and the US licensed version of the manga.

[raikage]

Good points, guys, and I also agree that IF the hypnotism thing is true, it is supported by Itachi's use of the eye.

However, for the hypnotism theory to hold true, we would have to know that Zabuza was coerced into using a jutsu that he would not otherwise have used.

Since there is no proof of that one either way, I'll leave it alone.

Anyhow, my whole thing was meant as an example of how the Sharingan can give its user better reaction times in combat. The whole 'he sees faster' thing doesn't hold water unless we also assume that the Sharingan manipulates the brain to think faster than normal, which...yeah..could also be the case.

[Shadamehr]

The way I see it, you assume nobody has a power until the Manga says they do. The manga has told us for the Sharingan:

1) read/copy/predict taijutsu, ninjutsu, gengutsu
2) see through genjutsu (of insufficient level)
3) hypnotism

That's it. Nothing about seeing things in slow-mo, and nothing about seeing through kage-bunshin (not a genjutsu!).

If the manga never says Sharingan users see in slow-mo, and slow-mo is neither necessary for nor resultant from any of the three abilities we know they have, then why would you assume they can?

Furthermore, what indication have we ever had that Sharingan users can see the true kage-bunshin? First of all, in all fights involving Sharingan user vs. clones, the Sharingan user has never behaved as though they know which clone is real. In fact, several times they have obviously been duped. Secondly, all hints in the Manga indicate that the Byakugan is better at seeing the truth of things, and we already know that the Byakugan cannot see the real kage bunshin. There is ZERO reason to believe the Sharingan can.

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by raikage

However, for the hypnotism theory to hold true, we would have to know that Zabuza was coerced into using a jutsu that he would not otherwise have used.

Well, hypnotism isn't about doing something you necesarily wouldn't normally do...it's about someone else being the impetus for that action.

I knew a guy who was hypnotized. He says you aren't asleep or anything, you just kind of get the idea that what the hypnotist is saying is a really, really good idea.

[[Orochimaru]]

Originally Posted by wnkryo

Yes he would have beaten neji to a pulp. HAHAHA (to all you neji fans )

I agree, I think Neji looked quite suprised when he saw Rock Lee without his weights

[donna8157]

Hmm .. would Rock Lee have been able to beat Neji in the chuunin exams? Hm.. I don't know. There is a chance he could have, but I think Neji would've caught on. Although, this fight Lee would be able to hurt Neji a lot more etc etc and Neji would be surprised by the strength that Lee had.

It's kind of sad that Rock Lee had been pitted against Gaara for the first fight.

[JubeiYamazaki]

I think Rock Lee woulda of beaten Neji pretty badly, imo. Since Neji basically has Sasuke's Sharingan (without the copying abilities BS) in the form of his 360 degree defense grid. I think it'd be exactly like when Rock Lee fought Sasuke, Sasuke could see everything that was coming but was just simply too slow to respond. Plus I think based on Rock Lee's personality he would already have a fairly decent gauge of Neji's power and would most likely take off the weights before Neji would land his 1001-pointy-fingers-of-chakra-blockage. Even if Neji did land that move, wouldn't the flow of chakra from Rock Lee's gate opening basically negate the blocked points? Either way, I think Rock Lee woulda beaten everyone at that tournament execpt Gaara, and that's why he had to fight Gaara, cause any other match wouldn't make sense if he lost.

[Hairydolphin]

Since Neji basically has Sasuke's Sharingan (without the copying abilities BS) in the form of his 360 degree defense grid.

Lets not forget about Kaiten. :-p