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Old 2020-04-18, 05:15   Link #32501
Thess
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Musashi's bits at the end were totally Nasu though....And she is his character. Her whole fate and subsequent whatever in store is 100% his doing
You mean her battle...scene or the twins+Musashi message? The battle was too scantly described to be Nasu, in my opinion. There'll be more jargon nonsense and purple prose if was him. Plus he didn't even mention her in his Bamboo journal entry.
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Old 2020-04-18, 09:48   Link #32502
Rasen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
And Holmes is not even a mage. He is just a detective with some baritsu, that's it.
A detective Heroic Spirit in the Ruler class (the class that is almost supposed to function as an Administrator over Holy Grail wars)

Quote:
Surtr on the other hand is a texture busting level monstrosity.
1) Just because they're texture-busting monstrosities doesn't automatically mean everything they do is texture-busting. (BEHOLD MAH TEXTURE BUSTING SNEEZE). On top of which, IIRC, Ophelia kept telling him to spare Mash. Which means he was holding back on MC and company.

2) Surtr was stuck in a Servant body at the time. He may have given it a power boost, but I doubt he's was anywhere near his original form's power. (Otherwise, why go to all that trouble of unsealing himself)?

Yes, the body was an Age-of-Gods Dragon Slayer, but I doubt the difference in power between (Fake!Sigurd and Sherlock) is as large as the difference between (Hercules and human!Shirou). And BerserkerHercules failed to insta-kill Shirou despite a full-powered blow.

(Was Shirou going to die? Very much yes. But he lived long enough to be healed. And I don't think his body is anywhere close to Servant-level toughness.)

3) On a slightly different note, doesn't the whole Servant system gimp any overly powered beings? IIRC, Artemis had to lower....everything such that she could piggy-back onto our summon of Teddy Bear Orion. I would imagine Surtr-as-Sigurd was in a similar situation.

So to go back to my original question: Surtr was basically handicapped, gimped, and going easy on us. (Can we also throw in class-disadvantage?) So was there any other factor that makes it strange that a Ruler Sherlock was able to survive in near-critical condition?

Quote:
Surtr actually has the tools to wipe Chaldea if wasn't for Ophelia's Sirius Light.
Wait, what? I thought Sirius Light was a Wodime thing. Do all the Crypters have a Sirius Light, and what is it?
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Old 2020-04-18, 10:15   Link #32503
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Wait, what? I thought Sirius Light was a Wodime thing. Do all the Crypters have a Sirius Light, and what is it?
I'm sleepy so I didn't read what else you wrote (sorry!), but I'll answer this: All Crypters have Sirius' Light. First, it was assumed it was something the "god of another planet" gave them because of what Kotomine said, but then turns out it was Marisbury Animusphere who somehow gave them such ridiculous power. Wodime says Marisbury told him it was to "save the world".
Spoiler for Olympus and speculation:
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Last edited by Thess; 2020-04-18 at 10:26.
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Old 2020-04-18, 11:28   Link #32504
shmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
A detective Heroic Spirit in the Ruler class (the class that is almost supposed to function as an Administrator over Holy Grail wars)
And? Ruler still had its own pro and cons, with it's pro being having command seals to use against other servants (which Holmes do not have), there is nothing of Ruler that makes you having especially high defense.

And I won't contest Holmes surviving. But the degree of convenience in his survival certainly is.

The nerf on the servants may not necessarily happens. It is more about can the summoner afford it.

And yes, all Crypters had Sirius Light. ...I have to ask, did you read the dialogue or not. Or you just hit skip button and pretend you read it?
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Old 2020-04-18, 17:06   Link #32505
AC-Phoenix
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Just apssed E Pluribus second half and...

Will I be able to test out the Servants I actually want to roll for (like Scathach) or will they keep Rick Ro-, I mean Elisabeth Rolling me..?
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Old 2020-04-18, 17:16   Link #32506
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Hercules is a Lion-slaying, half-God, from the Age of the Gods summoned into Berserker-class, with 12 Labors-worth of resurrection+resistance. Gilgamesh is also a demi-god from the Age of the Gods, with the prototype of almost every NP. Cu Chulann is a demi-god with a spear that reverses causality.

They don't always win.

Sometimes, they even lose to a modern-day mage, not even a Ruler-class Servant.
And their defeat is always justified by Nasu's adored rock-paper-scissor-esque power mechanics. None of which is present in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Just read Olympus....seriously. The bleaching happened before the Trees descended. Only Chaldea and scattered pockets of people underground survived the bleaching. It's confirmed here. Go see the documents Krys and Ophelia gathered. They didn't know about the bleaching or the Trees. None of them knew exactly what was going to happen so how can they be accomplices to wiping out pan-humanity when they don't even know when that happened and when the Alien can do it with ease and as a requirement for its aims?


In LB1 you only see the Trees descend. You never saw the exact moment the texture of the world got wiped. Even Kadoc says that to all Crypters barring Krystalia, the Alien is an unknown entity that just shackled them to its service as the price for reviving them (『異星の神』か。アンタもしらなかったんだな、オフェリア。僕もだよ...いいや、誰も知りはしない。僕 たちクリプターは『異星の神』の姿を知らない。僕たちを棺から蘇生させ、代償として異聞帯を育てさせた『何 か』としか). And we see subsequently that Krys doesn't even know that much either. Hell the Crypters including Krys even mistakenly assumed that the Trees were what bleached the earth. They absolutely did not even know that the Earth was already bleached and that pan-humanity was gone

Also, Kadoc makes it clear that the Alien God absolutely doesn't require the Crypters to wipe the Earth's texture. It could do it on its own with ease. What it needed the Crypters and Lost Belts for is some as yet unrevealed purpose relating to its obtaining a physical body.

That's an assumption at this point. And one that is highly uncertain.

And BTW, how would there even be Opritchniki if the world was unbleached and Pan-humanity still around? You also never see Kadoc at the start. The ones leading that attack were Kirei and Vicchi acting on Ivan's orders. Fact is, everything points to Pan-humanity being already gone when the pods were opened. If anything.....and I chalk this down to it being the prologue and thus editing department hasn't really got full wraps on it, it's the incosistency between Ivan being able to attack Chaldea and the Trees being still on descent. But you can handwave that as "the Trees were already active, just not installed yet" or something I guess. That or something else is up no one yet knows

And finally, plenty of stuff involving Krystalia involves reading between lines which you may not be willing to accept, but do you seriously think he wouldn't have preserved Pan Humanity if he could? He included Chaldea of all people in his plans. He pretty much implies that ascended humanity would, despite all the kinks in evolution, reach a high enough level where their problems would be solved. And we know Krys is no friend of the Alien God. Does not this sound like his counterattack against the Alien?

And no, he did not make his contract with the Alien for this goal of ascending humanity at the expense of Pan-humanity. Because to do so, he would have to know about the Trees to a pretty large extent beforehand. He wouldn't have needed to carry out his investigation and data gathering like was shown in LB5. If you say he did that (betraying pan-humanity while knowing absolutely nothing about the Alien) with full knowledge he would be sacrificing Pan-humanity in the bargain, it does not compute because 1) It would be the biggest gamble ever, trusting that the Alien has some way he can take advantage of at the expense of wiping the world out and 2) Krys does not even hate Pan-Humans nor consider them expendable. Narratative-wise, the point of Krys background chapter is to establish he ISN'T a nihilist. Even if you say he considers them necessary sacrifices this is the entire human race we are talking about. And on the other hand we have a completely unknown, totally untrustworthy, alien entity
All Kadoc's investigation revealed is their ignorance of the mechanics of the trees/lostbelts and the correlation between them and the bleaching. None of this proves that they didn't know that the bleaching would happen. In fact, it proves that they initially assumed that the trees caused the bleaching.

You're saying that while Chaldea was under inspection over the course of several days, the earth was whited without them knowing? The fact that the crypters initially assumed that the descent of the trees caused the whitening means that the two events occurred simultaneously and the prologue clearly showed Chaldea witnessing the descent of the trees after their escape from the attack by Anastasia.

But that is clearly what happened. The oprichniki, which are created by LB King Ivan's power, appeared before the whitening or the descent of the trees, which implies the lostbelts were already active before the descent. I can only assume that the descent of the trees as witnessed was not equivalent to the activation of the lostbelts. The event probably signaled their pasting onto the present day earth. Furthermore, Anastasia is not native to the Russian lostbelt. She is a servant specifically summoned by Kadoc. All of this together means that the lostbelts were active along with their respective crypters well before the attack on Chaldea and therefore the bleaching of the earth and descent of the trees.

We know the alien god only chose Wodime at first and only included the other crypters at his behest. We know that in order to harvest the energy for their resurrection, Wodime had to beat a simulation of Part 1 while partnered with each one, proving that interaction and therefore communication with the deceased was possible. It simply makes no sense for the alien god to try and drag them into its scheme. The only benefit the crypters get from its deal are their lives and in exchange they are charged with nurturing their trees along with other conditions with penalties for violations (see Kadoc). There's no point in hiding that its plan entailed trashing Pan Human History. Since it needed the crypters, or rather Wodime, to nurture the trees, it wouldn't do for them to get cold feet by withholding the consequences of its plan.

As for the morality of Wodime's actions, while he did scheme against the alien god his true plan also entailed the usurpation of Pan Human History. He would not, as you claim otherwise, have tried to preserve Pan Human History if he could. Not while the possibility of realizing his own goal still existed. In the end, his master plan like Goetia involved the destruction of a world, worlds if you include the other lostbelts that would lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Yeah Remove Evil+Third magic.

Spoiler for wodime:
Quite the opposite. Wodime's lost faith in humanity's ability to make the right decisions. As he puts it, humanity's nature is to make the wrong choice and then clean up the resulting mess. That said, he still loves humanity and wants it to thrive in spite of this shortcoming. As I said before, his plan isn't intended to actually fix humanity's nature, but allow each and every human to realize its potential.

Taking those nanomachines might have compromised him and put him at the mercy of the gods.
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Old 2020-04-18, 18:36   Link #32507
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Just apssed E Pluribus second half and...

Will I be able to test out the Servants I actually want to roll for (like Scathach) or will they keep Rick Ro-, I mean Elisabeth Rolling me..?

Why not find a person with Scathach and use his/her servant? Since you're in the NA server, I'll put her up for you to use if you can find me.

Edit: She's in the "any" servant slot now.

Edit 2: If your friend's list is open, you can pm me and I'll give you my friend number so you can friend me. That way if you need a servant and I have it, you can ask me to put it in a slot.
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Last edited by orion; 2020-04-19 at 10:58.
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Old 2020-04-18, 18:59   Link #32508
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Quite the opposite. Wodime's lost faith in humanity's ability to make the right decisions. As he puts it, humanity's nature is to make the wrong choice and then clean up the resulting mess. That said, he still loves humanity and wants it to thrive in spite of this shortcoming. As I said before, his plan isn't intended to actually fix humanity's nature, but allow each and every human to realize its potential.

Taking those nanomachines might have compromised him and put him at the mercy of the gods.
Huh? He places the only big failings of humanity in their physical limitations rather than losing faith in their mistakes. He seems that base disparity the source of the issue, not their mistakes. You know his 'defeated' line recorded for Atlantis (which was impossible to access) and released by Nasu was: "Why, it's just a defeat or two. That doesn't lower a person's value." And Nasu says "that's his true nature". Mistakes are fine. One of his last speeches to encourage Chaldea was that humanity can't choose the correct answer, so what is important is "what should we do after this".

Humanity being wrong isn't him "losing faith", but actually a fact Nasu agrees and parrots in his blog. So you're not supposed to take it as him losing faith in humans. Otherwise, he wouldn't be so trusting. Tamavinch told Ophelia Wodime accepted Humanity's flaws back in LB2, by the way.

Also Holmes, Mashu, Caenis and Musashi used nanomachines and fought those gods fine. There's no plot reason other than giving Wodime a weakness to justify why he's not cleaning the house.

Also about the bleaching, since LB1 it established the "god of another planet" did the attack. Even Beryl said they haven't done anything yet (most of the Crypters didn't even have access to the trees or were in control). But speaking of the Tabula Rasa, I have my theories, and surprisingly I stumbled upon twitters with similar dwellings.
Spoiler for theory:
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Last edited by Thess; 2020-04-18 at 19:22.
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Old 2020-04-18, 19:09   Link #32509
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Just apssed E Pluribus second half and...

Will I be able to test out the Servants I actually want to roll for (like Scathach) or will they keep Rick Ro-, I mean Elisabeth Rolling me..?
What Orion said (use a support) or there's the Scathach trial quest that can be unlocked via rare prisms (I think, not sure if NA has this available yet). But she's limited and only seems to be available during New Years anymore, so you got a while to try her out.
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Old 2020-04-18, 23:46   Link #32510
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
A detective Heroic Spirit in the Ruler class (the class that is almost supposed to function as an Administrator over Holy Grail wars)
It's said that he is a ruler because they don't want him prying. As a Ruler, he is bound be the rules to preserve balance. His curiosity is seen as a threat. I don't think he is necessarily evil but rather he can seen as a serious threat to both sides because of his curiosity. The world doesn't want him to unravel its mysteries. And the alien god doesn't want him to unravel his secrets before it is ready to act.
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Old 2020-04-19, 07:17   Link #32511
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
What Orion said (use a support) or there's the Scathach trial quest that can be unlocked via rare prisms (I think, not sure if NA has this available yet).
It is, but trial quests aren't really worth the expense, are they?
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Old 2020-04-19, 08:01   Link #32512
GDB
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Generally not, no.
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Old 2020-04-19, 10:30   Link #32513
Thess
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It is, but trial quests aren't really worth the expense, are they?
They reward a ticket, which could mean a SSR or... just a R Craft Essense!
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Old 2020-04-19, 11:33   Link #32514
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It is, but trial quests aren't really worth the expense, are they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
They reward a ticket, which could mean a SSR or... just a R Craft Essense!
Either way, it's less money that you are spending.
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Old 2020-04-19, 12:38   Link #32515
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Either way, it's less money that you are spending.
Bold of you to assume I ever spent money in this game.
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Old 2020-04-19, 15:43   Link #32516
heroeric
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I heard the Wodime's plan couldn't include the Crypters because some part of their contract with the Alien god. So it is possible that for the same reason the contract make is so Wodime wouldn't use the nano machines.
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Old 2020-04-19, 16:23   Link #32517
orion
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Bold of you to assume I ever spent money in this game.
At some point, you will spend money on this game. *evil laugh*
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Old 2020-04-19, 16:56   Link #32518
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Huh? He places the only big failings of humanity in their physical limitations rather than losing faith in their mistakes. He seems that base disparity the source of the issue, not their mistakes. You know his 'defeated' line recorded for Atlantis (which was impossible to access) and released by Nasu was: "Why, it's just a defeat or two. That doesn't lower a person's value." And Nasu says "that's his true nature". Mistakes are fine. One of his last speeches to encourage Chaldea was that humanity can't choose the correct answer, so what is important is "what should we do after this".

Humanity being wrong isn't him "losing faith", but actually a fact Nasu agrees and parrots in his blog. So you're not supposed to take it as him losing faith in humans. Otherwise, he wouldn't be so trusting. Tamavinch told Ophelia Wodime accepted Humanity's flaws back in LB2, by the way.

Also Holmes, Mashu, Caenis and Musashi used nanomachines and fought those gods fine. There's no plot reason other than giving Wodime a weakness to justify why he's not cleaning the house.

Also about the bleaching, since LB1 it established the "god of another planet" did the attack. Even Beryl said they haven't done anything yet (most of the Crypters didn't even have access to the trees or were in control). But speaking of the Tabula Rasa, I have my theories, and surprisingly I stumbled upon twitters with similar dwellings.
Spoiler for theory:
You're parroting what I said and contradicting you're previous statement. You were the one who said that he's "got a blind sense of trust in humanity doing the Right Thing on their own."

Chaldea and co. received their nanomachines from the gods who sided with humanity.

Who committed the act is irrelevant. The point is these crypters chose to become an accomplice to the act. Regardless of their contribution, they choose to stand in the away of recovering that which was lost.

The opening is metaphorical. The prologue clearly has Anastasia freezing Chaldea. That oversized globe is a model of Gaia and represents the state of the planet. Doing something to it won't affect the planet. I assume rayshifting was a threat only when Pan Human History still existed. With it gone, there's no when to rayshift to.
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Old 2020-04-19, 17:00   Link #32519
dragon1412
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I think there is a lot of assumption though. From where I see it, what is confirmed is:

- The bleaching isn't cause by the tree. And the crypters shown so far themselves aren't aware of how the lostbelts actually work. Alien god is implies to have the power to do so, but we never shown actual scene or having evidence of it. We might need to go to LB6 or Kadoc waking up before we can actually know the mechanism of the lostbelts.

- Holmes is suspicious, remarked by multiple characters. But other than that, we don't know much more about him
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Old 2020-04-20, 05:20   Link #32520
AC-Phoenix
Detective
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Why not find a person with Scathach and use his/her servant? Since you're in the NA server, I'll put her up for you to use if you can find me.

Edit: She's in the "any" servant slot now.

Edit 2: If your friend's list is open, you can pm me and I'll give you my friend number so you can friend me. That way if you need a servant and I have it, you can ask me to put it in a slot.
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
What Orion said (use a support) or there's the Scathach trial quest that can be unlocked via rare prisms (I think, not sure if NA has this available yet). But she's limited and only seems to be available during New Years anymore, so you got a while to try her out.
The main issue is that the game keeps Rickrolling me with Elisabeth... Well to be fair I , I only expected Scathach because I knew she had a role and should have guessed it when Mash stopped me from saying it.

---
Can someone please give input on my pinup roll tactic for the Apo one?

Prio:
1. Jeanne
2. Atalante
3. Either an Assassin(Semiramis), Lancer or Saber.
4.) A Berserker that doesn't bark...

Atalanta is featured, so I'll roll her last, as she won't run away. Jeanne is up every day, but usually competes with other Servants, in addition to the ones already featured, hence I'll only roll for her on days where she is alone. It's just two days worth of chances, but she'll only compete with Fran, Astolpho and Siegfried that way.
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