Character Discussion - Shirley

[ginran]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

Hm, you do have a good point. There is a more practical consideration, though - how would she have been able to join the Black Knights and remain close to Lelouch without people growing suspicious of their relationship? After all, most of the Black Knights still didn't know Lelouch's true identity until Schneizel spilled the beans in that hideously selective manner of his. If this girl joins the Black Knights and suddenly is thick as thieves with Zero, how long before someone other than Kallen wonders how they know each other so well? C.C. is all very well since she's a mystery anyway; but if anyone went sniffing after Shirley, it wouldn't be long before they came across Lelouch Lamperouge, who oddly enough also happens to (supposedly) be Rolo's elder brother... it would complicate things, is what I'm saying. Possibly Lelouch would've decided it safer for them only to meet outside the Black Knights - though that, on the flipside, would likely limit their time together. Tricky.

That's a really good point. It wouldn't be as easy as just joining them with no strings attached. In that case, I think Lelouch would have told her not to join and enjoy her life at Ashford, meeting with her when he was able. That would limit their time like you said, but it would be much safer for everyone involved. But if it would stay that way would be a matter of how the series would have ended had that been the route they took...meaning would Lelouch have stayed Zero forever or found some other solution?

Originally Posted by Yamiken

On a slightly different note, if she did join the Black Knights, what do you think her role would've been? Everyone thinks of Shirley as 'the normal girl who's just there to be female', but if you think about it, she might actually be quite useful to them. She's not stupid, after all, and moreover her swim club activities seem to show that she's quite athletic. And since that seems to be one of the main factors for determining proficiency with a Knightmare Frame (just look at Suzaku and Kallen), that could actually make her pretty skilled at it - hard though it is to think of Shirley in a Knightmare Frame. XD But then, would she have the stomach for combat? It's not really in her nature, after all... what are your thoughts?

Good question. XD In the event that it worked out, she could probably be like a bridge bunny (just featured a more frequently than the other 3) or someone who helps the crew in non-combat type things. She could even keep track of important information. While I think her athletic ability means she could be very good at being a pilot, she wouldn't be comfortable unless there was no other option and even then she would be unwilling to ever hurt anyone. It would work out somehow for her if there was a way to join them with not much trouble...plus she looked really awesome in the outfit from the small calender pic they did recently. Hahaha~

Originally Posted by Yamiken

Ahh, I see. That'd be why I didn't recognise them at once, then; never watched or read that series. Oh well, they look pretty... fun, heh.

I recommend it, though I'm really behind in following it. XD They are very fun characters haha!

[Sol Falling]

As far as Shirley joining the Black Knights, there was an image from the 2012 Code Geass calendar which was posted in the "New Code Geass Project launched" thread which I thought was pretty interesting. Anyway, as far as how Shirley could fit into the Black Knights, I think her role would actually be fairly major.

If we recall, Shirley's core mission from the moment she decided what she wanted to do for Lelouch was to ensure that "Lelouch is never alone". Shirley understood, from Lelouch's situation, that practically the whole world had become his enemy, and so she took it as her mission to return his friends. Her first step was reconciling his broken relationship with Suzaku. The next goal was to somehow reunite with Nunally. All the people Lelouch cared about, Shirley would have devoted her life to rejoining Lelouch to them.

The next step would be more general and wide-reaching. Not simply rescuing his personal loved ones, but Shirley would've pursued helping Lelouch gain real allies. That is because she understands that Lelouch's kind heart is hiding under a mask. But that kind heart is what she believes needs to be brought out into reality. As such, I believe one of Shirley's first major tasks upon joining the Black Knights would be to help Lelouch confide his true identity to the general organization. Because Shirley genuinely believes in Lelouch's goodness, and because she knows that she herself was able to forgive him, I think that Shirley would clearly feel that it should be possible for Lelouch's allies to understand him. This would be the first step in building a foundation of real trust in the organization, and at the same time easily explain and establish a purpose for Shirley's role beside him.

What Shirley would essentially be doing is building a network of real friends and allies around Lelouch to support him. She would in time become his diplomatic adviser, and his strongest advocate for Hope. Shirley's background and personal experiences regarding Lelouch would make her ideally suited for diplomatic functions of establishing Lelouch's faith and credibility. By forcing Lelouch's real goodness out into the open, Shirley would be instrumental in moving the organization towards helping the world move towards a direction of genuinely constructive reform/diplomacy.

I myself believe that Zero: Requiem was the best solution, both politically and emotionally, for Lelouch in the aftermath of Shirley's death. But it is easy for me to see the ways in which Shirley could have drastically changed the outcome of Code Geass's ending, and been the strongest ally to Lelouch that he would ever have. For me, not only on a personal level, Shirley's death can without question be seen as the greatest tragedy in the story's narrative.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

Agreed start to finish. Thanks for saying it.



I think they'll always definitely be that, unless somewhere were to happen to really drive a wedge between them (in which case someone like V.V. or Schneizel would most likely be blame). But anyway, that's a topic more suited to the C.C. thread. XD

Adding to the idea of Shirley averting the Zero Requiem: it does of course rest on the assumption that the Zero Requiem was a bad thing, or at least that equally good alternatives existed. A lot of people say that Lelouch should've just ruled Britannia well, as he seemed to start doing, but I'm not so sure about this. Whilst Lelouch is undoubtedly brilliant, see, he's at his heart a rebel, a revolutionary, not an establishment figure. He operates by far at his best when he's outside the system, not within it. History itself tells us that such character archetypes often do badly if they are placed in charge of the system, even a new system of their own making - even if they don't fall into outright tyranny, which Lelouch, had he not been pulling a Zero Popularity Gambit, hopefully wouldn't have, they often lack the skills to transform their vision into a reality without a tangible enemy to agitate against - or, if they do manage to successfully transform what they're now in charge of, they just prove to be somewhat incompetent about managing it afterwards, or at least not as suited to doing so as others. Would Lelouch have been able to avoid this? Perhaps, but I'm not convinced. So that's one facet of the objections to the Zero Requiem that I disagree with.

Lelouch rebelled out of necessity. He set up a legitimate international body with the UFN on top of the Black Knights, which alone should have proven his organizational leadership skills. On top of that, he was known as the Emperor of Justice right before he started taking the UFN representatives hostage as Emperor.

More than anything though, real life tells us that people fall into conflict over various things all of the time, which alone makes the ending absurd. On top of that, he had ended up causing more damage than he did during the rebellion.

It only makes sense in Lelouch doing it as a suicide plan. Not just because of Shirley's death, but Nunnally's apparent demise in the FLEIJA blast and the betrayal from the Black Knights.

[Yamiken]

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch rebelled out of necessity. He set up a legitimate international body with the UFN on top of the Black Knights, which alone should have proven his organizational leadership skills. On top of that, he was known as the Emperor of Justice right before he started taking the UFN representatives hostage as Emperor.

Maybe it was necessity, but that doesn't mean it didn't play into Lelouch's character. He could have chosen a path like Suzaku's, or Schneizel's if you believe the latter to have benevolent motives (if you don't, just imagine for a moment that he did). He didn't, partly because he reasoned that the path of rebellion was more effective and more moral, but also because that was just in his character. This is the kid who went into court and called out the Emperor of Britannia for not doing his job properly. Sure, it didn't particularly go so well, and it was in no small part motivated by grief, but it took guts, and a rebellious spirit. Being (effectively or utterly) disinherited and sent to a foreign nation as a hostage, which soon became a war zone, is only going to have hardened these instincts in him. Lelouch is a rebel; that's his purpose in the plot. Half the point of the story, after all, is about the rebellion of the young against the former generations who've ruined the world for them. Hell, the word "rebellion" is even in the title, and Lelouch's name is right next to it. That's what he is.

Yes, he set up the UFN. He had no intention on running it. He knows there must be a system, but that doesn't make him suited to running it. I could make all sorts of pronouncements about how the world ought to be run from the safety of my figurative (sometimes literal) armchair, and I'd like to think that some of them have a good bit of sense in them, but I'd never make a good leader because I'm just too damn indecisive. Lelouch is by no means indecisive, but the parallel nevertheless stands. When he set up the UFN, Lelouch let Kaguya and the other world leaders run the political side of things; he just wanted to lead the Black Knights against Britannia. I imagine that if he'd won without dying, he'd have more or less retired from public life.

As for being Emperor of Justice for a while: being Emperor of Justice for a month (or how long) off-screen is one hell of a lot easier than being it for life on-screen (or so-to-speak), particularly when he had the last vestiges of the old Britannian system to focus himself on eradicating for that month. Plenty of revolutionaries have started off running the show pretty well, but far fewer have managed to sustain that over a period of many years. Again, I'm not saying that Lelouch definitely would've been a failure as Emperor, but I think that it's very likely, and entirely in his character archetype.

Originally Posted by azul120

More than anything though, real life tells us that people fall into conflict over various things all of the time, which alone makes the ending absurd. On top of that, he had ended up causing more damage than he did during the rebellion.

There is another part of the Zero Requiem: Lelouch ordered the world so that his close friends, people whose character he trusts, are in charge of it once he's gone. Suzaku is Zero, a hero figure with a lot of influence even if he doesn't hold a formal position (though I'd guess he's still leader of the Black Knights); Schneizel, incredibly competent whatever your interpretation of his character, is bound by Geass to serve Zero loyally; Nunnally, his own sweet little sister, is in charge of the Britannian Empire (or what's left of it); Kaguya and the others leader the UFN, which makes up the rest of the world. It also wouldn't surprise me if Lelouch disbanded all armies but his own during his time as Emperor, and probably quite bloodily; the latter part is regrettable, but at least it means that armed rebellions are less likely to happen, whilst the Black Knights, I expect, will be the only organised military force left in the world (save perhaps the Britannian army, at least at first, but that's under Nunnally's control anyway). So it's not just 'Lelouch the monster dies, everything is fixed'. The technical aspects are, to me, almost as important to the Zero Requiem as the symbolic one.

Almost, but not quite. The reason none of these details are brought to the fore is, of course, that they're far less important to the story. And this is the real reason why I like the Zero Requiem and want to defend it. Yes, it was bloody, though the wars it replaced would also have been bloody; after all, it's hardly as though Lelouch would've been able to take down Britannia without spilling rivers of blood however he did it, and he'd almost certainly have had to face off against Schneizel sooner or later. But it was a story of atonement, it was a happy ending that I pray we're not all too cynical to enjoy, and damn it all, it was just utterly fabulous. In short, it was a near-perfect end to the series. I'll admit that, from a realistic, cynical point of view, the Zero Requiem was at best no sure thing. It could've all gone wrong, even after Lelouch's death happening as it did. But I honestly don't think that matters. The thematic sense it makes, and the lift it gave me despite all the bad that had happened, matter far more. And that's why I defend it.

Originally Posted by azul120

It only makes sense in Lelouch doing it as a suicide plan. Not just because of Shirley's death, but Nunnally's apparent demise in the FLEIJA blast and the betrayal from the Black Knights.

Grief shaped Lelouch's thinking, yes. I'm not going to try and deny it. Alternative routes almost certainly existed. He admitted as much to Suzaku in the end. That doesn't mean those routes would've been better, that his thinking was wrong even while it was warped by the impact of the apparent death of his loved ones. We can make good decisions even if the way we arrived at those decisions wasn't ideal; that both process and results matter, neither to the total exclusion of the other, is to my mind one of the central themes, ultimately, of Code Geass, what we're to take away from Lelouch and Suzaku's conflict and, ultimately, alliance.

In closing: I'm probably making the show sound a lot deeper than it, overall, deserves credit for here, and even a lot deeper than I really think it is. By and large, Code Geass isn't deep; it's a fabulous show with large hams, giant robots, Xanatos tropes up the wazoo and more plot holes than than a particular holey bit of Leicester cheese. But that doesn't mean it didn't have anything going on beneath all that, and the ending, the Zero Requiem, was where that came to the fore, where the show as at its deepest. And that's why I disagree, politely, with people who call it no more than a silly, arse-pull happy ending.

Now, if you still want to take me up on this (which if you disagree I by all means encourage you to do), I suggest we take this onto either Lelouch's thread of the Turn 25 thread.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

Maybe it was necessity, but that doesn't mean it didn't play into Lelouch's character. He could have chosen a path like Suzaku's, or Schneizel's if you believe the latter to have benevolent motives (if you don't, just imagine for a moment that he did). He didn't, partly because he reasoned that the path of rebellion was more effective and more moral, but also because that was just in his character. This is the kid who went into court and called out the Emperor of Britannia for not doing his job properly. Sure, it didn't particularly go so well, and it was in no small part motivated by grief, but it took guts, and a rebellious spirit. Being (effectively or utterly) disinherited and sent to a foreign nation as a hostage, which soon became a war zone, is only going to have hardened these instincts in him. Lelouch is a rebel; that's his purpose in the plot. Half the point of the story, after all, is about the rebellion of the young against the former generations who've ruined the world for them. Hell, the word "rebellion" is even in the title, and Lelouch's name is right next to it. That's what he is.

Lelouch was still abiding within the structure of the Empire when he called out his father. It was after the invasion of Japan that he pretty much discarded the idea of changing Brittania from within for good.

Suzaku was the opposite, a rebellious child who freaked out after his big stunt, killing his father to stop his nation from fighting to the death, ended with Japan's occupation, and his lack of punishment. It was because of that that he tried working within the system in hopes of peaceful change, though with a secret death wish.

Yes, he set up the UFN. He had no intention on running it. He knows there must be a system, but that doesn't make him suited to running it. I could make all sorts of pronouncements about how the world ought to be run from the safety of my figurative (sometimes literal) armchair, and I'd like to think that some of them have a good bit of sense in them, but I'd never make a good leader because I'm just too damn indecisive. Lelouch is by no means indecisive, but the parallel nevertheless stands. When he set up the UFN, Lelouch let Kaguya and the other world leaders run the political side of things; he just wanted to lead the Black Knights against Britannia. I imagine that if he'd won without dying, he'd have more or less retired from public life.

As for being Emperor of Justice for a while: being Emperor of Justice for a month (or how long) off-screen is one hell of a lot easier than being it for life on-screen (or so-to-speak), particularly when he had the last vestiges of the old Britannian system to focus himself on eradicating for that month. Plenty of revolutionaries have started off running the show pretty well, but far fewer have managed to sustain that over a period of many years. Again, I'm not saying that Lelouch definitely would've been a failure as Emperor, but I think that it's very likely, and entirely in his character archetype.

He could make a miraculous return as Zero himself as agent and figurehead of justice instead of leaving it for Suzaku, who is ill-equipped for the job. Besides, we never got to see what he might be capable of in peacetime, solely because he got his start via the battlefield.

There is another part of the Zero Requiem: Lelouch ordered the world so that his close friends, people whose character he trusts, are in charge of it once he's gone. Suzaku is Zero, a hero figure with a lot of influence even if he doesn't hold a formal position (though I'd guess he's still leader of the Black Knights); Schneizel, incredibly competent whatever your interpretation of his character, is bound by Geass to serve Zero loyally; Nunnally, his own sweet little sister, is in charge of the Britannian Empire (or what's left of it); Kaguya and the others leader the UFN, which makes up the rest of the world. It also wouldn't surprise me if Lelouch disbanded all armies but his own during his time as Emperor, and probably quite bloodily; the latter part is regrettable, but at least it means that armed rebellions are less likely to happen, whilst the Black Knights, I expect, will be the only organised military force left in the world (save perhaps the Britannian army, at least at first, but that's under Nunnally's control anyway). So it's not just 'Lelouch the monster dies, everything is fixed'. The technical aspects are, to me, almost as important to the Zero Requiem as the symbolic one.

Again, Suzaku is wrong for the job of Zero. And Schneizel could theoretically break free of Lelouch's geass by some loophole.

Almost, but not quite. The reason none of these details are brought to the fore is, of course, that they're far less important to the story. And this is the real reason why I like the Zero Requiem and want to defend it. Yes, it was bloody, though the wars it replaced would also have been bloody; after all, it's hardly as though Lelouch would've been able to take down Britannia without spilling rivers of blood however he did it, and he'd almost certainly have had to face off against Schneizel sooner or later. But it was a story of atonement, it was a happy ending that I pray we're not all too cynical to enjoy, and damn it all, it was just utterly fabulous. In short, it was a near-perfect end to the series. I'll admit that, from a realistic, cynical point of view, the Zero Requiem was at best no sure thing. It could've all gone wrong, even after Lelouch's death happening as it did. But I honestly don't think that matters. The thematic sense it makes, and the lift it gave me despite all the bad that had happened, matter far more. And that's why I defend it.

Consider this for a moment: Lelouch had made himself to be the worst person in the world in that short time. Worse than Emperor Charles, for instance, who was known for being a darwinist. What we do know is that Lelouch brainwashed his troops and made them wear full face masks into combat, uses them as meat shields, assassinated people for dissenting against him (CC lampshades this in a picture drama), and blows up Mt. Fuji, likely causing a ton of damage over Japan. And by that time, if you'll remember, the Black Knights rivaled if not exceeded Britannia. Lelouch actually made it harder on himself by opposing everyone else unilaterally, if you'll remember, which should be enough to put a wrench in the theory of it being less bloody. He could have faced Schneizel WITH the assistance of everyone else instead of just Suzaku, Jeremiah and a brigade of mooks. Worse, he waited a whole month and allowed Schneizel to come out of hiding with Damocles instead of at least trying to find him beforehand.

Grief shaped Lelouch's thinking, yes. I'm not going to try and deny it. Alternative routes almost certainly existed. He admitted as much to Suzaku in the end. That doesn't mean those routes would've been better, that his thinking was wrong even while it was warped by the impact of the apparent death of his loved ones. We can make good decisions even if the way we arrived at those decisions wasn't ideal; that both process and results matter, neither to the total exclusion of the other, is to my mind one of the central themes, ultimately, of Code Geass, what we're to take away from Lelouch and Suzaku's conflict and, ultimately, alliance.

Perhaps, but it's perfectly justifiable to point out the failings of one's chosen strategy, regardless of the reasons behind them. The problem here is that the process and outcome are overly glorified in the narrative in spite of various outstanding issues.

In closing: I'm probably making the show sound a lot deeper than it, overall, deserves credit for here, and even a lot deeper than I really think it is. By and large, Code Geass isn't deep; it's a fabulous show with large hams, giant robots, Xanatos tropes up the wazoo and more plot holes than than a particular holey bit of Leicester cheese. But that doesn't mean it didn't have anything going on beneath all that, and the ending, the Zero Requiem, was where that came to the fore, where the show as at its deepest. And that's why I disagree, politely, with people who call it no more than a silly, arse-pull happy ending.

Now, if you still want to take me up on this (which if you disagree I by all means encourage you to do), I suggest we take this onto either Lelouch's thread of the Turn 25 thread.

It was an ass pull, unfortunately. Especially considering the leading conditions, and the happy endings undeservedly given to some of the other characters instead.

[Yamiken]

I'm going to post my response to this on the sticky'd thread. We've been off-topic here too long.

[DarkyPwnz]

Shirley is a great character,but her death was surely an important event that was the catalyst to many others happened later on. I wouldn't mind having her back somehow,and I am royally pissed by how the Britannians could save Mao from over ten bullets and not Shirley from just one.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by DarkyPwnz

Shirley is a great character,but her death was surely an important event that was the catalyst to many others happened later on. I wouldn't mind having her back somehow,and I am royally pissed by how the Britannians could save Mao from over ten bullets and not Shirley from just one.

Same. Ditto Euphie.

[TheFallenxLullaby]

Originally Posted by DarkyPwnz

Shirley is a great character,but her death was surely an important event that was the catalyst to many others happened later on. I wouldn't mind having her back somehow,and I am royally pissed by how the Britannians could save Mao from over ten bullets and not Shirley from just one.

I actually have no idea how Mao survived that, anyone would die. I guess Shirley was just unlucky. Poor girl, she didn't deserve it.

[AutarchSeverian]

Just a quick question on Shirley's death that may have been addressed before...

Lelouch gives Shirley a geass command to live when he sees her, and she responds to it - her eyes go red and she kind of responds to it verbally by promising to come back to life again over and over. Ultimately, it doesn't go through in the way he intended it, but this is still different than the few other times he's tried to use a geass multiple times on the same person (primarily based on the eyes going red, showing a response to the power of the king). Did his power actually get stronger without him ever noticing it? It might have changed the flow of the series if he had noticed this, and could have issued a second geass order to Suzaku.

[Yamiken]

Originally Posted by AutarchSeverian

Just a quick question on Shirley's death that may have been addressed before...

Lelouch gives Shirley a geass command to live when he sees her, and she responds to it - her eyes go red and she kind of responds to it verbally by promising to come back to life again over and over. Ultimately, it doesn't go through in the way he intended it, but this is still different than the few other times he's tried to use a geass multiple times on the same person (primarily based on the eyes going red, showing a response to the power of the king). Did his power actually get stronger without him ever noticing it? It might have changed the flow of the series if he had noticed this, and could have issued a second geass order to Suzaku.

I'm pretty sure the only reason he was able to Geass Shirley again was because the previous one on her had been removed by Jeremiah. I don't think it had anything to do with Lelouch's Geass getting stronger.

[AutarchSeverian]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

I'm pretty sure the only reason he was able to Geass Shirley again was because the previous one on her had been removed by Jeremiah. I don't think it had anything to do with Lelouch's Geass getting stronger.

Ohhh ya. Excellent point. Still, something not to be overlooked. Lelouch could finally release that poor girl from chalking up Ashford's wall...how is she going to function in the world once she graduates?

[Yamiken]

Originally Posted by AutarchSeverian

Ohhh ya. Excellent point. Still, something not to be overlooked. Lelouch could finally release that poor girl from chalking up Ashford's wall...how is she going to function in the world once she graduates?

I read somewhere that she supposedly kept trying to go back to Ashford to write on the wall. I'm not sure how legit that is, but it seems to be the logical conclusion. Kind of scary really...

[Roloko vi Britannia]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

I read somewhere that she supposedly kept trying to go back to Ashford to write on the wall. I'm not sure how legit that is, but it seems to be the logical conclusion. Kind of scary really...

They probably would have Jeremiah use his geass canceler on her so she would stop doing that.

Also I think there is no canon material that states she was trying to go back to Ashford to mark on the wall.

[Yamiken]

Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia

They probably would have Jeremiah use his geass canceler on her so she would stop doing that.

If they remembered to. Unfortunately, I think it quite likely they wouldn't have.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

I read somewhere that she supposedly kept trying to go back to Ashford to write on the wall. I'm not sure how legit that is, but it seems to be the logical conclusion. Kind of scary really...

From what I can remember, it is apparently something from an e-newsletter that was being released at the same time as R2 was being broadcast. The details should be somewhere else on this forum. In any case, the point is that the Geass command hadn't expired even if the person was physically removed and prevented from going to the wall's location.

[brolyeuphyfusion]

Okay, the cause of Shirley's death was massive Lelouch wanking

[azul120]

Originally Posted by brolyeuphyfusion

Okay, the cause of Shirley's death was massive Lelouch wanking

Specifically Rolo.

[daisukidayo5]

i hate to say this
but i always found her a little annoying
but i always did love her how optimistic she was

[Kusaja]

That sounds a bit contradictory...but if it works for you, then I guess that's fine.

Shirley's not one of my favorite characters though. I merely liked her well enough.