[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Maybe she's hoping for a way that will allow Battler to win while Bern loses. You can't say anything isn't certain with Lambdadelta, after all. She'll certainly make Battler win and Bern lose, all at once!

You know... Has Lambda ever actually done anything that didn't end up helping Beato and Battler in some way? Even once?

[Renall]

At this point, I'm not sure what she wants at all. So I really don't know.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

You know... Has Lambda ever actually done anything that didn't end up helping Beato and Battler in some way? Even once?

...I wonder.

What if Lambda is actually out to depower Bern, rather than just trap her in a stalemate or win? Certainity does not win against miracles because these powers are exactly opposed, and it becomes an endurance contest. But if Lambda can get Bern to engross herself in somebody else's story and bet on something which is not simply unlikely, but explicitly logically impossible, she can trap her in a paradox.

After all, no miracle will determine the behaviour of a barber who shaves and doesn't shave himself.

EDIT: In fact, treat this paradox as a loop, and you get precisely what eternal magic would probably be able to accomplish.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by Renall

I sort of think she's come to realize this game will end. If it must end, she wants to make sure Bern will be the loser. That's about the only reason I could ever see her helping Battler so much. She does a whole lot more than just establish equilibrium when it suits her, and the things she does to "help" Bern and Erika don't necessarily always look so helpful in the end.

In other words, I think she's realized a stalemate might not be possible, and if it's not, Bern can't as a secondary goal be allowed the satisfaction of the game ending her way.

Erika seems blissfully ignorant of most of this, and thinks her role is the one she was told it was. It clearly isn't; she's there to be used, nothing more.

Even if this is the case, so why she let Kinzo escape? Becouse that will actually help Bernkastel with her goal (framing Natsuhi).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

You know... Has Lambda ever actually done anything that didn't end up helping Beato and Battler in some way? Even once?

Nice point... however she did try to "bribe" Ange. And if Ange accepted it could have been very bad for Battler.

Then in EP5 I don't know if it can be said that she has done something against Battler, but with all that stuff she allowed Bern to do, indirectly she did. It's not like Lambda couldn't limit Erika's power if she wanted.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Nice point... however she did try to "bribe" Ange. And if Ange accepted it could have been very bad for Battler.

Would it really have been, though? If I remember correctly, Lambda didn't ask Ange to lie to Battler or mislead him, just to back off if he was doing too well. That could be read as: "You can give him hints, but not too many -- he needs to solve it for himself."

I also think that, given that Ange was ostensibly Bern's piece, the fact that Lambda was even in a position to bribe her at all is quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Then in EP5 I don't know if it can be said that she has done something against Battler, but with all that stuff she allowed Bern to do, indirectly she did. It's not like Lambda couldn't limit Erika's power if she wanted.

Based on her reactions at the end, I always thought she'd expected him to smash Bern's theory much earlier in the proceedings. With Meta-Beatrice out of the picture, she'd basically taken over the position of trolling Battler to get him motivated.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

Even if this is the case, so why she let Kinzo escape? Becouse that will actually help Bernkastel with her goal (framing Natsuhi).

Bernkastel is too smart to fall for someone who is actively opposing her at every turn. I suppose the idea is that she believes Lambda to be her enemy, but considers her incompetent and easily fooled (see the ep4 ????). The only way Lambda can possibly put one over on Bern would be to appear to be doing what she's always claimed she's doing, while doing something else incredibly subtly.

The real question is, how would Battler notice this to coordinate with her? I can't imagine they can chat without Bern noticing.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

The real question is, how would Battler notice this to coordinate with her? I can't imagine they can chat without Bern noticing.

Battler and Bern had a long conversation about Beato and Lambda in that scene just after they show Natsuhi and Krauss's honeymoon. Bern's conclusion from what all she told him is that Lambda's goal is "to make Battler and Beato into lifeless dolls that she can play with for all eternity". And since a big chunk of that conversation was to lead up to the red that says You will never be released as long as this game remains unresolved. I'm not sure what she's lying about in particular in that scene, but for him to go against Bern she has to be telling him a really, really, big lie, and I'm not sure what that lie is.

She did say she could say in red that "Beato will never laugh again though". So I'm certain she thinks it's impossible for her to return to normal.

[June 1983]

I'm in the middle of replaying Ep 5 and I've just gotten to the point where Knox's Decalogue is first introduced. Lambda says,

...because of Knox's seventh: "It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit." There was an exception clause in the original, but for this game "the detective isn't the culprit" has been stated in red.

What is this exception clause she's talking about? I went looking for it online but I haven't seen anything like that.

[Renall]

I believe the exception Knox and Dine recognized is that a person posing as a detective can be a criminal, but the legitimate "detective" of the story cannot.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by June 1983

What is this exception clause she's talking about? I went looking for it online but I haven't seen anything like that.

I've never seen any exception clause like that, either.

[June 1983]

Ah, okay! That makes sense.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Renall

I believe the exception Knox and Dine recognized is that a person posing as a detective can be a criminal, but the legitimate "detective" of the story cannot.

That's correct. Here's the article for reference: http://gadetection.pbworks.com/Ronal...ective-Fiction

[Disz]

Um..this is my first post,and I've been reading these for along time.I'd just like to say something.

What if Shannon has a split personality?Yah I know it's probably been suggested before,but I do not mean shes Kannon.I mean that when

Spoiler for Spoiler Scene:

Sayo realized Battler broke the promise,it triggered a split personality.The only reference for a character she would have at the moment would be the most powerful,Beatrice in the mansion.

We know Kannon hates ''Beatrice'',but maybe he just hates the Sayo that is still in love with Battler,that ''retires'' old servants.He probably knows about Sayo injuring other servants,but not selling her out,due to their connection.And anytime Kannon notices ''Beatrice'',he gets mad and tries to tell Shannon to return to her senses.The other servants may be in it too.

That MIIIGHT explain how Nanjo MIGHT concider being in the kill with them.Maybe Kannon says something like ''Dude...she has a condition ...yada yada help us etc.''

I also hear that when you have this condition,there's some memories which you will not recall.So maybe she's not completely aware she does this.I only added this because I refuse to believe she has a chaotic love problem.Chaotic as in,insanely dangerous.

You're probably going to say (My favorite knox rule)
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

But oh well. =/ I tried.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Disz

Um..this is my first post,and I've been reading these for along time.I'd just like to say something.

What if Shannon has a split personality?Yah I know it's probably been suggested before,but I do not mean shes Kannon.I mean that when

Spoiler for Spoiler Scene:

Sayo realized Battler broke the promise,it triggered a split personality.The only reference for a character she would have at the moment would be the most powerful,Beatrice in the mansion.

We know Kannon hates ''Beatrice'',but maybe he just hates the Sayo that is still in love with Battler,that ''retires'' old servants.He probably knows about Sayo injuring other servants,but not selling her out,due to their connection.And anytime Kannon notices ''Beatrice'',he gets mad and tries to tell Shannon to return to her senses.The other servants may be in it too.

That MIIIGHT explain how Nanjo MIGHT concider being in the kill with them.Maybe Kannon says something like ''Dude...she has a condition ...yada yada help us etc.''

I also hear that when you have this condition,there's some memories which you will not recall.So maybe she's not completely aware she does this.I only added this because I refuse to believe she has a chaotic love problem.Chaotic as in,insanely dangerous.

You're probably going to say (My favorite knox rule)
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

But oh well. =/ I tried.

I think that would violate Knox's fourth.

[Disz]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

I think that would violate Knox's fourth.

It is not a drug or a scientific device,let alone hard to understand.

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by Disz

It is not a drug or a scientific device,let alone hard to understand.

Maybe after George's proposal, it triggered a memory? Well it was 6-years ago.

By the way, did George even get a chance to propose to Shannon in EP5? Clearly this may not be a fixed factor in the game! Could mean something

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Ronove

By the way, did George even get a chance to propose to Shannon in EP5? Clearly this may not be a fixed factor in the game! Could mean something

He didn't in EP4 either. Said so himself. And Beatrice doesn't deliver a letter to Maria in that EP. Instead 'Kinzo' gives her an umbrella and no letter ever appears until the headship test.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Ronove

By the way, did George even get a chance to propose to Shannon in EP5? Clearly this may not be a fixed factor in the game! Could mean something

George and Shannon's relationship is indeed suspicious. See how it develops over each episode? How can it do that unless it's not part of the 'constants' of the gameboard? Basically, I think Shannon gaining confidence is 'character development' for Shannon, who seems to have access to Meta World knowledge at times.

... is all I can say while in this episode thread. 8)

Originally Posted by Judoh

He didn't in EP4 either. Said so himself. And Beatrice doesn't deliver a letter to Maria in that EP. Instead 'Kinzo' gives her an umbrella and no letter ever appears until the headship test.

For example in EP4, Shannon states that 'perhaps they should fight one more time.' or how she and Kanon tend to die early..

Also, notice how EP4, the plans the Beatrice faction (mostly the servants) have had for the letter and their first twilight shenanigans have basically been overridden by a 'Kinzo.' And then how this exactly mirrors the meta-world where Beatrice lets 'Kinzo' take over for him a bit there..

[Disz]

I'm sort of confused.

In EP 4,''Beatrice'' has ''burned ''Kinzo'''' after getting angry at Battler.In the game,does the game show Kinzo as ''Missing'',during this point?Because if we have the viewpoint of

Spoiler for theory founded in EP5:

Kinzo is dead to begin with

,then I believe the body must have been hidden in the mansion,and ''Beatrice'' retrieves the body and burns it at that time.Please,correct me if I'm wrong.