Penguin Drum - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[ThereminVox]

I wouldn't put too much stock in what Ringo was saying under the influence of whatever Yuri gave her. It sounded more like she was repeating Yuri's assurances that she was about to become Momoka. In light of Shouma's recent rejection of her, and given her highly suggestive state, it's not hard to imagine that she might have a relapse of intention.

We're getting even more swan imagery associated with Yuri. The Tragedy of M also climaxes with "M" flying away with her androgynous beloved on the back of a giant swan.

I didn't realize until this episode that the pattern on Momoka's shirt (apparently she only owns one) is an inverted apple. I thought it was a heart at first.

I made the connection between Momoka's rabbit and Sanatoshi's two shape-shifting (maybe) assistants, but it didn't occur to me until I read this thread that Sanatoshi himself might be the rabbit, or somehow related to it. I suppose he does call Momoka his fated one when she ends up at the library, and he does have those pinkish eyes.

I admit, I almost gasped when Momoka changed fate, and the was engulfed in the fireball. It feels like we've been waiting forever for something to hint back at Ringo's immolation in the first OP. Everyone wants that diary, but it's now confirmed that obtaining a transfer on the sky-metro of fate is a costly business.

Kanba is much too quick to turn to Sanatoshi for help. I know he's desperate, but Himari's last specialist warned him that doctors aren't gods. The fact that Sanatoshi is acting like one should be hint #1 that he is no doctor.

[SoFarGone]

So has it been confirmed that Project M for Yuri and Ringo is Momoka while Masako's version is Mario?

[Malkuth]

I am not saying that Ringo planned or intended to make out with Yuri, but even before being drugged she was playing along. And guys drugs do not magically reverse your motivation or implant suggestions; depending on the kind, they make you more emotional, accepting, compliant, hyperactive, edgy, etc. From the immediate effect, it seemed to be a hypnotic, which except from making you sleep, does not have any significant psychotropic after-effects (compared to other drugs).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I am not saying that Ringo planned or intended to make out with Yuri, but even before being drugged she was playing along.

Playing along for a friendly night with a cool one-san, yes, but not for sex.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

And guys drugs do not magically reverse your motivation or implant suggestions; depending on the kind, they make you more emotional, accepting, compliant, hyperactive, edgy, etc. From the immediate effect, it seemed to be a hypnotic, which except from making you sleep, does not have any significant psychotropic after-effects (compared to other drugs).

Ringo made a drug that turned Tabuki into a frog. Do you really believe real-life logic applies here??

Besides, it was Yuri who called Shouma in the first place (since Ringo was tied down) so it's quite likely she told Ringo what to say on the phone too, and Ringo in her drugged state just played along.

[wandering-dreamer]

A few random thoughts of my own (it's all pretty much speculation). Number 1 and Esmelda are together in the new opening because both Kanba and Natsume are trying to defy fate and break away from it but yet that's not what the Penguindrum does. The Penguindrum changes fates but there still is fate in the end, so why does Natsume (assuming she knows how it works) want it? It could be that she and Kanba both just want to change the fate of their siblings to a better one, not necessarily break out of fate, or I wonder if Sanetoshi and PoC are using these two to try and get the diary for their own purposes.

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

I didn't realize until this episode that the pattern on Momoka's shirt (apparently she only owns one) is an inverted apple. I thought it was a heart at first.

I think it's a peach like her name, there's a similar looking peach on the front of Ringo's apartment complex.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I am not saying that Ringo planned or intended to make out with Yuri, but even before being drugged she was playing along. And guys drugs do not magically reverse your motivation or implant suggestions; depending on the kind, they make you more emotional, accepting, compliant, hyperactive, edgy, etc. From the immediate effect, it seemed to be a hypnotic, which except from making you sleep, does not have any significant psychotropic after-effects (compared to other drugs).

A lot of what you say here is correct. Which is why I think there is a real part of Ringo that likes the idea of being seduced by Yuri.

Still, I'm not comfortable with drugging someone into going along with sex.

Would I call it rape? I think I'd leave that up to Ringo to decide the morning after. If Ringo feels like she was raped, and she never consented to sex in a clear state of mind, then that is what counts, imo.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Playing along for a friendly night with a cool one-san, yes, but not for sex.

Ringo made a drug that turned Tabuki into a frog. Do you really believe real-life logic applies here??

Besides, it was Yuri who called Shouma in the first place (since Ringo was tied down) so it's quite likely she told Ringo what to say on the phone too, and Ringo in her drugged state just played along.

I knows next episode will clear this up anyway. But i don't think the drug or Yuri has much to do with how Ringo acted on the phone.

She probably more or less resisted a bit during the bondage session, but the hotel is hardly vacant, and she can scream for help if she really want to. Maybe the tiredness from all of those activities (+ drug), the rejection from Shouma, the gentleness of Yuri, and the adventuring mode during the little vacation... just make her vulnerable to the idea of getting off reality for some pains/pleasures. If anything goes wrong, she can blame Shouma for all as her little revenge. Because she clearly did blame Shouma on how she gonna be messed up when he didn't pick up the phone. But then started to taunt on him how she gonna off to a beautiful adult world without the need for him when they are both on the phone.

Complicated girl. i have to say

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I knows next episode will clear this up anyway. But i don't think the drug or Yuri has much to do with how Ringo acted on the phone.

Well, I just can't help thinking there's no reason for Yuri to call Shouma in the first place if him being there wasn't part of her plan. But it was Yuri who called him, not Ringo.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, I just can't help thinking there's no reason for Yuri to call Shouma in the first place if him being there wasn't part of her plan. But it was Yuri who called him, not Ringo.

What if Ringo offered to call him? Like:

"Before we do this, can you get my phone so i can let that jerk know that i don't want to associate with him anymore."

And when she got to the phone,she just decided to blame and taunt him off as a little revenge. Let him worried a bit, confused a bit, feel guilty a bit over what gonna happens to her. After all he deserve it, right? That explains her sleeping smile, i guess

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Now that I think about it Ringo couldn't possible answer Shouma's call, or make the first one, since she was bondaged. Meaning that Yuri likely called the number, then whispered in Ringo's ear to have her say whatever she wanted. And then when shoma called back it was the same thing again. Why she wanted to create a situation for Shouma to be there, who knows. It's all fate anyway, and maybe it was written in the diary after all.

Maybe but I don't understand why "attempted rape" was used at all or why Yuri said something like I am going to mess you up really badly. That was just disturbing.

Just Ringo/Yuri to get Shouma's attention is fine by me but the rape aspect was too much.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

She probably more or less resisted a bit during the bondage session, but the hotel is hardly vacant, and she can scream for help if she really want to.

Except we don't know exactly how the drug affected Ringo. She didn't seem to be in her right mind during those scenes.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Except we don't know exactly how the drug affected Ringo. She didn't seem to be in her right mind during those scenes.

Not on a right mind is not really a good excuse through, as alcohol can put one in a similar state. Well, i means you can argue that's why Japan does not allow minor to drink alcohol before reaching 20.

Considering what happened so far, Ringo is not so much different with being drunk. So i guess it will still make sense if in the NA version, Yuri didn't spike Ringo drink, but get her get really drunk instead. Same effect.

[Sides]

IIRC, GHB was a big deal a couple of years back, used as a date rape drug. The bounding was probably used to stop her moving, which is apparently a side effect of it, besides random babbling. So it was kind of realistic although most things in this series is more on the fictional side.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

What if Ringo offered to call him? Like:

"Before we do this, can you get my phone so i can let that jerk know that i don't want to associate with him anymore."

Sorry, I don't see it. I don't think Ringo had a state of mind clear enough to think all that. Plus when Shouma got there Yuri was all "just as planned" too. I don't think she told Ringo exactly what to say, but I do think making the call was her idea and she prompted Ringo on what to say to some extent.

[faburosumakusu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Sorry, I don't see it. I don't think Ringo had a state of mind clear enough to think all that. Plus when Shouma got there Yuri was all "just as planned" too. I don't think she told Ringo exactly what to say, but I do think making the call was her idea and she prompted Ringo on what to say to some extent.

I agree.
Plus, I don't see why Ringo would want to have sex with Yuri when she couldn't even do it with Tabuki and that had been what she had wanted all along but because of what Shoma said, she couldn't do it.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Not on a right mind is not really a good excuse through, as alcohol can put one in a similar state. Well, i means you can argue that's why Japan does not allow minor to drink alcohol before reaching 20.

Considering what happened so far, Ringo is not so much different with being drunk. So i guess it will still make sense if in the NA version, Yuri didn't spike Ringo drink, but get her get really drunk instead. Same effect.

Yes and it would still be considered date rape and no one would say Ringo was in her right mind & willing. From a date rape website:

• It's harder to think clearly.
• It's harder to set limits and make good choices.
• It's harder to tell when a situation could be dangerous.
• It's harder to say "no" to sexual advances.
• It's harder to fight back if a sexual assault occurs.
• It's possible to blackout and to have memory loss.

So I think saying Ringo knew what she was doing or saying when she was talking to Shouma is taking it too far. I also more support the theory that it was Yuri who got Ringo to call Shouma. She might not have told her exactly what to say but she might have put suggestions in Ringo's head.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Sides

The bounding was probably used to stop her moving

It's done to heighten sexual pleasure for those into bondage. Those ropes/knots were straight out of typical bondage fantasies. I assume, "stopping her moving" in the context you used it was more about keeping her from escaping. I totally disagree. I don't think Ringo had any intention of escaping at that point.

I think Ringo was, at that point, a willing partner. Now, I know, the semantics of "willing" could probably drive this thread for many pages to come, but I saw the drug as an inhibition remover, so you got to see a side to Ringo you wouldn't normally see. Like alcohol induced flights of fancy, I'm sure Ringo would have been mortified when she came off her drug-induced euphoria, but at that particular moment, she seemed like she really wanted it. Now, this is still technically rape, since she was drugged (or almost rape, since I don't believe anything was actually... consummated here), but that's beside the point when it comes to what the rope was for.

[ele-ene-ene]

Originally Posted by faburosumakusu

I actually agree with you, zeando! Why show us a character's design but not his face instead of just using the normal "stick figure" design?

Spoiler for misteriuos classmate:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Edit : Developing a bit on the second diary theory. Ringo, when she was following Momoka's diary, kept bumping into Tabuki and Yuri. But Yuri only obtained the diary after that, so she couldn't possibly be the one who knew what was in Momoka's diary. Hence the idea that Tabuki also has a diary, or a copy of Momoka's one. Would explain how he got the scars, by using it's own diary...

Spoiler for the second diary:

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Considering what happened so far, Ringo is not so much different with being drunk.

Yeah, that's what it makes me think of too.

Bring drunk lowers a person's inhibitions considerably, kind of letting the "id" take over entirely, to put it in Freudian terms. You can't truly consent to anything in such a state, in my view, but what you do/say in such a state is often the most unvarnished representation of what you really want and feel.


It is possible, though, that Yuri's plan all along was to help Ringo forward her relationship with Sho. So she set up a situation that would naturally bring out Sho's protective and romantic feelings for Ringo, forcing him to kind of own up to them as it were.

If this is the case, then Yuri perhaps never really intended to rape Ringo, but to simply make it seem like the two were having sex, in order to arouse Sho's passions. Maybe in the process of enacting her plan, she couldn't help but get caught up in how much Ringo was like Momoka, and hence allowed herself to steal a kiss from Ringo and let her imaginations run wild a bit.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by creb

I think Ringo was, at that point, a willing partner. Now, I know, the semantics of "willing" could probably drive this thread for many pages to come, but I saw the drug as an inhibition remover, so you got to see a side to Ringo you wouldn't normally see. Like alcohol induced flights of fancy, I'm sure Ringo would have been mortified when she came off her drug-induced euphoria, but at that particular moment, she seemed like she really wanted it. Now, this is still technically rape, since she was drugged (or almost rape, since I don't believe anything was actually... consummated here), but that's beside the point when it comes to what the rope was for.

I understand your point, and I agree. I just wouldn't use the world "willing" to describe it, since I think you need to be in a right state of mind to be truly willing. Just my two cents on the semantic issue.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Sorry, I don't see it. I don't think Ringo had a state of mind clear enough to think all that. Plus when Shouma got there Yuri was all "just as planned" too. I don't think she told Ringo exactly what to say, but I do think making the call was her idea and she prompted Ringo on what to say to some extent.

The problem is, it's out of character for Yuri to think of lines like that, while it is not for Ringo. If Yuri suggest Ringo on what to say, then I expects the conversation will be more direct, something similar to what she said when Shouma first awake,or when met up Ringo after the frog incident (something like 'you should take the chance with me when you have it').

Well i means she can suggest Ringo to call Shouma ('you want to say something to SHouma before spending the night with me?') but the idea behind the conversation will most likely be Ringo's