(L) Simoun

[anselfir]

some of these metaphysical/plot questions are better left unanswered. a certain degree of mystery is necessary to create surrealist distance and highlight the important things over the mundane.

[duncan]

Originally Posted by anselfir

some of these metaphysical/plot questions are better left unanswered. a certain degree of mystery is necessary to create surrealist distance and highlight the important things over the mundane.

I'll agree that some are.

Spoiler:

For instance I have no problem with the last glimpse we catch of Aeru and Neviriru (I quite liked it, actually). They have transcended human understanding, so it would be pointless to try to explain what they've become. I was very happy with the way they wrapped that up, and I didn't need much more explanation than "They have become eternal maidens, and are outside time." I don't think they are actually Tempus/Spatium, but I think that they're truly in all places at all times, in some sense. I don't need to ask whether or not they still have a corporeal existence, because I assume I would not be able to understand the answer anyway. Probably something like the way light is a wave and a particle at the same time...

But that excuse is not good enough to cover all the riddles Simoun poses, IMHO. I really do think that the only way to explain Chor Dextra is to assume that the writers got confused, and that's a flaw if you ask me. I think the same thing about the Dominashia thing- Dominura is clearly Onashia, but there are reasons to think that she can't be Onashia, and that seems like the result of a conflict between the writers. I'd rather not have to invoke the creators of a series to understand it, but Simoun does seem to require that.

You can't handwave enormous confusion about timelines away with the idea that it is all a matter of unexplainable metaphysics. Well, I guess you _can_, and Simoun proves that you can do so and still make a really engaging anime series. But I'm not willing to buy it, completely.

I guess I'd like to compare Simoun with Gene Wolfe's New Sun series. That's a series of books that on first reading makes you ask: "what?" They start off looking like a sort of simple, if floridly written, shounen fantasy (with a bit of refuge in audacity- the main character starts as an apprentice in the torturer's guild). By the end of the series you understand that there was another story beneath the one you were told, and that you failed to follow it. I actually read that series about 5 times back to back before I completely understood what had happened (this was before there was an internet to find spoilers on.) Then Wolfe published a fifth book that confirmed most of my suspicions.

The problem with Simoun is that it promises to be that sort of work, if a lot simpler (it is unfair to compare _any_ anime with Wolfe's books, though I'd love to see "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" animated), and it fails to deliver on that promise. I don't demand simple answers, but I want a certain degree of consistency, and Simoun failed to deliver in that respect.

That doesn't keep me from loving the series. What it did well, it did very well. I'm a big fan of Simoun- I'd put it (3rd) in the top 3 series I've seen, and I certainly think it was the best series of 2006. I actually thought it was better than Haibane Renmei, for instance, which makes me a heretic . But I think it was flawed in some respects, and my love for it can't keep me from noticing the flaws.

[anselfir]

well, in simoun time itself is a theme, perhaps to make a statement about religion/belief from a sociohistorical perspective. but really, the characters' situations are all clearly presented, and that's enough for a character portrait show. when the show is over, what you remember are the characters, and that's done well enough

[gaguri]

There are many positive things to say about Simoun (as well as few criticisms) but the thing I got most out of it was its depiction of lesbian relationship. The most beautiful and sacred of all relationship to me felt like the one between two females and it's all due to its androgynous nature. Who is in control, who is aggressive and who is hesistant, who desires to embrace and who desires to be embraced, who is seme and who is uke...these positions within a relationship changes over time, where that fine line between a "man" and "woman" becomes blurred to the point where it no longer matters, for such thing is ambiguous and arguably irrelevant between two females who genuinely feel for each other. It's something I've never, ever had a pleasure of experiencing in anime. Such relationship is like a beautiful tango, of both pulling and being pulled, and within that tension lies the beauty that you can't capture in words. The final scene is beautiful in that it so perfectly captures that notion without words, just through a tango between Nevril and Aeru. Soundtrack for Simoun is also one of the best.

I wouldn't say Simoun is a masterpiece, or even a brilliant work for that matter, but it certainly is unique in its take on a theme that's been so cheapened and trivialised by the industry.

[duncan]

Yep, I liked the relationships as well, and I'm not particularly a fan of yuri. Like I said, I thought that what Simoun did well it did very well. It has some flaws, but they didn't keep me from really enjoying the series. It probably wouldn't be my first recommendation for someone who wasn't already kind of into anime, just because it is kind of odd, but.. well it's the kind of thing that people who like that kind of thing will like a lot . I certainly liked it, and I have recommended it to some people.

[Matrim]

You can't handwave enormous confusion about timelines away with the idea that it is all a matter of unexplainable metaphysics. Well, I guess you _can_, and Simoun proves that you can do so and still make a really engaging anime series. But I'm not willing to buy it, completely.

I have to agree. The issue with Chor Dextra especially has left me with the impression that the concept was changed during the course of the series and in attempting to make this chor the focal point of so many mysteries they screwed up. I think many pages back in this thread someone did quote an interview with the director (or someone prominent in the crew at least) that they had indeed changed things in the spur of the moment due to time and money constraints. Or maybe that's just my bad memory, this thread is damned huge, so I can't be bothered to find this info.

[duncan]

Originally Posted by Matrim

I have to agree. The issue with Chor Dextra especially has left me with the impression that the concept was changed during the course of the series and in attempting to make this chor the focal point of so many mysteries they screwed up. I think many pages back in this thread someone did quote an interview with the director (or someone prominent in the crew at least) that they had indeed changed things in the spur of the moment due to time and money constraints. Or maybe that's just my bad memory, this thread is damned huge, so I can't be bothered to find this info.

Yep- that's the conclusion I came to, and it's the Chor Dextra stuff, along with the Dominura stuff that bothered me the most. They clearly switched horses in mid-stream. I don't know about the interview you're talking about, but I remember someone mentioning something about the director insisting that the two pretty guys we see in the end aren't actually Anubituf and Guragief. I didn't hear it in context, so I don't know if he was joking, but if he was serious it's clear that he wasn't in complete control by the end. I think maybe there was dissension in the ranks and so they just wound up throwing up their hands and not bothering to try to resolve the contradictions.

One thing I think is interesting is the difference in budget between Japanese animation and US series. The Japanese produce most anime on a much smaller budget than US shows get, and it seems like they are on tighter deadlines too. That might explain why a lot of anime starts off well and then crashes and burns. Luckily Simoun didn't crash and burn. The ending was quite nice in a lot of ways, and I agree with gaguri that the last scene was quite nice. But I was left feeling a bit let down as well- just too many gnawing and unresolvable questions.

[Bloodseeker]

Why do I do this to myself?

I know that the melodrama and dumb story telling is going to continue (I've clicked through the future episodes a little and at the very least I know that the characters continue to get pissed over the wrong things), and I know that its going to make me rage, and I know that I'm not going to be able to look at the main characters again the same way after watching the final episode, since the mass majority of them turn into men.

Yet I feel like continuing since I hear that it gets somewhat better.

*watches episode 14*

-Waporiff only turned down Floe because he was scared of her status as a priestess? Waporiff, you pussy. You're going to do the same thing to Morinas now too. Then you'll just need to find a way to almost shack up with and then turn down Aeru and you'll have turned down all three of the best characters in the show. He should do the same with Yun just for the sake of turning down all of the best looking as well.

-Thank you, Yun. Paraietta is indeed a shitty leader that favors her friend's interests of over the group's and completely disregards the group's needs in the process. Now she just needs to tell her off for being a shitty friend. Sheltering Neviril only prolongs her problems.

I was irritated to see Paraietta as high as third place in that popularity poll, but I'm glad that her fandom doesn't seem as strong amongst the western Simoun fanbase.

-You could have made your advances somewhere a bit less risky than in the room where all of the other priestesses are sleeping.

-...Or maybe Waporiff's and Morinas's relationship will come to a mutual end.

[Matrim]

I think you are in for quite a few surprises if you persevere with Simoun.

Waporiff only turned down Floe because he was scared of her status as a priestess? Waporiff, you pussy.

Yes, he sure is a pussy for not wanting to get involved with a priestess. Never mind that he is living under a theocracy, the priestesses arguably do what can easily be classified as magic pretty much every day and it can be inferred that adults messing around with adolescents who have not gone through the Spring ceremony of a gender choice is something of a tabboo, let alone having an affair with a Sybilla. I wonder if you would call a male character in a medieval european setting a pussy too, just because he refuses to screw a nun. Not to mention Floe looks and behaves like a ten-year old and that you have a lot to see about Morinas and Wapourif's relationship.

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by Matrim

I think you are in for quite a few surprises if you persevere with Simoun.



Yes, he sure is a pussy for not wanting to get involved with a priestess. Never mind that he is living under a theocracy, the priestesses arguably do what can easily be classified as magic pretty much every day and it can be inferred that adults messing around with adolescents who have not gone through the Spring ceremony of a gender choice is something of a tabboo, let alone having an affair with a Sybilla. I wonder if you would call a male character in a medieval european setting a pussy too, just because he refuses to screw a nun. Not to mention Floe looks and behaves like a ten-year old and that you have a lot to see about Morinas and Wapourif's relationship.

Yeah, well... shit, I can't attack Aeru because Aeru's awesome and I'm too lazy to see who your other favorites are.

But stop bashing Floe. Floe is cute. And hot.

Also, sibyllea aren't really the same as nuns. As far as I can tell, all but a few of them move on from their occupation into completely different fields early in life. Its not a permanent lifestyle. (where as a nun is going to be a nun for a long, long time) Most of them don't really have the nun mentality or demeanor, either. Even their uniforms tend to be revealing, and they're certainly interested in each other. Its more "temporary noble status" bullshit.

And obviously they can get fairly close without the people that could raise hell about it taking enough notice to actually do so. Floe and Morinas would visit the spring eventually, and they'd be completely free at that point. There's no possible downsides to such a relationship as long as they don't get caught, either.

The only thing stopping him is some stupid taboo that's not going to apply forever. Passing an awesome girl that you want up over something like makes you a pussy.

[Matrim]

Also, sibyllea aren't really the same as nuns. As far as I can tell, all but a few of them move on from their occupation into completely different fields early in life. Its not a permanent lifestyle. (where as a nun is going to be a nun for a long, long time) Most of them don't really have the nun mentality or demeanor, either. Even their uniforms tend to be revealing, and they're certainly interested in each other. Its more "temporary noble status" bullshit.

Most of them were nobles to begin with, if we are to trust Mamiina's story, which probably adds to their untouchable status. And just because it's a temporary status, doesn't make it any less sacred.

[duncan]

I actually think that the Wapourif/Morinas thing is a fairly strong part of Simoun, despite the fact that I wasn't crazy about either character. It ties into some other thematic elements quite nicely.

I don't think it's ever really implied that Wapourif would suffer serious consequences from the state if he had something to do with one of the sibyllae (and the fact that Floe makes him claim to have been her lover tends to argue against that), but I don't think that's the point. The title of ep 14 could be translated into English as "That Which Must Not Be Defiled", or "That Which Must Not Be Profaned", and it has a dual meaning here, in line with a theme that Simoun rather dextrously (pun only half-intended) weaves into a couple storylines.

Are the Simouns the chariots of the gods, or are they just machines? Are the sibyllae young girls, or are they sacred beings, or are they killers? In this sense the questions about defiling them or profaning them run through the whole series, and a lot of Simoun only makes sense once you see it in that light, IMHO. Wapourif's confusion over the issue is just the piccolos picking that theme up. By itself it wouldn't make much sense, but as a restatement in a different voice of a theme that is present through the whole series, I think it works quite well, though of course YMMV.

Also, I don't want to spoil, but Morinas makes this question fairly explicit soon after this episode.

I will say that if you're not liking Simoun by ep 14 you are probably not going to like it much better if you watch the whole thing. I'd actually say that if you weren't digging it by ep 8 (the strongest episode, IMHO), it might not be for you.

[Generic Asian Guy]

Definitely a unique piece of anime with a plot that has "depth" to it.

I love the songs, especially Aaeru's music box theme and Youen Naru Kizuna no Hibiki (the accordion melody) =] ("Oozora no Auriga" gives me goosebumps)

It's rare to hear songs with an accordion in them, so that's what make Simoun unique to me.

[WanderingKnight]

It's rare to hear songs with an accordion in them, so that's what make Simoun unique to me.

It's actually a bandoneón, an instrument similar to an accordion in sound and looks, but very different when it comes to playing it. It's typically used in tango.

[Generic Asian Guy]

Thanks for the information =D Very interesting!

[Kaoru Chujo]

I'm still saying Simoun is a masterpiece. At least it is my favorite anime of all time. But even masterpieces can have flaws, or at least inconsistencies. In fact, a story that is perfect can be mechanical and emotionally dead.

The mysteries of past and future, even if insoluble -- or perhaps especially if insoluble -- give this show a mystical resonance that would otherwise be hard to achieve. Pinning them down might be like chloroforming a butterfly and pinning it to a board.

[Iromaru]

I finished watching Simoun yesterday and I must say it's definitely one of the best shows ever made.

From the countless animes I have watched only Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop and Elfen Lied reached similar level. Seriousely many years have passed since I cried watching a movie or series yet Simoun made me cry like a kid so many times... Final two episodes are pure art and imo one of the two best anime endings ever (second being Cowboy Bebop).

I really don't know how will I get over this series, it'll most likely haunt me every day for many weeks forcing endless re-watching just like Elfen Lied did.

It really pains me that Simoun wasn't a comercial success and we'll most likely never see a manga or anime sequel, but true art is often underrated at first. Hopefully Simoun will gain fans in time, especially since most reviews from critics are very positive.

[hazelnut]

So i was looking for a thread on a forum and it seems i'm not disappointed here. I probably won't be reading all 142 pages, so if anything i say about has been touched upon my aplogies.

Anyway, i finished watching this series this evening and i've felt strongly enough about it to find to a place to discuss it. Like people have already said there's story strands that could have been tied up better, but overall i really liked this show. It had some striking things to say about themes like time and change and how we all have to deal with it, and there's a subtle thread of emotions that hangs through all the episodes that's bound to leave me in a melancholy funk for the next couple of days at least. Which in the end is the best thing any anime (or any story for that matter) can offer to its public in my book.

About the ending though, part of me would have liked to see some more closure on where/when/as what exactly Aeru and Neviril, and that Amuria lady too ended up. As it is, it's a wonderful open and subtle ending, sure to linger in the mind, but they have all this build-up in their relationship which makes it really hard to just let them go in the distance like that right? But then again, letting go and moving on with your life's one of the key themes of the show, so in that respect they did pull it off very gracefully. All in all it was a show where i was sorry to see the last credits rolling across the screen, and i haven't been able to say from the other anime (not that much really) i've seen.

[WanderingKnight]

But then again, letting go and moving on with your life's one of the key themes of the show, so in that respect they did pull it off very gracefully.

The show dealt with that, yes, but in the case of Neviril and Aaeru, the idea (or at least what I understood from it) is that they didn't let go (of their childhood, of their immaturity), and that they were the only characters that managed to do it.

It was probably a first, at least for me, in anime in general. The boy-becomes-adult theme is pretty common, and this was the first time the typical story was given a 180 degrees twist.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Simoun was broadcast from April to August of 2006. I hung on every episode and was here to help create the 142 pages of passionate discussion. You can imagine how great it makes me feel to see people like Iromaru and hazelnut just coming upon the show now and enjoying it as much as I did.

Now that I think of it, there is something of Peter Pan about the show, as Wandering Knight suggests. Aaeru in particular is like the little girl who refuses to grow up. In a way, I think she is Neviril's life-line, giving the princess a way to maintain her purity despite the years of sin. Aaeru remains a child, Neviril returns to childhood.

There were many emotional high points in the show: the girl (I forget her name) crying in ep2 after her gender is chosen; Neviril choosing Aaeru; the death of Mamiina; Mamiina among the flowers; Yun in the place of Onashia. In part because it was somewhat indeterminate, the ending was not an emotional high. But I appreciated that. I think drama works better when it doesn't end on a climax, but has a period to settle down from the height of catharsis.