AnimeSuki Forums

Rahan · 2012-08-01, 03:23

I am not too fond of the "extra scenes".

It may really ruin the pace of the movie. There is a reason Tolkien didn't develop them in the Hobbit in the first place.

ChainLegacy · 2012-08-01, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahan

I am not too fond of the "extra scenes".

It may really ruin the pace of the movie. There is a reason Tolkien didn't develop them in the Hobbit in the first place.

I'm not so sure about that one. Tolkien always seems like he could have tweaked something here, elaborated on something there, etc. His huge amount of 'unfinished materials' can attest to that. On the other hand, just because he had lots of cool ideas, doesn't mean Jackson and crew will be able to properly integrate these scenes as Tolkien hypothetically might-have. I will say, I was quite fond of the LotR movies, so I will remain confident!

Ithekro · 2012-08-01, 12:39

The Hobbit was presented as a children's novel. But with everything Tolkien had in mind put back in? Then it becomes a whole lot like the Lord of the Rings...just with more singing.

The Silmarillion, on the other hand...is so many stories. It is basically The Bible for Tolkien's world. I don't know if it could be made into a movie or even three movies. Also if done "to scale" with the other productions...the battles would be beyond epic. When the enemy had an Army of Dragons and Balrogs verses the High Elves in top form and the hieght of their power? I don't know if I can even imagine that on a big screen.

Plus there would be no main characters that continue for the entire set of films. The stories are on a biblical level.

Kirarakim · 2012-08-07, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

Indeed! Add in all the extra source material, it could be quite lengthy.

I wonder how Smaug will be portrayed. I'm hoping he'll be very impressive.

Endless "Barrel rider" Soul

Smaug will be voiced by Bemedict Cumberbatch so at least his voice will be awesome.

Ithekro · 2012-09-20, 14:50

While I've not found a production blog number 9...there is this trailer.....

YouTube

https://youtu.be/hK-Ec-pJYxs

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

willx · 2012-09-20, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The Silmarillion, on the other hand...is so many stories. It is basically The Bible for Tolkien's world. I don't know if it could be made into a movie or even three movies. Also if done "to scale" with the other productions...the battles would be beyond epic. When the enemy had an Army of Dragons and Balrogs verses the High Elves in top form and the hieght of their power? I don't know if I can even imagine that on a big screen.

^ THIS. It was full of so much emotion, heroics and tragedy. Where the scale was so epic and the enemy so powerful that at the end of the day, the whole host of the gods (Valar) had to come to the rescue.

The story of Hurin's children though.. I wonder how they'd incorporate that? It's so sad, but eventually brings forth salvation..

I used to have a.. I think a 2nd edition copy of the Silmarillion with crusty maps from a used book store, and then someone stole it

Vexx · 2012-09-20, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

While I've not found a production blog number 9...there is this trailer.....

YouTube

https://youtu.be/hK-Ec-pJYxs

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

This trailer ... made me very happy. Jackson seems to have nailed that happy place between the sillier bits of the Hobbit and the grimness of LOTR to make them cohesive.

Endless Soul · 2012-09-20, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The Hobbit was presented as a children's novel. But with everything Tolkien had in mind put back in? Then it becomes a whole lot like the Lord of the Rings...just with more singing.

The Silmarillion, on the other hand...is so many stories. It is basically The Bible for Tolkien's world. I don't know if it could be made into a movie or even three movies. Also if done "to scale" with the other productions...the battles would be beyond epic. When the enemy had an Army of Dragons and Balrogs verses the High Elves in top form and the hieght of their power? I don't know if I can even imagine that on a big screen.

Plus there would be no main characters that continue for the entire set of films. The stories are on a biblical level.

Yep, and it reads like the Bible as well. I've managed to read it at least four times over my life. However, I do know some people, like my mom, who couldn't get past the first few pages because the literary style takes some getting used to which makes the reading difficulty rather high.

There's no possible way The Silmarillion can be made into a movie.

Endless "Avid reader" Soul

Ithekro · 2012-09-20, 15:52

Pieces of the Silmarillion might work as films. But you have to ask the major question...how does one present the Bible in visual media? A television series? A condensed 1950s to early 1960s film epic where you might follow some characters for a little while, then go into the next tale of their children, or of some people they encountered during the tale's children (How the West was Won), covering decades?

The Silmarillion covers the existance of Middle Earth from the creation to the end of the First Age of the Sun with some aftermath about the Second Age and how the tales of the Silmarils connect to the tales of the Lord of the Ring (the end of the Third Age). The constant is the light of the beginning eventually held in the Simarils and the quests to gain control of them or the reclaim them. The character change aside from the enemy. Very, very few characters are present thought the entire thing. Some of the High Elves are there for most of it. Galadrial is there, but no really mentioned all that much...as she's one of, if not the last of the old High Elves in Middle Earth. The tales are mostly of the elves and then later the humans that interact with the elves. The origin of Elrond and the lineage of what would be the Kings of Gondor. It is all there. But it is a bastard to get through if you aren't into Tolkien or don't know what the stories lead into. I read it before reading any of the others in a college clase. I had no idea what any of it meant. I was bored reading it and I think I skipped stuff because of the Bibilcal nature of it. Without the context of the Hobbit or probably more importantly the Lord of the Rings...the Silmarillion is nearly useless as a thing to read. But some of the tales are good even without context. It is just that the full novel (in Bibilcal style) is boring for too many parts if you don't know the context.

Vexx · 2012-09-20, 15:57

There's a John Huston film that covers only the first part of Genesis (filmed 1966). It is both "epic" and turgid, a pain to sit through.

I love the Silmarillion.. but its like reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead, or any other mythological collections of stories - disjointed, every changing characters over time, etc. Even Cecil B. DeMille stuck to his "two pages of the Bible" theory for all his biblical films.

edit: ah, I forgot about "How the West was Won" ... it didn't do a terrible job but you end up feeling somewhat distanced from the characters and that feeling seems true of a lot of this sort of thing. I'm wondering how the new movie Cloud Atlas will actually play since it covers a huge span of time.

Kirarakim · 2012-09-20, 17:06

Another Silmarillion fan here, but then I also love mythology & it reads very much like that.

Endless Soul · 2012-09-20, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Pieces of the Silmarillion might work as films.

Oh absolutely, but only as pieces, and not the entire book.

A few years ago the book The Children of Húrin was released, which was actually a story within The Silmarillion. If I remember correctly, it was fleshed out a bit more from the work presented in The Silmarillion using liner notes from Tolkein himself. Worked pretty good as a separate book (although the story itself was quite depressing). If that could be done with a book, it can be done with a movie.

Endless "Epic fantasy" Soul

Mr Hat and Clogs · 2012-09-21, 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

This trailer ... made me very happy. Jackson seems to have nailed that happy place between the sillier bits of the Hobbit and the grimness of LOTR to make them cohesive.

LOL yeah, it was great, the only way I think it could have been better (if overly cliche) is at the end it had Smaug's eye opening up with Bilbo reflected in it in the distance with a slight golden glow of all the treasure he sleeps on.

Ithekro · 2012-09-21, 05:29

I don't think Smaug will show up until the second film. Them you will get your eye (or more).

KiraYamatoFan · 2012-09-21, 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

While I've not found a production blog number 9...there is this trailer.....

YouTube

https://youtu.be/hK-Ec-pJYxs

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Man! I can't wait for this.

The only question lingering is how Peter Jackson managed turning a single book into a full film trilogy. I don't think I can remember anyone adapting a book into a movie by going that way. Anyway, Jackson looks spot on once again and this will surely be awesome.

Xagzan · 2012-09-21, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

Oh absolutely, but only as pieces, and not the entire book.

A few years ago the book The Children of Húrin was released, which was actually a story within The Silmarillion. If I remember correctly, it was fleshed out a bit more from the work presented in The Silmarillion using liner notes from Tolkein himself. Worked pretty good as a separate book (although the story itself was quite depressing). If that could be done with a book, it can be done with a movie.

Endless "Epic fantasy" Soul

I think Beren and Luthien would be a prime candidate for a movie. It's been a while, but wasn't it one of the longer sections of the Silmarillion?

Honestly though, I'd just love to see the work PJ and Weta would do on such creatures like Ancalagon, Ungoliant, events like the War of Wrath, fall of Numenor, etc.

Endless Soul · 2012-09-21, 15:52

I suppose it's possible especially since Beren and Luthien were mentioned by Aragorn in the extended release of The Fellowship of the Ring. (You guys do have the extended movies, don't you? Don't you?)

On the other hand, I guess people may say "It's been done already with Aragorn/Arwen."

Endless "PJ" Soul

Vexx · 2012-09-21, 17:20

Of COURSE we have have the extended version.... we marathon them once every year or two.

Ithekro · 2012-09-21, 19:02

I don't do that much, though for a while I was replaying the major battles with the Rohirrim due to my involvment with a naval sim were I sort of extrapilated a 19th to 20th century Rohan/Gondor hybrid country in North America (Pacific Northwest) as a major power in an alternate reality world. Rohan and Gondor being native to the continent since the Second and Third Ages, and the End of the Third Age being somewhere around the 7th millennia BC (~6300 BC). Mt. Doom being the Yellowstone supervolcano. (I had them stagnate and get blown back back in technology and population due to a supervolcano eruption a hundred to three hundred years before what would be our earliest recorded History starts around Babylon and Egypt in the 4th millennia BC.)

Having Rohan/Gondor be "Native Americans"...just with armor, steel, and horses, makes things really interesting when the Spanish arrive in the 1500s. (Magic, elves, most Hobbits and Dwarves, and the more mystical creatures are all gone by then...there are rumors of Mithril used still in some things. And the Sword of the King still exists.)

It was all to show just how far I was willing to go with a fantasy setting in the 1800s without going beyond normal humans. All the Tolkien stories would be considered legends by the 1800s. Though there would be only limited debate on if those events really happened, as some legends would be reenacted every so often like holidays

(Examples: The Red Day would be March 15th and observed by they a major reenactment of the Battle of Pelennor Fields in front of what use to be called Minas Tirith. Rohirrim Army units and sometimes even the King himself would participate.

The King's Day (May 1st) Were the nation would remember the kings and queens of the past. Everyone has a favorite. Remembered as well is King Elessar, who is rumored to have lived 207 years. Maybe one day when the technology is avalible we can see for sure, as his body still lays in state in Mundburg (Rohirrim name for Minas Tirith) with two small people that we can only assume to be the hobbits Peregrin and Meriadoc. Who they really are is not known for sure.

Theoden's Day (August 10th) a day specifically to remember Theoden King, and for the present day sovereign of Rohan (and Gondor) to reflect on the line on Kings at the mounds of their father and grandfathers where the Simbelmyne still blooms. The tradition of reading the names of the kings and queens continues as it would be done when a new king takes the throne save the line is broken at Theoden to from those present to drink to his name. Then continues on from there until the present day king or queen is named, then a second drink is had. Theoden remains central to this day.

Fellowship Day (December 25th) remembers the date the Fellowship of the Ring departed on their quest. Many years later it has become a tradition to form a new Fellowship ever several years with the task of exploring the world. Making new maps, and finding out the places and allegences of those the Earth has to offer. It is unknown if Fellowships wondered Asia, Africa, and Europe in past millenia or not at this time. Has also started to take on a Christmas-like theme as more and more contact with the Europeans has continued over the last few centuries.)

Ithekro · 2012-09-23, 02:40

Only thing I never really figured out was the religion they would have by the 1800s. I sort of ignored it, because it was hard to justify a polytheistic religion that seems to act like a Christianity since Tolkien was Catholic. In the books, how does it come across if you're in a world were you can prove your creators exist?

The main thing was Rohan and Gondor were always against the Followers of the Eye. A cult/religion that worshiped Sauron or perhaps Saruman (it had been 8,000 or more years...things might have gotten a bit blurred). These were from the decendants of the other nations (Southrons and Easterlings) that became some of the other Native American nations across time (for example: Mississippians were Easterlings and Aztecs were Southrons). The Mississippians were wiped out by 1800 by a mix of the wars and the coming of the Europeans. The Aztec survived under various names (partly due to Rohan's interference against Cortez) until 1900 when Rohan finally defeated their empire. The remaining state somehow latched onto Marxism during the occupation and became a People's Democratic Republic by 1910.

2012-08-01, 12:39	Link #163
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	The Hobbit was presented as a children's novel. But with everything Tolkien had in mind put back in? Then it becomes a whole lot like the Lord of the Rings...just with more singing. The Silmarillion, on the other hand...is so many stories. It is basically The Bible for Tolkien's world. I don't know if it could be made into a movie or even three movies. Also if done "to scale" with the other productions...the battles would be beyond epic. When the enemy had an Army of Dragons and Balrogs verses the High Elves in top form and the hieght of their power? I don't know if I can even imagine that on a big screen. Plus there would be no main characters that continue for the entire set of films. The stories are on a biblical level. __________________

2012-09-20, 14:50	Link #165
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	While I've not found a production blog number 9...there is this trailer..... YouTube https://youtu.be/hK-Ec-pJYxs Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? __________________

2012-09-20, 15:52	Link #169
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Pieces of the Silmarillion might work as films. But you have to ask the major question...how does one present the Bible in visual media? A television series? A condensed 1950s to early 1960s film epic where you might follow some characters for a little while, then go into the next tale of their children, or of some people they encountered during the tale's children (How the West was Won), covering decades? The Silmarillion covers the existance of Middle Earth from the creation to the end of the First Age of the Sun with some aftermath about the Second Age and how the tales of the Silmarils connect to the tales of the Lord of the Ring (the end of the Third Age). The constant is the light of the beginning eventually held in the Simarils and the quests to gain control of them or the reclaim them. The character change aside from the enemy. Very, very few characters are present thought the entire thing. Some of the High Elves are there for most of it. Galadrial is there, but no really mentioned all that much...as she's one of, if not the last of the old High Elves in Middle Earth. The tales are mostly of the elves and then later the humans that interact with the elves. The origin of Elrond and the lineage of what would be the Kings of Gondor. It is all there. But it is a bastard to get through if you aren't into Tolkien or don't know what the stories lead into. I read it before reading any of the others in a college clase. I had no idea what any of it meant. I was bored reading it and I think I skipped stuff because of the Bibilcal nature of it. Without the context of the Hobbit or probably more importantly the Lord of the Rings...the Silmarillion is nearly useless as a thing to read. But some of the tales are good even without context. It is just that the full novel (in Bibilcal style) is boring for too many parts if you don't know the context. __________________

2012-09-20, 15:57	Link #170
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	There's a John Huston film that covers only the first part of Genesis (filmed 1966). It is both "epic" and turgid, a pain to sit through. I love the Silmarillion.. but its like reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead, or any other mythological collections of stories - disjointed, every changing characters over time, etc. Even Cecil B. DeMille stuck to his "two pages of the Bible" theory for all his biblical films. edit: ah, I forgot about "How the West was Won" ... it didn't do a terrible job but you end up feeling somewhat distanced from the characters and that feeling seems true of a lot of this sort of thing. I'm wondering how the new movie Cloud Atlas will actually play since it covers a huge span of time. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-09-20, 17:06	Link #171
Kirarakim Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007	Another Silmarillion fan here, but then I also love mythology & it reads very much like that. __________________ Twitter MAL

2012-08-01, 03:23	Link #161
Rahan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: France	I am not too fond of the "extra scenes". It may really ruin the pace of the movie. There is a reason Tolkien didn't develop them in the Hobbit in the first place.

2012-09-21, 05:29	Link #174
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	I don't think Smaug will show up until the second film. Them you will get your eye (or more). __________________

2012-09-21, 15:52	Link #177
Endless Soul Megane girl fan Join Date: May 2011 Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe. Age: 55	I suppose it's possible especially since Beren and Luthien were mentioned by Aragorn in the extended release of The Fellowship of the Ring. (You guys do have the extended movies, don't you? Don't you?) On the other hand, I guess people may say "It's been done already with Aragorn/Arwen." Endless "PJ" Soul __________________ Signature by ganbaru

2012-09-21, 17:20	Link #178
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	Of COURSE we have have the extended version.... we marathon them once every year or two. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-09-21, 19:02	Link #179
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	I don't do that much, though for a while I was replaying the major battles with the Rohirrim due to my involvment with a naval sim were I sort of extrapilated a 19th to 20th century Rohan/Gondor hybrid country in North America (Pacific Northwest) as a major power in an alternate reality world. Rohan and Gondor being native to the continent since the Second and Third Ages, and the End of the Third Age being somewhere around the 7th millennia BC (~6300 BC). Mt. Doom being the Yellowstone supervolcano. (I had them stagnate and get blown back back in technology and population due to a supervolcano eruption a hundred to three hundred years before what would be our earliest recorded History starts around Babylon and Egypt in the 4th millennia BC.) Having Rohan/Gondor be "Native Americans"...just with armor, steel, and horses, makes things really interesting when the Spanish arrive in the 1500s. (Magic, elves, most Hobbits and Dwarves, and the more mystical creatures are all gone by then...there are rumors of Mithril used still in some things. And the Sword of the King still exists.) It was all to show just how far I was willing to go with a fantasy setting in the 1800s without going beyond normal humans. All the Tolkien stories would be considered legends by the 1800s. Though there would be only limited debate on if those events really happened, as some legends would be reenacted every so often like holidays (Examples: The Red Day would be March 15th and observed by they a major reenactment of the Battle of Pelennor Fields in front of what use to be called Minas Tirith. Rohirrim Army units and sometimes even the King himself would participate. The King's Day (May 1st) Were the nation would remember the kings and queens of the past. Everyone has a favorite. Remembered as well is King Elessar, who is rumored to have lived 207 years. Maybe one day when the technology is avalible we can see for sure, as his body still lays in state in Mundburg (Rohirrim name for Minas Tirith) with two small people that we can only assume to be the hobbits Peregrin and Meriadoc. Who they really are is not known for sure. Theoden's Day (August 10th) a day specifically to remember Theoden King, and for the present day sovereign of Rohan (and Gondor) to reflect on the line on Kings at the mounds of their father and grandfathers where the Simbelmyne still blooms. The tradition of reading the names of the kings and queens continues as it would be done when a new king takes the throne save the line is broken at Theoden to from those present to drink to his name. Then continues on from there until the present day king or queen is named, then a second drink is had. Theoden remains central to this day. Fellowship Day (December 25th) remembers the date the Fellowship of the Ring departed on their quest. Many years later it has become a tradition to form a new Fellowship ever several years with the task of exploring the world. Making new maps, and finding out the places and allegences of those the Earth has to offer. It is unknown if Fellowships wondered Asia, Africa, and Europe in past millenia or not at this time. Has also started to take on a Christmas-like theme as more and more contact with the Europeans has continued over the last few centuries.) __________________ Last edited by Ithekro; 2012-09-21 at 23:12.

2012-09-23, 02:40	Link #180
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Only thing I never really figured out was the religion they would have by the 1800s. I sort of ignored it, because it was hard to justify a polytheistic religion that seems to act like a Christianity since Tolkien was Catholic. In the books, how does it come across if you're in a world were you can prove your creators exist? The main thing was Rohan and Gondor were always against the Followers of the Eye. A cult/religion that worshiped Sauron or perhaps Saruman (it had been 8,000 or more years...things might have gotten a bit blurred). These were from the decendants of the other nations (Southrons and Easterlings) that became some of the other Native American nations across time (for example: Mississippians were Easterlings and Aztecs were Southrons). The Mississippians were wiped out by 1800 by a mix of the wars and the coming of the Europeans. The Aztec survived under various names (partly due to Rohan's interference against Cortez) until 1900 when Rohan finally defeated their empire. The remaining state somehow latched onto Marxism during the occupation and became a People's Democratic Republic by 1910. __________________