Aldnoah.Zero - generic discussion thread

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm not ignoring anything. Lelouch and L-Elf had good narrative reasons to be who they are and balanced their competence from lacking something deeply. Lelouch was show as a genius, son of a family of geniuses and conquerors since the beginning. L-Elf was a child soldier who was a member of an elite army squad group who had a high military ranking at his age since introduction. Lelouch was a poor fit physically and didn't pilot to balance his strategy genius; L-Elf was kept from piloting the Valvrave (and any robot even if he was the obvious superior pilot) in the show to balance him plus his people's skills were atrocious until the very end (cd drama) that he's learning... so atrocious Saki called on him in that cd drama about how he can't communicate and this generated problems to them.

Inaho's an "ordinary high school student" without any background or special backstory to support his valuable asset card. In fact, he lacks the flaws and challenges those two characters have (and any sort of charisma which also played in how they wormed themselves a place) yet he's obeyed and followed unquestionably for no reason. L-Elf didn't count with help until episode 8 and even then, he didn't gain everyone's trust until the Earth mission in season 2. Lelouch had his low and ups including betrayal within his faction. Neither Lelouch nor L-Elf counted with support as easily as Inaho since the beginning. Any opposition he had was dismissed immediately. He can also do anything: he can pilot the robot, he can get a group of friends despite his "personality" and their blind trust.

No offense, but your examples are poorly chosen and I find offensive to compare two beloved characters with you know who.

I don't know why you're bringing up back story of each of these character when they don't have much to do with my point. My point was that each character had traits and resources that would made it impossible for someone to replace them with a standard mook and still have the story go exactly the same. I chose those characters because the person I was replying to used them earlier. I could have used Amuro, Aoba, Kira, Simon, and several other protagonists and my point would be the same.

I am simply stating these characters have assets, abilities,and traits that make them valuable to whatever faction they are fighting for and can't just be found in any standard mook on the same side. If you want to compare the writing quality of each character then go ahead but that was never my point. If you find if offensive that I compared Inaho to other beloved characters even when all I was stating was that they all are valuable to their faction then I'm sorry but regardless of opinion of the characters in question they can have similarities whether deep similarities or basic ones.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by the one above all

I don't know why you're bringing up back story of each of these character when they don't have much to do with my point. My point was that each character had traits and resources that would made it impossible for someone to replace them with a standard mook and still have the story go exactly the same. I chose those characters because the person I was replying to used them earlier. I could have used Amuro, Aoba, Kira, Simon, and several other protagonists and my point would be the same.

[QUOTE=the one above all;5246626]All of those protagonists had deterrent and barriers they had to deal with.

Originally Posted by the one above all

I am simply stating these characters have assets, abilities,and traits that make them valuable to whatever faction they are fighting for and can't just be found in any standard mook on the same side. If you want to compare the writing quality of each character then go ahead but that was never my point. If you find if offensive that I compared Inaho to other beloved characters even when all I was stating was that they all are valuable to their faction then I'm sorry but regardless of opinion of the characters in question they can have similarities whether deep similarities or basic ones.

They had assets for a reason. Abilities for a reason. All has to be justified in the framing of the show to be acceptable. As they were with those characters you used for comparison.

They were bad picks.

[Wandering Soul]

[QUOTE=Thess;5246643]

Originally Posted by the one above all

All of those protagonists had deterrent and barriers they had to deal with.



They had assets for a reason. Abilities for a reason. All has to be justified in the framing of the show to be acceptable. As they were with those characters you used for comparison.

They were bad picks.

As I said the comparing the writing quality of each of these characters and their abilities wasn't really my point. I was trying to explain to the person I replied to why some people are dismissing Inaho's classmates and some members of the crew as useless. Some people were making the point that most of those people are really no different from mooks with names and faces. How they are portraying Inaho and his qualities is an argument that has been had before and frankly it is one that people are getting tired since it usually just starts to become constant Inaho bashing so I have no desire to start another one of these arguments.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by the one above all

As I said the comparing the writing quality of each of these characters and their abilities wasn't really my point. I was trying to explain to the person I replied to why some people are dismissing Inaho's classmates and some members of the crew as useless. Some people were making the point that most of those people are really no different from mooks with names and faces. How they are portraying Inaho and his qualities is an argument that has been had before and frankly it is one that people are getting tired since it usually just starts to become constant Inaho bashing so I have no desire to start another one of these arguments.

You judge the characters not by the result but how they are sensical and well written.

The choice of characters who had actual difficulties and far more reason to work than the character of this show of your show was bad. L-Elf was trusted but how long did that take huh? And he didn't always succeeded (Cain, A-drei, etc). If the cast of characters is reduced to mooks with faces for no reason to use your label (they received the same training, so how come Inaho is so speshful) then something is wrong and you bet your sweet ass we're going to point out exactly what's wrong here, in particular because someone has the cheek to try to compare Lelouch and L-Elf to... well... Inaho. There's a good reason why two of them are popular in their respective Japanese fanbases while Inaho receives flak and bashing. It's not because he's competent or the Main character (Lelouch was both of that).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Thess

He was the heir apparent of an Empire before his exile. He had the education for it.

Just a nitpick, but I don't remember Lelouch ever being the heir apparent. Even before his disgrace and exile to Japan, he always had plenty of older brothers from wives higher ranked than his mother. I think the heir apparent was called Ulysses or something. Schneitzel was n° 2.

Though of course, Lelouch eventually got the throne by right of conquest. Might making right in Britannia, being the oldest isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I'm not hugely attached to either of the main characters. I just happen to think some of the criticism Slaine gets is pretty absurd. As far as I'm concerned he's neither stupid nor incompetent, he just gets crewed over by the (somewhat forced) writing.

Inaho is probably the more unique and series defining character of the two male leads. However, there are some significant issues with how he's written. Not only is he the only terran who can come up with strategies that actually work against the Martians, he's also the best pilot, best sharpshooter, is skilled in hand to hand combat, and knows advanced first aid. He basically completely overshadows everyone else on the Earth side when it comes to dealing with crisis situations. One could probably argue that his teammates most important role is actually to play off his bland personality to make him more interesting rather than helping him in battle.

I don't think Inaho's technical skills in a mech are that great. Better than his classmates, but he's no Spinzaku. Nobody's in awe of what he can do as a pilot.

What he has going for him:
- he took his training seriously.
- he's very cool headed, even in desperate situations. That allows him to actually use his training instead of panicking.
- he's "clever". The way McGuyver's clever. It works out for him, but you kinda have to sometimes suspend your disbelief a bit.

[Mikethemaster]

Originally Posted by Thess

Nobody scanned Archivez 3 which includes original draft to what Gen Urobuchi wrote.

Well that sucks but thanks for answering my question.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Just a nitpick, but I don't remember Lelouch ever being the heir apparent. Even before his disgrace and exile to Japan, he always had plenty of older brothers from wives higher ranked than his mother. I think the heir apparent was called Ulysses or something. Schneitzel was n° 2.

Lelouch was the strong candidate for the throne due to Marianne, despite his birth order. But what I'm saying is this:

Lelouch had a privileged education and ambition/sights for the throne like some of his capable siblings. He became the leader of the Black Knights because the rest count with this advantage in knowing how the Britannian worked. It's not just "he's smart', there's a background information including his status and his experience as fallen prince (as his obvious royal charisma and his eye powers). He's also skilled in chess since the beginning.

L-Elf was a child soldier trained by the show main antagonist who is known as One Man Army feared by the military forces of ARUS. The Module lacked someone with actual experience in military, so L-Elf was the call for it.

Let's now take Inaho, since someone insists to compare him. His education is no better and no worse than his classmates. His birth is ordinary. He had no special features during the first two episodes. He shows off his research by... looking for egg sales and his logical planning thinking by staying home and foolishly cooking in middle of an emergency. Yeah, not exactly the shows and displays of a prodigy genius the show forced him to be by making everyone around him less than competent in their roles, including the villains. He's not the only one who causes this (Rayet and Slaine did it too) but he's the greatest offender. I can let Rayet slide because she had a secret training by a group of assassins and Slaine at least compensates by the fact things backfire and gets negative consequences. So, the one above all, unlike the examples with Lelouch and L-Elf were they were necessary because effectively, nobody could fill their roles for who they were, Inaho doesn't have that excuse. Even his sister is part of the military and received the same training longer than he did.

There's no justification for being who he is and what he can do, other than bad writing and forcing the story to go to a direction that's perceived unnatural and laughable. If there was, if Inaho was indeed some special trained kid soldier who lived as L-Elf while his classmates weren't? I would totally agree with your comparison, but he isn't. So please pick better examples. Amuro isn't a good example either. He had The Gundam (and his father was an important scientist involved in its project). Kira was born a Super Coordinator. Etc. Even Haruto was the "son" of the head scientist and had the original Valvrave (and he experienced a lot of negative consequences). In case of Inaho, it's "Just Because." The height of bad writing. You're saying in the whole wide world he was the only one because...

Because? Yeah. Exactly, there's zero reason for that. Zero.

Actually, it's so bad some of his fans not knowing are trying to fix it by making him Saazbaum's son, something that justifies his presence and role in general. If you notice his co-protagonists have reasons to exist that are plot connected (Slaine is Doctor Troyard's son who is a mysterious but pivotal figure and Asseylum is the Princess of Mars). It's because he's not really working as character, or there wouldn't need of that kind of speculation. Just my two cents.

I didn't want to speak of Inaho anymore, but bringing in comparisons with characters I love like that kind of triggered me to go against the "excuses."

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Thess

Lelouch was the strong candidate for the throne due to Marianne, despite his birth order. But what I'm saying is this:

Lelouch had a privileged education and ambition/sights for the throne like some of his capable siblings. He became the leader of the Black Knights because the rest count with this advantage in knowing how the Britannian worked. It's not just "he's smart', there's a background information including his status and his experience as fallen prince (as his obvious royal charisma and his eye powers). He's also skilled in chess since the beginning.

L-Elf was a child soldier trained by the show main antagonist who is known as One Man Army feared by the military forces of ARUS. The Module lacked someone with actual experience in military, so L-Elf was the call for it.

Let's now take Inaho, since someone insists to compare him. His education is no better and no worse than his classmates. His birth is ordinary. He had no special features during the first two episodes. He shows off his research by... looking for egg sales and his logical planning thinking by staying home and foolishly cooking in middle of an emergency. Yeah, not exactly the shows and displays of a prodigy genius the show forced him to be by making everyone around him less than competent in their roles, including the villains. He's not the only one who causes this (Rayet and Slaine did it too) but he's the greatest offender. I can let Rayet slide because she had a secret training by a group of assassins and Slaine at least compensates by the fact things backfire and gets negative consequences. So, the one above all, unlike the examples with Lelouch and L-Elf were they were necessary because effectively, nobody could fill their roles for who they were, Inaho doesn't have that excuse. Even his sister is part of the military and received the same training longer than he did.

There's no justification for being who he is and what he can do, other than bad writing and forcing the story to go to a direction that's perceived unnatural and laughable. If there was, if Inaho was indeed some special trained kid soldier who lived as L-Elf while his classmates weren't? I would totally agree with your comparison, but he isn't. So please pick better examples. Amuro isn't a good example either. He had The Gundam (and his father was an important scientist involved in its project). Kira was born a Super Coordinator. Etc. Even Haruto was the "son" of the head scientist and had the original Valvrave (and he experienced a lot of negative consequences). In case of Inaho, it's "Just Because." The height of bad writing. You're saying in the whole wide world he was the only one because...

Because? Yeah. Exactly, there's zero reason for that. Zero.

Actually, it's so bad some of his fans not knowing are trying to fix it by making him Saazbaum's son, something that justifies his presence and role in general. If you notice his co-protagonists have reasons to exist that are plot connected (Slaine is Doctor Troyard's son who is a mysterious but pivotal figure and Asseylum is the Princess of Mars). It's because he's not really working as character, or there wouldn't need of that kind of speculation. Just my two cents.

I didn't want to speak of Inaho anymore, but bringing in comparisons with characters I love like that kind of triggered me to go against the "excuses."

My comparison was simply that the characters have abilities. That was as far as the comparison I was making was meant to go and it's a basic comparison that I could have made with anyone. I could have used any other character if Inaho bothers you use so much and my point would be the same. Another basic comparison I could have made was that they are males. Would that have gotten you so upset?

I'm not saying that Inaho is perfect or that he is written better than any of those other characters. I'm bringing up a presence of abilities in the characters. I'm not building one character's abilities up or demeaning another. This has just turned into an argument that has little to do with my original point since you seem to acting like I said that Inaho is as well written as those other character which I never said. Or because I brought a comparison with some of your favorite characters despite the fact that the comparison was as a simple as they have they have qualifies which could have made with just about any character.

But yeah let's stop this argument since the very mention of Inaho seems to set you off and we will just end up going on in circles.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by the one above all

My comparison was simply that the characters have abilities. That was as far as the comparison I was making was meant to go and it's a basic comparison that I could have made with anyone.

It was an inappropriate comparison. Once again, I'll explain you why.

Lelouch was the leader of the Black Knights because he's a fallen Britannian Prince. His abilities weren't important, they were fluff and consequence to his title, backstory and standing. His role is important because he's the prince who got pissed off with daddy and loves his sister.

L-Elf was the strategist of the Module because he's a Dorssian deserter who wanted revolution and a super soldier special agent trained from young age feared and respected in two countries to all who know their names. Again, his abilities are complimentary to who he is.

You should ask who the character is first. Not what they can do. Because they can do anything the plot allows them to do. Inko could wake up a super genius tomorrow and solo the Martians, because why not? The "why not" is answered when you fill her backstory and resulting role.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Thess

Yeah. Exactly, there's zero reason for that. Zero.

And so at least we know the zero part of Aldnoah Zero

I didn't want to butt in in your dispute, but I found it interesting to explore Inaho's character a bit more so I'll go on.

My "objection" is that if L-Elf and Leoluch would have been dumb persons all the training or their status or whatever wouldn't have change it. They still would have been dumb, despite it, so they wouldn't have accomplished anything.
Personally I think that their histories and backgrounds was meant mostly to justify their ambitious goals and their drive. Their skills are strictly related to their personal talents. Instead their goals stemmed by their past, backgrounds and all.

For the same reason it wouldn't make any sense, or zero sense, if Inaho from the start had had as his goal, say, the dominion of Mars. Because until now he lived the live of a normal guy. And so he did't have any a particular aim except Master-chef maybe, because he didn't need to.

Or on the other way around, if you put L-Elf or Leoluch in a normal context as the one Inaho is, and lived in, then they wouldn't act far differently from Inaho. Apart from their inner specific traits.

Those characters had from the get-go their backgrounds and all, defining and justifying so their goals and their drive.
In Inaho's case the writers decided to start from the very beginning, from what in CG and VVV was the back histories for those other two characters.
Namely from a normal guy living a normal live who happens to have great talent, that now is facing for his first time a grim time. And his story narrates how his drive is forming and for what reasons.
And in fact his character is following exactly this path. The path of a guy that started as a normal guy, Earth got hit, his friend died and so he acted. But it was a war loss, so not enough to pull out his drive. He avenged him. And that's all.
In parallel he met with the princess. And from that point onward you can see how he little by little shaped out is resolve to defend her and his friends.



So, I know that you don't like him in the slightest, everybody got that, but I don't think you can claim that he is so badly written, because he is consistent with the context, his past and the universe he is in. At least until they won't go with that speculation that he is the son of Orlene. But well, let's say that it' very very unlikely.
Is he interesting? That all another matter, but a personal matter.

Just to be clear, it's not that he is particularly well written either. He is just fine, as I said, considering his context and universe. I never denied some of the criticisms he got.

That said I like quite a bit the angle they have chosen to follow for his character.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Thess

Lelouch was the strong candidate for the throne due to Marianne, despite his birth order.

He was never a "strong contender" in the eyes of the law. He was already a genius as a child, and Britannian politics being what they were, it was a possibility he'd outfight all his siblings. His father did.

And Marianne was a handicap due to her low birth. The fact Charles loved her was a state secret even their children weren't aware of because of it.

But what I'm saying is this:

Lelouch had a privileged education and ambition/sights for the throne like some of his capable siblings.

It's likely all princes and princesses had roughly the same educational opportunities, because why not? Lelouch just took to it better than anybody else save Schneitzel.

He became the leader of the Black Knights because the rest count with this advantage in knowing how the Britannian worked. It's not just "he's smart', there's a background information including his status and his experience as fallen prince (as his obvious royal charisma and his eye powers).

He stopped being a prince when he was ten or so.

He's also skilled in chess since the beginning.

And how is that relevant? Or did Kasparov use his chess knowledge to successfully take power in Russia?

L-Elf was a child soldier trained by the show main antagonist who is known as One Man Army feared by the military forces of ARUS. The Module lacked someone with actual experience in military, so L-Elf was the call for it.

Put a rifle in a child's hand and give him some training, and what you usually get is a very shitty, very terrified child soldier.

Let's now take Inaho, since someone insists to compare him. His education is no better and no worse than his classmates. His birth is ordinary. He had no special features during the first two episodes. He shows off his research by... looking for egg sales and his logical planning thinking by staying home and foolishly cooking in middle of an emergency. Yeah, not exactly the shows and displays of a prodigy genius the show forced him to be by making everyone around him less than competent in their roles, including the villains. He's not the only one who causes this (Rayet and Slaine did it too) but he's the greatest offender. I can let Rayet slide because she had a secret training by a group of assassins and Slaine at least compensates by the fact things backfire and gets negative consequences. So, the one above all, unlike the examples with Lelouch and L-Elf were they were necessary because effectively, nobody could fill their roles for who they were, Inaho doesn't have that excuse. Even his sister is part of the military and received the same training longer than he did.

There's no justification for being who he is and what he can do, other than bad writing and forcing the story to go to a direction that's perceived unnatural and laughable. If there was, if Inaho was indeed some special trained kid soldier who lived as L-Elf while his classmates weren't? I would totally agree with your comparison, but he isn't. So please pick better examples. Amuro isn't a good example either. He had The Gundam (and his father was an important scientist involved in its project). Kira was born a Super Coordinator. Etc. Even Haruto was the "son" of the head scientist and had the original Valvrave (and he experienced a lot of negative consequences). In case of Inaho, it's "Just Because." The height of bad writing. You're saying in the whole wide world he was the only one because...

Because? Yeah. Exactly, there's zero reason for that. Zero.

Look, I don't want to give the impression I disliked Code Geass or Valvrave. I loved those shows. But you have to realize: the explanations you gave for Lelouch and L-Elf being able to do (which, by the way, are way more ludicrous than anything Inaho ever did - plans as delicate as theirs aren't supposed to work) what they did are complete bullshit. It's bullshit we're supposed to accept, along with mechas working, and a thousand contrived coincidences. Willing suspension of disbelief and all that.

And how much of it do we need for Inaho? He's a cool customer, and serious about his training, and pretty smart, but people like that aren't that rare. And being like that, of course he's going to perform well. The real bullshit is that he'd meet the princess, I suppose, instead of her getting lost in the evacuation and finished by Trillram or something.

Or do you write to star athletes and tell them their lives are badly written? After all, countless others practice a sport since childhood and lack the ability to even go pro. They're not all sons and daughters of long lines of pro athletes.

Really, what I get is that you like stories where a "secret prince faces his destiny", but loath ones where an "everyman rises to the occasion". Which is fine for you, but not relevant to me or anyone else.

Actually, it's so bad some of his fans not knowing are trying to fix it by making him Saazbaum's son, something that justifies his presence and role in general. If you notice his co-protagonists have reasons to exist that are plot connected (Slaine is Doctor Troyard's son who is a mysterious but pivotal figure and Asseylum is the Princess of Mars). It's because he's not really working as character, or there wouldn't need of that kind of speculation. Just my two cents.

Yeah, well, not me. I'm not a big believer in aristocracy.

[AverageFan]

Just out of curiosity is the debate about Inaho’s character is being written or hows he is presented in the show or something?

[LightDragonman]

Seems to be both.

Also, what say you on these impressions of the show so far?

http://thecartdriver.com/aldnoah-zer...r-development/

[Rokumonsen]

Just finished the latest episode. Very good, so far.

But I think a 1-cour-per-season isn't enough for this series. The story has so much potential. They should've made this longer. But then again, money talks.

[Mikethemaster]

You know i just watch the trialers for this anime and they make seem really epic with a complex romance a story of politics and all that jazz when really it one of those anime that are just blockbusters with alot of acton an that about it I still enjoy this series but the trialers they lied to me. TwT

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by Mikethemaster

You know i just watch the trialers for this anime and they make seem really epic with a complex romance a story of politics and all that jazz when really it one of those anime that are just blockbusters with alot of acton an that about it I still enjoy this series but the trialers they lied to me. TwT

Which trailer is that may I asked?

[Mikethemaster]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Which trailer is that may I asked?

No trialer just talking shit but the 3rd trialer seem like it would have a deep complex story with some characters death and coming of age but eh I really don't care about that anyways as long as entertains me i am good.

[TonyC1994]

I'm actually quite fond of Inaho's character. He's calm, rational, and get's the job done.

Now, with that said, I DO think that they give him a bit to much of the spotlight during battle scenes. I don't mind him kicking ass, just don't make everyone else completely useless while he's doing it. At least introduce older skilled soldiers that can also match up against the Martians.

Also for his combat abilities, meh, I just convince myself he is a genius...(the 1 in a million kind)

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by TonyC1994

Also for his combat abilities, meh, I just convince myself he is a genius...(the 1 in a million kind)

That's probably for the best, really.
Personally, I quite enjoyed his character, as well. Too bad, then...

[Myssa Rei]

Dunno if this is the right thread for this, but people will be tickled to know that the manga version of Aldnoah's story... is being printed by Manga Time Kirara (Forward in this case, which featured Dream Eater Merry and Hanayamata), of all magazines.



This is likely a guest appearance, before moving to some place more permanent, but man, the funny logical leaps one can make with the Kirara connection.

For context of how it appears on the actual Kirara/Houbunsha main website: