Good Ending (GE)

[evil|plushie]

LOL!! She was forced to close her website cause lots of otaku started posting negative comments when it was shown that Shou had a hickey and implied that she had sex with her new bf. And you're using THAT example to try and prove your point about what's wrong with the manga?? Did you rage over Nagi-chan being used as well?

I already said I think Utsumi is a normal guy because he doesn't usually go out of his way to help anyone. You think he's a good guy because he's done nothing bad, which I disagree with because imo to be a good guy, you have to prove yourself to be good and not just non-bad. I'm sorry, this is not me not knowing what a good guy is. This is you not getting it. I'll put it in easier terms. A good guy would be like getting an A. A bad boy would be like a C. Just because you're not a C doesn't mean you're an A. It just means you could be B unless proven otherwise. Your example is like saying if someone's not a moron, he MUST be a genius. So unless you can prove that a) Utsumi does consistently go out of his way to help others , I'm going to stick with my opinion that Utsumi is just a normal guy.

And no one ever said you said a good guy was a sure shot to get a female. You claimed the opposite actually, that good guys don't seem to get the females. Plus Yuki obviously knows what she's talking about because it was WITH her coaching that Utsumi even managed to attract Shou's attention in the first place.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

LOL!! She was forced to close her website cause lots of otaku started posting negative comments when it was shown that Shou had a hickey and implied that she had sex with her new bf. And you're using THAT example to try and prove your point about what's wrong with the manga?? Did you rage over Nagi-chan being used as well?

This attack on the website just proves that not everything is right with the story, because again - otherwise we would have a smooth sailing, like To-Love-Ru or something. But so far it looks like it is not pleasing its full audience and thats what manga should do because the audience is the reason why mangaka's have the job to begin with, and while otakus are an annoying part of it, it is no point to argue that they also spend more money on the stuff than the normal fans either, so its not good to loose their support specially when it turns negative.

They have more importance than you or I, sadly.

Something is wrong with the story, but in this case it is more wrong with the choice of the place the story is placed on. But again - mangaka is either a retard, naive or very courageous for doing what she did with the story. But because she closed her site proves that we probably should take the courages part from here. Or else she would have kept the site rolling and stick with her truth rather than escaping the direct touch with fans by closing the site (it was not hacked and not really flooded as badly as some like to make it sound, it's more overreaction from the author herself).

In same cases controversy works for the creation (Evangelion for example) but it does not happen all that often, and considering that the author seems to crumble from the harsh criticism it doesn't seem to be the case here. The personality of the maker does not seem to be strong enough to pull benefit from it. I may be wrong though.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

I already said I think Utsumi is a normal guy because he doesn't usually go out of his way to help anyone. You think he's a good guy because he's done nothing bad, which I disagree with because imo to be a good guy, you have to prove yourself to be good and not just non-bad. I'm sorry, this is not me not knowing what a good guy is. This is you not getting it. I'll put it in easier terms. A good guy would be like getting an A. A bad boy would be like a C. Just because you're not a C doesn't mean you're an A. It just means you could be B unless proven otherwise. Your example is like saying if someone's not a moron, he MUST be a genius. So unless you can prove that a) Utsumi does consistently go out of his way to help others , I'm going to stick with my opinion that Utsumi is just a normal guy.

And thats where you are wrong, prove me that he is a normal guy and not a good guy. You claim that he is a normal guy but have nothing to support the claim except he does not go to help others, but how do you know? The story is not about helping others or not, maybe he does, the story just focuses on the love affairs and if you want to prove that Utsu is indeed normal guy you have to tell me how a good guy would act in these moments as these.

Thats the only material we have to judge, so stop sticking your pointless outer-personal arguments because they simply do not work as this manga does not shed any light in this matter. So we both can be wrong or right, but the fact is we cannot place any truth on this relationship and we have to base on inner-personal relationship on him being a good or normal guy.

I claim that he is a good guy - not a good guy would have started arguing with Shou specially because he learned about the thing not from her (as she was trying to mask it) maybe even punching her boyfriend.

But he does step aside and tries to act with Shou friendly (I think normal guy would not do that straight away as he did).

You say it is a features of a normal guy, ok, but then you have to say how the good guy would have acted if you can make such distinguish normal and good.

Yet you fail pretty terribly to explain why you can make such judgment except for repeating same old - he does not go to help others - but how do you you know he does not? The manga never tells us about anything other than his love life (or failures of it) thats why you cannot hold it as judging value at all.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

And no one ever said you said a good guy was a sure shot to get a female. You claimed the opposite actually, that good guys don't seem to get the females. Plus Yuki obviously knows what she's talking about because it was WITH her coaching that Utsumi even managed to attract Shou's attention in the first place.

The results speak otherwise. Shou did not particularly hesitate to go to that guys side, so it is obvious that the attention grabbing effect was skin deep and whenever better guy comes around Utsu is very likely to be dished aside for that better guy. I would not call it a particularly effective.

He needs to be that better guy for whom the girls dish their temporary substitutes like current Utsu and Yuki does not seem to teach that.

[DJ Trouble]

The only thing the attack proves is that people are selfish, assholes. Not liking the story is fine, but harassing the author because the story doesn't fit your ideal conventions that you use as an escapism from your own pathetic life is wrong. There are no two ways about that. It's wrong.

If they didn't like the story they could have just said that, but no. They were harassing her to the point that she had to the close down the site just to get away from it.

Also, when there's little to no evidence, you should assume something or someone is average before assuming they're special.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

You say it is a features of a normal guy, ok, but then you have to say how the good guy would have acted if you can make such distinguish normal and good.

Everything a "good guy" does isn't going to be "good". Just because a normal guy does something doesn't mean a "good guy" isn't allowed to do it. "Good guys" can have normal reactions to things do, especially if they aren't "bad" reactions.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

The only thing the attack proves is that people are selfish, assholes. Not liking the story is fine, but harassing the author because the story doesn't fit your ideal conventions that you use as an escapism from your own pathetic life is wrong. There are no two ways about that. It's wrong.

If they didn't like the story they could have just said that, but no. They were harassing her to the point that she had to the close down the site just to get away from it.

Also, when there's little to no evidence, you should assume something or someone is average before assuming they're special.

I count that there is more evidence to support my claim of him being good guy rather than normal one, than the evidence of him being normal. And that is the difference. So far I have not seen any other argument for him not being good but the claim that he does not go to help other people, but again this claim is completely vague because the manga does not focuses on such relationships at all, thus you have to find the evidences in the interpersonal affairs - I have listed mine, and would like to see you listing yours (as in how the good guy would act differently from Utsu in the situation, to support that he really is not a good guy).

And yeah - such fan behavior is nothing to be proud of, but because such thing happens it means that the manga does something to provoke them. There are never smokes without a fire you know. And this fire is what is wrong with this manga (though the majority of this wrong is because of the badly chosen magazine as it seems).

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

Everything a "good guy" does isn't going to be "good". Just because a normal guy does something doesn't mean a "good guy" isn't allowed to do it. "Good guys" can have normal reactions to things do, especially if they aren't "bad" reactions.

Thats why I said that I cannot see that line between normal and good guys, for me the what you call normal is good. He acts good from time to time and from time to time doesn't. But if the good also acts good from time to time and from time to time doesn't that makes them bit too similar to be able to distinguish.

Thats why I am asking for you to prove the good guy acts difference from Utsu in the given situations.

[Arturro]

Guys, maybe you should use "nice guy" and "a player" distinction instead of "good guy"/ "bad guy". GE protagonist is IMO a typical "nice guy", ideal for a friend (from womens point of view), but not for a lover. Most of womens prefers "players" not only in manga (except shounens and harems) but in real life too. "Nice guy" is in most cases a "good guy" or "normal guy", but I've meet in my life a few "nice guys" being truly evil. "Players" are in many cases an "evil" (manipulators and egoists), but a lots of normal guys or even good one, are pretending to be a "player" just to win love of their chosen girl. If Utsumi wants a girl, he should pretend to be a "player".

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Arturro

Guys, maybe you should use "nice guy" and "a player" distinction instead of "good guy"/ "bad guy". GE protagonist is IMO a typical "nice guy", ideal for a friend (from womens point of view), but not for a lover. Most of womens prefers "players" not only in manga (except shounens and harems) but in real life too. "Nice guy" is in most cases a "good guy" or "normal guy", but I've meet in my life a few "nice guys" being truly evil. "Players" are in many cases an "evil" (manipulators and egoists), but a lots of normal guys or even good one, are pretending to be a "player" just to win love of their chosen girl. If Utsumi wants a girl, he should pretend to be a "player".

That makes sense since when I am thinking about bad guy I am thinking more of a player, though seriously bad guy would have just raped Shou or blackmailed her for something, or just used some other dirty way on her.

And yeah GE hero is a typical nice guy, a good friend, but not someone women think as lover, thats why I am saying that Yuki's teachings doesn't seem to do much good for him, since it is all making the typical nice guy more that is a friend, whom you want to take for a cup of coffee, but not someone as lover whom you want to share your bed with.

If Utsu will follow Yuki's guiding the best he will get will be few one-night stand accidents because the girls need to mend their hurt heart after broken relationships, before they move on for some better guys as lover leaving Utsu to look after their kids or something.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

If Utsu will follow Yuki's guiding the best he will get will be few one-night stand accidents because the girls need to mend their hurt heart after broken relationships, before they move on for some better guys as lover leaving Utsu to look after their kids or something.

I don't see how you can say that when, by following Yuki's advice, got Shou to notice him as a potential boyfriend. Regardless of how the outcome turned out, this definitely happened. While no single woman is exactly the same, Yuki's advice, in the general respect of the story, seems effective enough for his char type. To expect him to be instantly outgoing, cool, or "bad" in any short span of time is too far-fetched and simply ridiculous. He started out as a less-than-average guy with relatively no commu skills with women. How much can you expect out of a guy like this?

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by frubam

I don't see how you can say that when, by following Yuki's advice, got Shou to notice him as a potential boyfriend. Regardless of how the outcome turned out, this definitely happened. While no single woman is exactly the same, Yuki's advice, in the general respect of the story, seems effective enough for his char type. To expect him to be instantly outgoing, cool, or "bad" in any short span of time is too far-fetched and simply ridiculous. He started out as a less-than-average guy with relatively no commu skills with women. How much can you expect out of a guy like this?

It made him being noticed. But as potential love interest? I am not so sure, she discarded bit too quickly for that, he seems more like a built up being a girls friend than her lover, she only noticed because she had nothing to do and no-one else really tried to hook her up, but it doesn't mean that Yuki's advices worked all that well specially when he was discarded pretty easily when a better choice come up.

Also do not forget he is getting crapped on without breaks, you know it works really well to reform ones character very quickly, heck it works really well to go for suicides way too as statistics show.

So I am not sure how much your talks about gradual progression are worth in this context because the gradual crapping is a sure good way for various unexpected developments from simple violence burst to much more complex character transformations.

If he would be having a normal life - then yeah you are right, it would be senseless to think of any sudden changes but in current setting with all that stress, I don't think your talks about gradual character development make much sense.

[Kikuchi]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

This attack on the website just proves that not everything is right with the story, because again - otherwise we would have a smooth sailing, like To-Love-Ru or something. But so far it looks like it is not pleasing its full audience and thats what manga should do because the audience is the reason why mangaka's have the job to begin with, and while otakus are an annoying part of it, it is no point to argue that they also spend more money on the stuff than the normal fans either, so its not good to loose their support specially when it turns negative.

I didn't read much of what you guys wrote these past days but stumbling on this I must ask : Are you serious?

Why can't a mangaka do what it pleases with its work? We're not even talking about a drastic change in a long-running series, but about details allowing the plot and characters to progress in its early stages, for Christ' sake.
What's this crap about "smooth sailing" and "pleasing its full audience"? Who are you to say that a manga which only begun should go this way because that manga did it?

I'm actually relieved that what I expected to be a generic shônen/harem manga is willing to display such details and distance itself from other works.
And we're talking about a high-school girl possibly having sex with her b/f and another one who got tricked by the guy she loved (supposedly, we don't know the details yet), which ARE interesting themes. If those otakus don't like it, well too bad. I bet they hated Bitter Virgin too (probably the most surprising read I had last year).

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

It made him being noticed. But as potential love interest? I am not so sure, she discarded bit too quickly for that, he seems more like a built up being a girls friend than her lover, she only noticed because she had nothing to do and no-one else really tried to hook her up, but it doesn't mean that Yuki's advices worked all that well specially when he was discarded pretty easily when a better choice come up.

Also do not forget he is getting crapped on without breaks, you know it works really well to reform ones character very quickly, heck it works really well to go for suicides way too as statistics show.

So I am not sure how much your talks about gradual progression are worth in this context because the gradual crapping is a sure good way for various unexpected developments from simple violence burst to much more complex character transformations.

If he would be having a normal life - then yeah you are right, it would be senseless to think of any sudden changes but in current setting with all that stress, I don't think your talks about gradual character development make much sense.

I'm pretty sure this was already said, but comparing Utsumi to Shou's sempai, who she has admired and known for at least one year, if not two, is too much. In the short amount of time they knew each other(what, less than a month?) he did very well, but with such short time, no matter how suave Utsumi would have been, Shou would have still did the same thing.

I still don't think he's been getting "crapped on without breaks". Again, the only thing that happened to him that was horrible was Shou going out with her sempai. Everything else, including him thinking Yuki had feelings for him and his grades are entirely his fault. Saying that's "getting crapped on" is like me saying I got crapped on because i went to a job interview and failed because I was looking like a bum.

He's hitting a few bumps right now, but his life is FAR from "stressful". Stressful is getting bullied at school and beaten up at home. Again only the Shou incident has been really tearing him up right now. That's it. His being friend-zoned by Yuki? He understands he misunderstood her intentions, shed a tear or two, and has moved on. His grades? Not that big of a deal. It might even be normal for him to get those kinds of grades. Simply looking at his expressions and demeanor, he's like "geh, this sucks", but nothing along the lines of it being stressful like "I can't do anything right, i'm worthless!". Now when you hear those words, THEN he's hit rock bottom, and I don't think that moment has come yet, if it will ever come. Until then, he's going to slowly improve himself a little bit at a time. If you can't see this, then you will always be asking why he acts like he does.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Kikuchi

I didn't read much of what you guys wrote these past days but stumbling on this I must ask : Are you serious?

Why can't a mangaka do what it pleases with its work? We're not even talking about a drastic change in a long-running series, but about details allowing the plot and characters to progress in its early stages, for Christ' sake.
What's this crap about "smooth sailing" and "pleasing its full audience"? Who are you to say that a manga which only begun should go this way because that manga did it?

I'm actually relieved that what I expected to be a generic shônen/harem manga is willing to display such details and distance itself from other works.
And we're talking about a high-school girl possibly having sex with her b/f and another one who got tricked by the guy she loved (supposedly, we don't know the details yet), which ARE interesting themes. If those otakus don't like it, well too bad. I bet they hated Bitter Virgin too (probably the most surprising read I had last year).

No one hated Bitter Virgin. Why? Because it was a seinen. Seinen comes with different expectations and different attitude. This is not a seinen, but a shounen and the mangaka is breaking those expectations to dust.

You say its new?

There are plenty of seinen doing similar stuff like this, it is only new because it is a seinen in a shounen magazine feeding off a shounen auditory. Thats why its new and has such the reaction, but it is hardly innovative by itself.

Its like coming to sing Manchester United songs in Chelsea bar. You are asking for trouble. Yes it is original because in Chelsea bar they always sing Chelsea songs and they are repetitive as hell, but this sort of originality is hardly all that great. It causes a lot of confrontation and the author is not Anno who loves confrontations and lives off it, she seems to be escaping those, but then why she created such confrontation to begin with.

Why she went to blues bar with Red-Devils attributes? If you go there you are asking for trouble, I don't think she was this naive to not know most simple things specially when we had Kannagi stuff going raging over smaller stuff.

The author can make whenever she likes but she always has to be prepared for the reaction specially if her creations seems to create confrontation by itself.

Maybe because it was not in WSJ she thought it was safe as it aimed for older audience but obviously it was not, as even older audience want their shounen dream fix rather than seinen realism.

frubam, he sort of blow ups with Yuki (with yuki it was more like a loud complaining/whining) and with Risa and that does look like its only beginning so it is definitely a stressful life here or else he would not start shouting around like that.

[Kikuchi]

I never said it was "new" perse. But that it was nice to see a little (reeeeeeeally little!) bit of what might reality be like in a harem manga. It doesn't change the fact that it's a shônen manga. What kind of people are crying and attacking people over the fact that a story isn't as stupid and generic as others?

I'm still persuaded you and the people shitting on the author website are totally over-blowing this.
The manga is still a harem and those details just showed us that the life of all those high school girls didn't revolve about the dumb protagonist. Which is a good thing.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Kikuchi

I never said it was "new" perse. But that it was nice to see a little (reeeeeeeally little!) bit of what might reality be like in a harem manga. It doesn't change the fact that it's a shônen manga. What kind of people are crying and attacking people over the fact that a story isn't as stupid and generic as others?

I'm still persuaded you and the people shitting on the author website are totally over-blowing this.
The manga is still a harem and those details just showed us that the life of all those high school girls didn't revolve about the dumb protagonist. Which is a good thing.

Again, when you come to cinema to watch comedy, you expect comedy, but then it starts showing tragedy instead. It is natural for some to want comedy.

Yes it is more stupid, has less depth etc. but some people just like those re-used slapstic comedies rather than the award winning tragedies...

This manga is still a harem?

I dont think you could make more ridiculous and unsupported statement than this. Just because it shows girls it is not a harem. Heck then all shows that show more than two females would be a harem for you.

Anyway a note for the future, just because I can see the reason for their dissatisfaction instead of blindly screaming how shitty they are right away, does not mean I am supporting the harassing of the author.

I just see the reason why they would be dissatisfied and see no problem in that. What I see the problem is going as far as to leash personal attacks on the mangaka (though that sounds bit too harsh, because comparing to Kannagi and Evangelion, this 'personal attack' looks like a children play really).

[Kikuchi]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

This manga is still a harem?

I dont think you could make more ridiculous and unsupported statement than this. Just because it shows girls it is not a harem. Heck then all shows that show more than two females would be a harem for you.

Spoiler for Flow of the manga up until now:

Guy goes after girl, is helped by a second girl, almost raped by a third and finally meet a fourth one at work which isn't here for show, obviously.

All that in 19 chapters.

COME ON.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Kikuchi

Spoiler for Flow of the manga up until now:

Guy goes after girl, is helped by a second girl, almost raped by a third and finally meet a fourth one at work which isn't here for show, obviously.

All that in 19 chapters.

COME ON.

Spoiler for stuff:

Luffy saves one girl from the bad side (Robin), with one of them has a special moment (Nami, the whole strawhat thing in Arlong Park) the older woman who is one of the seven sea kinds falls for him, amazon girl touches his 'golden balls', a princess for whom he saved her country, a pirate captain who now wants to be his bride (the one from the first ark who ate the devil fruit later and became beautiful).

Meaning One Piece - a harem?

You would be laughed to death for this in OP thread. I think you can be pretty much laughed to death for the statement about GE too.

He goes after a girl who has no real feelings to him, is in love with another guy, the girl that almost rapes him has also no feelings for him and has a love interest already, her friend keeps him friend-zoned while the girl who is not for show is just a mean bitch for him so far...

Really, GE is not a harem or else you would have to call harems and reversed harems the majority of the manga's released.

Call the shows that are really harems like Love Hina this way, but GE is not a harem so far, just because there are girls he interacts with does not mean it is a harem.

[frubam]

lol, how could ANYONE think this is a harem? The girls don't even crowd around the main char like a harem. Plus most harem anime/manga girls like the main char "in that way" for one reason or another, which in GE's case, no one sees Utsumi nowhere past a "friend".

[Slick_rick]

Well this manga never billed itself as a harem. It was always a ecchi romance manga. The author certainly never tried to pass it off as a harem and I doubt it will turn into one as it seems that there are only two real competitors and even then it looks like in fact it might just come down to Yuki in the end.

I still don't see why this issue of it "needing" to be a seinen is still being whined about. This for the most part has done a great job dealing with things that might people face as a teenagers. It so far hasn't gone into explicit details into any of them. They're side issues so far. Not every girl you met is going to be some perfect saint and you're most likely not going to pop out the vagina as a Casanova who attracts girls with no effort at all or have life easy. So far the main characters problems are not anything outlandish. We all have females and job problems in high school and beyond!

While some might be turned off by this, the actual strength of the manga, in my opinion, relies on it. No manga will ever be able to please everyone nor should it try to. It carves out it on fanbase and appeals to them. This is certainly trying to be a lot more realistic than the normal shounen without the explicit details you'd expect in a seinen. I applaud her for doing it.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Well this manga never billed itself as a harem. It was always a ecchi romance manga. The author certainly never tried to pass it off as a harem and I doubt it will turn into one as it seems that there are only two real competitors and even then it looks like in fact it might just come down to Yuki in the end.

I still don't see why this issue of it "needing" to be a seinen is still being whined about. This for the most part has done a great job dealing with things that might people face as a teenagers. It so far hasn't gone into explicit details into any of them. They're side issues so far. Not every girl you met is going to be some perfect saint and you're most likely not going to pop out the vagina as a Casanova who attracts girls with no effort at all or have life easy. So far the main characters problems are not anything outlandish. We all have females and job problems in high school and beyond!

While some might be turned off by this, the actual strength of the manga, in my opinion, relies on it. No manga will ever be able to please everyone nor should it try to. It carves out it on fanbase and appeals to them. This is certainly trying to be a lot more realistic than the normal shounen without the explicit details you'd expect in a seinen. I applaud her for doing it.

Well its the same as saying "I don't see the reason why comedy has to make people laugh. It should make them cry instead."

It is in a way original, but not all people like such 'original' surprises. When they come to see slapstick comedy they want the slapstick comedy, rather than noble prizes awarded drama or horror instead.

I think it has enough details to be counted as seinen.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Well its the same as saying "I don't see the reason why comedy has to make people laugh. It should make them cry instead."

It is in a way original, but not all people like such 'original' surprises. When they come to see slapstick comedy they want the slapstick comedy, rather than noble prizes awarded drama or horror instead.

I think it has enough details to be counted as seinen.

Why can't a comedy make you both laugh and cry?? A lot of comedy series do well at both in fact. Don't be silly I don't even understand what point you were trying to make with that.

And not a lot of people like cliches shoved down there throat ever time and do like original ideas. Once again you can't please everyone! I don't where this show ever billed itself to be pure slapstick comedy either. It certainly has comedy maybe not to "your" taste but it does have it mixed in with a lot other genres.

I think it fits fine into shonen. Its targeted towards teenage, especially virgins and people going through their first relationship. It might be a bit more realistic but I don't believe the shounen "demographic" has a restriction on realism. All that is required is that it is being aimed towards that age group which it certainly is. Most of the flack is probably coming from otaku who are in fact not even in that age group anymore so I don't see the problem with it being shounen at all. Just some people need to grow up.

[frubam]

really, I think its stupid to try to negate everything this manga is because of a simple label. You read it, and either you like the story or don't like the story. To say that a story is bad or good because it's generally named one label when its actually another shows how close-minded you(not referring to you specifically) are. I might go into a grocery store and buy something that says "Apple Juice", but even if its actually orange juice, I'm not gonna say "its bad" just because the label is different. If the actual contents of the product is bad, i'd be pissed off[even if the label was correct, mind you], but if it is good, i could care less. I feel that regardless of what its called, even if it was called a shoujo story, the quality is good enough for me to enjoy. Now if people read the story, and didn't like its contents, then that's fine, but all this talk of "its shounen, the story's not right" is just plain stupid.