Is it me or is there no real difference between black and white magic?
Spoiler for magic in ep4:
Both tend to end in large numbers of ppl getting killed, or 1 person getting killed many many times....
What are you talking about? Black is clearly the corruption that is the sole cause of evil in this world, it's like having the devil on your shoulder D:
I'm gonna talk a little about means and ends. Ends meaning your end goals, means are your ways of attaining your end goals. So we say that bad magic has the end goal of alleviating one's suffering. The means are by screwing someone else over. Good ends, bad bad means. Now, good magic has the end goal of... surprise, alleviating one's suffering. Means, when push comes to shove, mass murder. There is therefore no difference between goals and methods used.
We can say that Ange wishes for world peace and happiness through her good magic, but the only way she can accomplish this is through the EXACT same means that Beatrice uses the execute her family... Now, it is true that this was in absolute self-defense, no court on earth would argue against that. Hoever, Ange is a murderer from the moment she decides to kill or spare Kasumi based on whether she will accept magic as real. Isn't this basically the Spanish Magic Inquisition here?
And isn't this exactly what Beatrice did to Battler for his rejection of her magic?
We can say that Ange wishes for world peace and happiness through her good magic, but the only way she can accomplish this is through the EXACT same means that Beatrice uses the execute her family... Now, it is true that this was in absolute self-defense, no court on earth would argue against that. Hoever, Ange is a murderer from the moment she decides to kill or spare Kasumi based on whether she will accept magic as real. Isn't this basically the Spanish Magic Inquisition here?
And isn't this exactly what Beatrice did to Battler for his rejection of her magic?
Spoiler for chapter 18:
I'm not sure I agree with everything you say, but you do bring up a good point. This 'sudden revelation' that Ange has is very contradictory, and doesn't really add up. It sounds like, desperate and torn apart as she was, she tried to find some purpose for her life, and ended up grasping at straws to do it. Seriously, this girl has some serious emotional problems, so I can understand that a bit. Plus, we do know that she actually at least considered murder at the academy. Even if we can see the events in her life which probably made her like this, it doesn't change the fact that Ange is a much darker character that she sometimes looks (well, we are seeing every scene with her through her eyes, so they're probably heavily biased to her favor).
Spoiler for chapter 19:
It's enough to make me wonder whether Ange really did give up her life by saying who she was in red. We never actually see her reject Lambda's offer to Lambda's face. And since we saw 'all of her memories flow into Battler', it makes me wonder whether the Ange scenes we saw were actually nothing more that what Battler saw through Ange's eyes...which could have been tampered with by either Lambda or Ange herself. Certainly, if you change a few details about her school life or that final scene with Kasumi, or even just leave a few scenes out, she could be a very disturbed person indeed. Well, just a theory...
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers
Completely agree. Ryukichi's a smart man, I don't think he'd leave contradictions like this except on purpose, which ties in to the idea that the narrators of umineko are unreliable.
Note that the stakes said that they wouldn't kill her classmates, not because it was morally wrong, but because they couldn't interfere with the real world. If i remember correctly, Sakutarou and Maria didn't exactly say killing was wrong. If we take the rational human view, which we must because we live in a magic-less world, that's her subconscious saying, we won't kill not because we think it's wrong, but merely because we don't have the ability, at least not right now. Pretty disturbing and high school massacre-ish. If she'd had a gun at that point, plenty ppl would definitely be dead.
In any case, if true/white magic can be used by a person who is a murderer, to carry out murder for its cause(death due to disbelief), is it truly good magic? Or is all magic alike? Its users consider themselves no longer human and deal with the rest of the human race as lesser lifeforms. Sounds like certain religions:P
Last edited by vorpal83; 2009-06-01 at 18:30.
Reason: spelling
I just thought of it as Anji being a nutty person. Her views on... well, everything is just so warped. And I think she just wants to find justification in her actions.
I just thought of it as Anji being a nutty person. Her views on... well, everything is just so warped. And I think she just wants to find justification in her actions.
Spoiler for Reply:
I don't think it's that. She's just desperate. You have to imagine it in her own shoes: her entire family, except Eva who she disliked, died. The survivor mentally and emotionally abused her until death, and even set out to make her (Ange's) life continuously miserable after death. Ange had to go to this private school and was seen as a weirdo because of the event itself and she's overall depressed. If you think about it her and Maria are very much alike: both are looking for an escape to make them happy, because their real life is awful and they can't control it. The idea of using magic to make everything better probably makes them believe that they actually have some extent of power and control over their own lives.
Of course her views are a little warped, but she's looking for the truth. Perhaps at the end of it all the truth just becomes so hard to find, or she's like Battler: she doesn't want to believe someone from her family could murder everyone, even if it was Eva.
This is another theory on Kumasawa and Gohda's death.
I'm suprised I didn't think of this before now, because it is similar to one of the theories I made about Episode 3.
Also, I still think Kyrie is the culprit, however, this theory could end up working out with anyone.
If, while everyone was running from the culprit, someone might have made it to the shedhouse. Gohda and Kumasawa would open the door to hurry and let them in, however, then the culprit could catch up and shoot them.
As for the key, Battler never tested it so it might not be the shed's key. It could have been switched out by the culprit. This is actually worked off another idea someone said to me, about George not really giving Kumasawa and Gohda the key to the shed.
I don't think it's that. She's just desperate. You have to imagine it in her own shoes: her entire family, except Eva who she disliked, died. The survivor mentally and emotionally abused her until death, and even set out to make her (Ange's) life continuously miserable after death. Ange had to go to this private school and was seen as a weirdo because of the event itself and she's overall depressed. If you think about it her and Maria are very much alike: both are looking for an escape to make them happy, because their real life is awful and they can't control it. The idea of using magic to make everything better probably makes them believe that they actually have some extent of power and control over their own lives.
Of course her views are a little warped, but she's looking for the truth. Perhaps at the end of it all the truth just becomes so hard to find, or she's like Battler: she doesn't want to believe someone from her family could murder everyone, even if it was Eva.
It seems you and I are saying the same thing. You're basically explaining it in more detail.
Oh shi...I just realised something after replaying ep 3...
Spoiler for ep 4 spoiler duh:
When it was stated by Beato that Battler wasn't really Asumu's son, I was really confused...but after getting to the part in ep 3 when Kyrie was fighting with Leviathan it was stated that Kyrie had a son the same time as Asumu but unfortunately hers was a miscarriage...but what if the fact was it was Asumu's baby that died and Battler's real mother was in fact Kyrie but through some mix up Battler was given to Asumu instead? No idea if this will play a role later on but something interesting to take not of...
Oh shi...I just realised something after replaying ep 3...
Spoiler for ep 4 spoiler duh:
When it was stated by Beato that Battler wasn't really Asumu's son, I was really confused...but after getting to the part in ep 3 when Kyrie was fighting with Leviathan it was stated that Kyrie had a son the same time as Asumu but unfortunately hers was a miscarriage...but what if the fact was it was Asumu's baby that died and Battler's real mother was in fact Kyrie but through some mix up Battler was given to Asumu instead? No idea if this will play a role later on but something interesting to take not of...
Spoiler for Reply, EP 4:
Yeah, that theory is actually pretty popular. It would also explain why both Battler and Ange have red hair, despite having different mothers (unless such a color is dominant in Rudolf's genes, but I doubt that considering the hair colors of his siblings). There's another theory that Jun could possibly be Kyrie's son from Rudolf who was switched out.
Spoiler for Red Text Stuff:
Although I have a personal theory of my own. I think it would be easy for Beatrice to do something like that if the Battler she was playing with wasn't Battler anymore. Think about it - there are two Battlers. The Battler in the Meta World could have possibly become like Bernkastel - although he resembles the appearance of a certain human, he himself is no longer that person or that human. Like how ANGE is no longer Ange Ushiromiya after becoming a piece for the game. It makes you wonder: if ANGE couldn't have her family back in her world, then what will happen when Meta-Battler finally wins? Does he merge back with Battler or does only Battler go back and not him - considering that Meta-Battler is technically suppose to be Battler from EP 1, it could be a similar situation as ANGE.
Although I have a personal theory of my own. I think it would be easy for Beatrice to do something like that if the Battler she was playing with wasn't Battler anymore. Think about it - there are two Battlers. The Battler in the Meta World could have possibly become like Bernkastel - although he resembles the appearance of a certain human, he himself is no longer that person or that human. Like how ANGE is no longer Ange Ushiromiya after becoming a piece for the game. It makes you wonder: if ANGE couldn't have her family back in her world, then what will happen when Meta-Battler finally wins? Does he merge back with Battler or does only Battler go back and not him - considering that Meta-Battler is technically suppose to be Battler from EP 1, it could be a similar situation as ANGE.
Spoiler for end of ep4:
I'll have to disagree with you on that one.
I'll refer to Meta-Battler as Battler' (prime)
Ange says:
Only Kinzo's grandson has the right to play Beatrice.
Battler' is not Asumu's son.
Battler' is Rudolph's son and is therefore Kinzo's grandson.(point conceded by Beatrice)
So that means no matter what, Battler' is still his father's son, just not Asumu's.
Ange says:
Only Kinzo's grandson has the right to play Beatrice.
Battler' is not Asumu's son.
Battler' is Rudolph's son and is therefore Kinzo's grandson.(point conceded by Beatrice)
So that means no matter what, Battler' is still his father's son, just not Asumu's.
Spoiler for Reply:
Yes, but it's like with Rika and Bernkastel. Bernkastel is considered a part of Rika, but is an external part that can be considered different. So Meta-Battler might have the same family as Battler does and is still considered part of Battler, but technically he is not Battler anymore. If he was Battler he would be on Rokkenjima, watching people die without a clue as to what is going on. Meta-Battler is an external part of Battler that exists off the board, so therefore he is Battler but at the same time is not Battler.
Using Ange again as an example: Ange's family is the Ushiromiya family, her mother and father are Kyrie and Rudolf and her older half-brother is Battler, but she is not THE Ange Ushiromiya - she is an external entity off the game board. Although one can consider her to be Ange Ushiromiya, at the very same time you can't consider her to be Ange Ushiromiya.
I am who I am; Frederica Bernkastel.
Furude Rika and Frederica are different. Shame on you if you thought so.
Your argument is that Beatrice can say that Battler' is not Battler Ushiromiya if he is both Battler and not Battler. Therefore Battler is and is not Ayumu's son. Even if it is stated in red that he is not Ayumu's son.
Now I'll prove that Red truth is infinitely true, and therefore cannot be contradicted. If it wasn't so, Bernkastel would have told him already. I come to this conclusion form the following.
I'm gonna call Ayumu's Battler BATTLER for now.
Beatrice says Battler' is not BATTLER, Ayumu's son.
Battler is Kinzo's grandson.(red)
But Battler' CANNOT say that he is Ayumu's son in red!
Your argument that Battler' is and is not Battler only holds if Battler can say that he is Ayumu's son.
IF Battler' is Battler and is not Battler, both should be sayable in red, regardless of whether the person saying it is a witch or not.
So now, If ANGE says that Battler' is her brother, Battler's sister is Ange, and ANGE is Ange. it cannot be contradicted by saying that Battler' is not Battler. In fact, ANGE should be Battler''' 's sister from game 3. If she can still say that Battler' is her brother regardless, then we have to conclude that both Battler' = Battler''' = Battler, despite all that happens.
Therefore Battler' is Battler and it cannot be said that he is and is not Battler. So what must be eliminated is the false fact that Battler' is Ayumu's son.
Some kind of different case seems to hold for Bernkastel. I'm not sure how it works. Frederika Bernkastel is not Rika. Frederika Bernkastel may not be Bernkastel. Bernkastel may be Rika or maybe not... Of course, Frederika could be lying, but we have no red truth there to play with.
I am who I am; Frederica Bernkastel.
Furude Rika and Frederica are different. Shame on you if you thought so.
Your argument is that Beatrice can say that Battler' is not Battler Ushiromiya if he is both Battler and not Battler. Therefore Battler is and is not Ayumu's son. Even if it is stated in red that he is not Ayumu's son.
Now I'll prove that Red truth is infinitely true, and therefore cannot be contradicted. If it wasn't so, Bernkastel would have told him already. I come to this conclusion form the following.
I'm gonna call Ayumu's Battler BATTLER for now.
Beatrice says Battler' is not BATTLER, Ayumu's son.
Battler is Kinzo's grandson.(red)
But Battler' CANNOT say that he is Ayumu's son in red!
Your argument that Battler' is and is not Battler only holds if Battler can say that he is Ayumu's son.
IF Battler' is Battler and is not Battler, both should be sayable in red, regardless of whether the person saying it is a witch or not.
So now, If ANGE says that Battler' is her brother, Battler's sister is Ange, and ANGE is Ange. it cannot be contradicted by saying that Battler' is not Battler. In fact, ANGE should be Battler''' 's sister from game 3. If she can still say that Battler' is her brother regardless, then we have to conclude that both Battler' = Battler''' = Battler, despite all that happens.
Therefore Battler' is Battler and it cannot be said that he is and is not Battler. So what must be eliminated is the false fact that Battler' is Ayumu's son.
Some kind of different case seems to hold for Bernkastel. I'm not sure how it works. Frederika Bernkastel is not Rika. Frederika Bernkastel may not be Bernkastel. Bernkastel may be Rika or maybe not... Of course, Frederika could be lying, but we have no red truth there to play with.
O_o
Spoiler for Reply:
I never said anything about him being Asumu's son. Asumu is certainly not his mother, but Meta-Battler and Battler are still two different entities in the same being. Same with ANGE and Ange. My theory is that Beatrice was able to mess around with Battler so easily because she is facing Meta-Battler and not Battler. If she would come up to Battler and tell him in red that Asumu wasn't his mother then he would just ignore it because he doesn't know this crazy lady. Meta-Battler basically lets Beatrice do this to him and accepts it as truth.
As far as what she says for 'Battler sinned', she didn't even say that in red. She just made the theory that Battler's mother is not Asumu, therefore Battler is not Kinzo's grandson. When I saw that part although I'm sure it was shocking to learn it was an easily breakable theory, because Asumu isn't directly related to Kinzo. So even if she wasn't his mom Battler should have just realized sooner that as long as Rudolf is his father then he still holds the right as Kinzo's grandchild.
Basically Beatrice's entire theory was created with 2 purposes - to completely screw with Meta-Battler on an emotional level, so that he wouldn't be able to fight her at midnight October 5th 1986 and to get rid of ANGE. Putting it that way it makes sense why Beatrice showed up as a human on Rokkenjima and got all pissed off at Kinzo for pretty much making the entire ceremony go 5 times faster than usual - she had to do what she did to slow down Battler enough, because now he had an entire day to figure out things before their battle.
When I say Battler and Battler are the same and not I mean Meta-Battler and Battler. Meta-Battler is an entity from the Battler we know - not the Battler that is Asumu's real son. So Meta-Battler and Battler's mother is not Asumu, but that doesn't change the fact that Meta-Battler is a similar entity towards Battler as ANGE is to Ange or how Bernkastel is to Rika. Yet, if Meta-Battler is in a way different than you can say he has no mother period. He only stated that him and Ange are brother and sister be relationship, because Ange isn't his direct relative.
When Beatrice states "You are not born from Asumu" (or something similar to that sentence) though I still wonder how she even knows this. Asumu died six years before her game even began, yet she somehow knows that Battler's mother isn't Asumu. It makes you wonder about how exact this statement even is :U I accept it as truth for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ryukushi pulled something on us again.
Man the answer arcs better answer all these questions about Asumu and stuff :U
No, Beatrice said in Red that Battler commited a sin. She even used a "because of your sin, people die." at some point, not to be confused by Asumu's Battler.
No, Beatrice said in Red that Battler commited a sin. She even used a "because of your sin, people die." at some point, not to be confused by Asumu's Battler.
Spoiler for EP 4:
Really? XD -hasn't played EP 4 in forever-
Maybe it has something to do with Rokkenjima then, considering the people die :U But I bet Bern or someone will give a speech in the next few episodes saying "What is sin" or something XD
Battler Ushiromiya is guilty. Your sin caused people to die.Your sin, caused the humans on this island to die in large numbers. No one escapes, all die.
In any case, it's definitely Battler', not BATTLER. Not some kind of tsukihime scenario :P
Thank god, that's a lot easier for me to work with. Battler' can't say that Asumu is his mother. Battler can say that Ange and Rudolph are his relatives. Therefore red truth only allows for genetic bonds, emotional bonds are not allowed. Therefore Battler' and ANGE are real brother and sister, not emotional.
Since Battler' and ANGE are from different worlds, physically Battler' = Battler''' and ANGE = Ange. Since Ange = ANGE therefore Battler ''' must = Battler. Therefore Battler' must physically = Battler
2009-06-01, 08:56
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