(L) Shingeki no Bahamut ~Virgin Soul~ (S2)

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Hated how they had Favaro basically try to convince us Charioce did nothing wrong.

Really?

Favaro just pointed out that Charioce didn't order Nina or El's execution.

Nina already saw Charioce's deeds close up more than once, so why would pointing out those facts to her convince her that he was a good person all of a sudden?

[zalem]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Yeah we all saw this coming the plan is still dumb\



2) Why construct your weapon so far from your target? Assuming Bahamut chases he is going to devastate the country side and the capital before Charoice fires a shot.

...

Why is Favaro making excuses for Charoice? Charoice put him in jail for hard labor for no good reason? And tortured him? Why would he be pro Charoice? Oh right we need to justify this disgusting ship. Not to say Favaro doesn't have a motive to let Charoice try this insanity, he can use it to save Amira but it doesn't appear he is spewing said justifications for that since this is post Nina trying to kill Char.

Yeah, yet another thing that makes no sense. Why build the weapon so far from Eibos? Why the hell would you want to lure Baha back to your damn city? The damage will be massive even if you do kill it. And keep in mind he didn't even evacuate said city before he want off to Eibos, those people ended up getting evacuated by the soldiers in charge at the city currently and they did it because Jeanne was coming. So he was planning on luring Baha back to his city full of people? O_O Wtf...

And if you are planning to do this great thing, why antagonize all these different groups? It's stupid. Favaro was making excuses and crap, but they don't hold water. The fact is if Char wasn't an ass to begin with neither the gods nor the demons would be attacking at this moment. But Fav is all like "of course Char didn't do these very specific things! It would cause a war and he doesn't want that right now! He just wants to defeat Bahamut!" Um, yeah but had he not done all the crap leading up to now there wouldn't be a war. It's all very lame and rather disappointing. Shame because the series up to this point is quite good. Maybe they can somehow salvage this. One can hope.

[haseo0408]

This is insane ! Why are writters of this show trying to sell us Chariose as a Tragic hero!? The guy is monster! I kind of see the logic they will use use to redeem him: he found out about Bahamut returning so he stole the tablets from the gods to build the magitek nessesary to destroy the dragon god for good, knowing the gods would never help him use that dangerous magic and the demons would never help him becuase how their leaders are. You know what I think of that logic? Bulshit! There is no garantee that that magitek is going to kill Bahamut in the first place! That dragon has survive things taht could the entire pantheon of Dungeons and Dragons several times over; the only times Bahamut has ever been stopped is when gods, demons and humans worked together to defeat him. This is a new level of selfishness, who the hel does this guy think he is? thinking he can kill that eldritch abomination all by himself?.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Really?

Favaro just pointed out that Charioce didn't order Nina or El's execution.

Nina already saw Charioce's deeds close up more than once, so why would pointing out those facts to her convince her that he was a good person all of a sudden?

Nina was blaming Charioce for El's death and she thought he didn't love her because he ordered her to be killed. Favaro was trying to absolve him of these crimes in order to redeem him in Nina's eyes. And it seems to have worked perfectly. My issue with it is that it doesn't look like Favaro said that for Nina's sake, it felt more like the writers attempting to find excuses for Charioce in an attempt to paint him as a tragic hero rather than the anti-villain he actually is.

And the even bigger issue, as I explained in my post, is that Favaro's logic is very much flawed. Jeanne is the one who is actually correct, Charioce is very much responsible for the death of her son. Yet it feels like the show is telling us Favaro is right and that Jeanne's grief is making her act irrationally.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Nina was blaming Charioce for El's death and she thought he didn't love her because he ordered her to be killed. Favaro was trying to absolve him of these crimes in order to redeem him in Nina's eyes.

Again, Nina has seen all of Charioce's deeds. She heard everything that Jeanne said, and she knew that he was already after El even before that. Unless Nina is some sort of idiot, how does telling her he didn't order El's death this time absolve him of his previous crimes?

If you told someone that a murderer didn't actually kill someone today, would that absolve them of the other murders they committed?

And the even bigger issue, as I explained in my post, is that Favaro's logic is very much flawed. Jeanne is the one who is actually correct, Charioce is very much responsible for the death of her son.

And again, why would Favaro saying he didn't order El's death this time suddenly make him not guilty for what he did previously?

[seiftis]

Up until now, i still feel Nina's character serves no purpose.

[shmaster]

I can under stand why Charioce built his weapon in his own city.
It actually make sense in someways.

But "bring Bahamut back home!" is truly just too much.
You can't get get anymore stupid than that....

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

I can under stand why Charioce built his weapon in his own city.
It actually make sense in someways.

But "bring Bahamut back home!" is truly just too much.
You can't get get anymore stupid than that....

Maybe he's hoping Bahamut will get rid of Jeanne's army for him before he kills it?

[ValvraveTruth]

Relax my fellow member, this kind of Charioce discussions can go many ways depend on where you gonna stand. Just like what Charioce has said so himself and showed in different episode, he is doing the evil things like killing angels and enslaving demons for the sake of mankind on top and slaying Bahamut as an end goal. His actions are very much understandable, but it is not encouraged and it is not the only way to do things to achieve a certain goal. Regardless of how you think Charioce's action deem just or evil to you, without doubt that many many lives have lost. Not just angels & demons, yes the human lives also lost in all incidents and wars caused by Charioce's choices.

In regarding to Alessand being the one who started the war, half right & half wrong. Its understandable to blame everything on Alessand for the war, but there are many things to understand than you think. Firstly the seeds of hatred & revenge were planted by Charioce's action and choices, those who have suffered from Charioce's rule will one day come back again. So regardless of Alessand kill El or not, a rebellion or war bound to happen sooner or later. Alessand's d1ck move only speed up the process, the seeds exploded.

In regards to the current rebellion and Jeanne's action. As you can see the armies behind Jeanne all suffered from Charioce's rule, not only angels & demons but even the humans as well. Here is the question of will Jeanne stop the army after knowing her son's death was not commanded by charioce himself? She will not stop, the answers pretty much explained to Kaiser herself. The whole origin here is not because of her son killed, its the violence act Charioce has caused, the evil intentions against many. That is why she said the evil intention against El is also a truth, basically meant Charioce has done the evil deeds and must be paid back, karma to be short. Jeanne final slogan, stop the reckless act of mad king Charioce and bring peace to the world again. Classic story of the rebellion saint and a mad king.

Is Charioce resposible for El's death eventhou Alessand the one fck things up? Yes of course as I have answered why mostly above. Charioce's action and choices have lead to the current situation the story are in now. I know this kind of reasoning is unfair, but think about it if Charioce never start the war in episode 1 in the first place, will onyx knight be created to hired mercenary to kill Nina or Alessand having a reason to kill El? Well what I'm mad about is Charioce has known what his onyx knight up to in assasinating Nina, yet he never try to stop them.

The main plothole is Charioce way of dealing with Bahamut, there should be many ways in dealing with it instead of killing angels and enslaving demons. After the Bahamut incident in season 1, both angels and demons lost many things big time. So human standing should slightly up a little, a table discussion is actually possible. Aside from whether demons participate or not(at least Lucifer is intelligent), the angels may be prideful but they will still join in just to slay Bahamut. Bahamut is a threat to all 3 factions, I am impressed at how Charioce can find a way to slay it when it took many gods and demon king just to seal it. Anyway Charioce in the end choose to be a realist who doesn't trust cooperation and always want to stay on top.

[Skaddix]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Nina was blaming Charioce for El's death and she thought he didn't love her because he ordered her to be killed. Favaro was trying to absolve him of these crimes in order to redeem him in Nina's eyes. And it seems to have worked perfectly. My issue with it is that it doesn't look like Favaro said that for Nina's sake, it felt more like the writers attempting to find excuses for Charioce in an attempt to paint him as a tragic hero rather than the anti-villain he actually is.

And the even bigger issue, as I explained in my post, is that Favaro's logic is very much flawed. Jeanne is the one who is actually correct, Charioce is very much responsible for the death of her son. Yet it feels like the show is telling us Favaro is right and that Jeanne's grief is making her act irrationally.

Well there is that but also on a personal level why was Favaro arrested subjected to torture and then hard labor? Since the onyx knights personally went to grab him that seems like the order came from Charioce. So why the frak is Favaro fine with Charioce?

[zalem]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Nina was blaming Charioce for El's death and she thought he didn't love her because he ordered her to be killed. Favaro was trying to absolve him of these crimes in order to redeem him in Nina's eyes. And it seems to have worked perfectly.

Meh, thing is Char still gave the okay to kill her though. The onyx knights went to him and told him they wanted to kill the red dragon and he didn't bat an eye and said okay. That's just as bad as an direct order to kill. Of course he didn't chime in to clarify that point when Favaro was babbling all those excuses.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Again, Nina has seen all of Charioce's deeds. She heard everything that Jeanne said, and she knew that he was already after El even before that. Unless Nina is some sort of idiot, how does telling her he didn't order El's death this time absolve him of his previous crimes?

If you told someone that a murderer didn't actually kill someone today, would that absolve them of the other murders they committed?

Then why did they even have Favaro say that in the first place? The writers were clearly trying to mend Charioce and Nina's relationship with those lines. We can't know for sure until the next episode, but I'm almost certain it worked. Otherwise, what was even the point of the whole exchange?

Of course none of that absolve him of his other crimes, but Nina didn't mind them all that much before. She went on a date with him in spite of everything she knew not even that long ago. It's the precise two points Favaro addressed that made her go over the edge.

[Albel VII]

You know, I'm really curious why is Charioce's team so sure that they can kill Bahamut. Sure, that ancient magic thing is powerful against demons and gods, but it's not that effective against humans for example, so why are they so sure it's gonna work well against Bahamut?

Also, the migthy ancients who had that technology completely vanished for some reason. Shouldn't this be at least a little bit concerning? I mean, we have a gigantic super powerful beast which is expert in destroying entire civilisations so I don't think it would be that unreasonable to think that the ancients are no longer around because they've been wiped out by Bahamut eons ago.

[scififan]

This is the most boring episode in Virgin Soul so far; all other episodes have some type of excitement. This episode is missing something.

In summary,

1. apologists

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those miraculous Charoice apologists

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2. men with a simple reason

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3. a pokemon card can still caused misery for ten years

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4. Jeanne is not Zeus and Odin, and who can stop Bahamut now?

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Just in case somebody doesn't know, Bahamut is a giant sea dweller in Arabic, and its name comes from Hebrew for a giant land dweller known as Behmoth, but JRPG cast Bahamut as a giant dragon.

[Incest Emblem]

The change of Bahamut into a dragon is, at least, not the JRPGs' fault.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bahamut

[MgMaster]

So like, why immediately assume this is all to redeem Chaorice? Why can't he still be a racist asshole that acts in the interest of humanity & humanity only, tho' by slaying Bahamut he's doing the angels & demons a favor as well by mere coincidence, nothing more.

He can be a hero for some of his people & a villain to everyone else at the same time.

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

So like, why immediately assume this is all to redeem Chaorice? Why can't he still be a racist asshole that acts in the interest of humanity & humanity only, tho' by slaying Bahamut he's doing the angels & demons a favor as well by mere coincidence, nothing more.

He can be a hero for some of his people & a villain to everyone else at the same time.

Charioce has no redeption after coming this far, it matters not what was he planing! This is all insanity but what pisses me off the most is the fact the writters are trying to sell us this guy as a tragic hero, it looks all so forced! This guy is a monster and Nina is completely irrelevant to the story at this point, worse yet, I think I´m starting to hate her with all her ctrazy love for Charioce.

[Skaddix]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

So like, why immediately assume this is all to redeem Chaorice? Why can't he still be a racist asshole that acts in the interest of humanity & humanity only, tho' by slaying Bahamut he's doing the angels & demons a favor as well by mere coincidence, nothing more.

He can be a hero for some of his people & a villain to everyone else at the same time.

Because they have the two main heroes from S1 sucking his ****.

Kasier has always been lawful stupid but Favaro it boggles the mind.


The problem is he could have gotten most of what he wanted done with no slavery, genocide, etc.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Albel VII

You know, I'm really curious why is Charioce's team so sure that they can kill Bahamut. Sure, that ancient magic thing is powerful against demons and gods, but it's not that effective against humans for example, so why are they so sure it's gonna work well against Bahamut?

Also, the migthy ancients who had that technology completely vanished for some reason. Shouldn't this be at least a little bit concerning? I mean, we have a gigantic super powerful beast which is expert in destroying entire civilisations so I don't think it would be that unreasonable to think that the ancients are no longer around because they've been wiped out by Bahamut eons ago.

And...this was a book in Martinet's possession of all people. Why would anyone be trusting of anything in Martinet's possession? I would think that it was a plant by him in case his plan didn't work the first time.

Martinet could shapeshift. *puts tinfoil hat on* What if he's still alive? *take tinfoil hat off*

[zalem]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

So like, why immediately assume this is all to redeem Chaorice? Why can't he still be a racist asshole that acts in the interest of humanity & humanity only, tho' by slaying Bahamut he's doing the angels & demons a favor as well by mere coincidence, nothing more.

He can be a hero for some of his people & a villain to everyone else at the same time.

Because that's the way the show is selling it. It totally feels like the "tragic hero" route. And Nina will forgive him because he's just such a great guy. He's just "misunderstood." Why Nina likes him to begin with boggles the mind. And it seems like she only really got upset with him because of the El thing and his order to have her killed, which Favaro conveniently gave excuses for. So she's either an idiot or has some really messed up morals.