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Old 2013-10-21, 21:56   Link #31341
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
You guys should've stayed so. Then again, Yuan was shit and he should've died earlier. Kang Youwei could've saved the monarchy and also China from warlordism.
You serious?

My ancestors are the fine example of Chinese aristocracy. Backstabbing, switching sides then finally running when everything goes to a head.

At least the Koreans and Taiwanese duke it out in the house instead of buying men and horses to blow each other out of their territory. I don't remember any problem being fixed that way in favour of both sides.
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Old 2013-10-21, 23:11   Link #31342
Ridwan
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Countries that retain their monarchy more often have better track record in economic and political development then those which had overthrown theirs. Look at UK, Sweden, or Japan. While countries like Brazil suffered a setback from overthrow of their monarchy which they haven't really recovered from until today. Ditto France. The benefit of having a pet monarchy to be adored by the populace has been often underestimated.

Retaining monarchy would've done wonders to China in the long run, provided the right man is doing it(in fact, only the right man could have). Kang Youwei was maybe a xenophobic asshole, but that couldn't be helped back then, and he was the most level headed and experienced figure around to keep the fragile ship from splintering apart.

Even I wouldn't mind so much living under the reign of Queen Beatrix provided we're Australia independent. We'll be the wagging tail anyway.
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Old 2013-10-21, 23:15   Link #31343
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Countries that retain their monarchy more often have better track record in economic and political development then those which had overthrown theirs. Look at UK, Sweden, or Japan. While countries like Brazil suffered a setback from overthrow of their monarchy which they haven't really recovered from until today. Ditto France. The benefit of having a pet monarchy to be adored by the populace has been often underestimated.

Retaining monarchy would've done wonders to China in the long run, provided the right man is doing it. Kang Youwei was maybe a xenophobic asshole, but that couldn't be helped back then, and he was the most level headed and experienced figure around.

Even I wouldn't mind so much living under the reign of Queen Beatrix provided we're Australia independent.
What about Nepal?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-21, 23:21   Link #31344
Ridwan
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They failed to change. And it's a minority case at any rate.
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Old 2013-10-21, 23:44   Link #31345
ArchmageXin
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"track record in economic and political development then those which had overthrown theirs"

Can you define that?
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Old 2013-10-22, 00:07   Link #31346
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
"track record in economic and political development then those which had overthrown theirs"

Can you define that?
My head tells me that there is a stark difference between Western, Mideastern, Eastern and Asian monarchies. Given that China has always been a gigantic landmass like what Rome and the Ottoman is, their successes as an empire would have been based on CERTAIN factors.

Maybe that is the track record he is talking about.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-22, 00:20   Link #31347
Ridwan
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Successful liberal democratic constitutional monarchies do require large middle class population. It's essential to not having its growth interrupted and setback. Frankly, for a large part an existing monarchy is just an indication of a longterm stability and continuity. But it also has important functions, too. Just ask Australia about what happened when they got a shut down back in '70s.
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Old 2013-10-22, 00:35   Link #31348
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Successful liberal democratic constitutional monarchies do require large middle class population. It's essential to not having its growth interrupted and setback. Frankly, for a large part an existing monarchy is just an indication of a longterm stability and continuity. But it also has important functions, too. Just ask Australia about what happened when they got a shut down back in '70s.
I don't remember the Medibank fiasco having anything to do with Queen Liz.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-22, 02:23   Link #31349
Ridwan
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Only indirectly. The Governor General did the firing of the entire cabinet. He represented the queen nevertheless, and it shows how the system has a function even without the said queen giving a damn. And that's not counting the fundamental role of monarchy as the national rallying point. It's often underestimated how effective of a cushion it is in the face of possible political crises. In the end, people need something "pure" to look up when there's nothing else, and nothing beats the effectiveness and adaptability of a long-established (non-temporal) monarchy in this regard.
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Old 2013-10-22, 04:59   Link #31350
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Countries that retain their monarchy more often have better track record in economic and political development then those which had overthrown theirs. Look at UK, Sweden, or Japan. While countries like Brazil suffered a setback from overthrow of their monarchy which they haven't really recovered from until today. Ditto France. The benefit of having a pet monarchy to be adored by the populace has been often underestimated.
You are mixing everything in one pot, that doesn't work like that, Japan and UK have politicians equal as France in term of moral, and in term of economic, we will have to define each other what is having a "good record" so that we can argue, are you talking about unemployment rate? GDP? Debt level?

Above all, here is the best counter example : Spain.
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Old 2013-10-22, 05:13   Link #31351
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Builders of Obama's health website saw red flags
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-22-04-32-05

Chris Christie gay marriage move stirs GOP
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-22-04-29-10
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Old 2013-10-22, 08:06   Link #31352
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Above all, here is the best counter example : Spain.
Since reimplementing their monarchy Spain has been growing not only economically but in all other aspects and the actual king helped avert a crisis that IMO was very similar to the actual crisis in Egypt (everybody feared another civil war when Franco died). The actual economical crisis is just a bump in the road and it is not limited to Spain (the whole Eurozone is in economical trouble, but Spain will probably be the first to restructure their economy and return to healthy growth in a few years down the road).

I understand that french people have been indoctrinated from a young age against the idea of a monarchy as an actual form of government, but IMO it is but constitutional monarchies are but another form of government.
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Old 2013-10-22, 09:12   Link #31353
Ridwan
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Absolute Monarchy I grant you, it's bad. Then again, usually it's in place in countries that don't have much in way of democratic tradition nor requirements for one. France certainly had it bad since it didn't go constitutional when the time called for it. It wasn't because its last king was a tyrant though. Rather, he was a wuss who didn't use the wave of social turmoil to bury the cancer that was French landed gentry, so he got swept instead.
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Old 2013-10-22, 09:23   Link #31354
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
I understand that french people have been indoctrinated from a young age against the idea of a monarchy as an actual form of government, but IMO it is but constitutional monarchies are but another form of government.
Constitutional monarchies in Europe are simply parliamentary democracies with a more ornamental head of state. The monarchy itself has little or nothing to do with government. The main divide is between parliamentary and presidential systems. Even then political stability is often tied to the voting system, equal representation or first past the post.
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Old 2013-10-22, 09:57   Link #31355
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Absolute Monarchy I grant you, it's bad. Then again, usually it's in place in countries that don't have much in way of democratic tradition nor requirements for one. France certainly had it bad since it didn't go constitutional when the time called for it. It wasn't because its last king was a tyrant though. Rather, he was a wuss who didn't use the wave of social turmoil to bury the cancer that was French landed gentry, so he got swept instead.
Alright, let's set up institutions to train ourselves some "Philosopher Kings" .. get at it!

Plato's Republic will rise!
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Old 2013-10-22, 10:19   Link #31356
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Alright, let's set up institutions to train ourselves some "Philosopher Kings" .. get at it!

Plato's Republic will rise!
Are you kidding me.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-22, 10:25   Link #31357
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Are you kidding me.
Philosopher kings are the rulers of Plato's Utopian Kallipolis. If his ideal city-state is to ever come into being, "philosophers [must] become kings…or those now called kings [must]…genuinely and adequately philosophize" (The Republic, 5.473d).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher_king

Criticism

Karl Popper blamed Plato for the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century, seeing Plato's philosopher kings, with their dreams of 'social engineering' and 'idealism', as leading directly to Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (via Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Karl Marx). In addition, Ayatollah Khomeini is said to have been inspired by the Platonic vision of the philosopher king while in Qum in the 1920s when he became interested in Islamic mysticism and Plato's Republic. As such, it has been speculated that he was inspired by Plato's philosopher king, and subsequently based elements of his Islamic Republic on it.
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Old 2013-10-22, 10:25   Link #31358
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Are you kidding me.
Gay Fascism FTW !
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Old 2013-10-22, 10:28   Link #31359
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Philosopher kings are the rulers of Plato's Utopian Kallipolis. If his ideal city-state is to ever come into being, "philosophers [must] become kings…or those now called kings [must]…genuinely and adequately philosophize" (The Republic, 5.473d).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher_king

Criticism

Karl Popper blamed Plato for the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century, seeing Plato's philosopher kings, with their dreams of 'social engineering' and 'idealism', as leading directly to Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (via Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Karl Marx). In addition, Ayatollah Khomeini is said to have been inspired by the Platonic vision of the philosopher king while in Qum in the 1920s when he became interested in Islamic mysticism and Plato's Republic. As such, it has been speculated that he was inspired by Plato's philosopher king, and subsequently based elements of his Islamic Republic on it.
That is why I asked. The practicality of managing any economy or any diplomatic relations is none of that of a job for a philosopher. The world is too big for absolutes, and moves too fast to ponder on anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Gay Fascism FTW !
Absolutely not.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-22, 10:37   Link #31360
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Gay Fascism FTW !
Sure, why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That is why I asked. The practicality of managing any economy or any diplomatic relations is none of that of a job for a philosopher. The world is too big for absolutes, and moves too fast to ponder on anything.
Wha-? Oh c'mon, we just need a more perfect despot and we'll be all good?



Town faces criticism after appointing municipal philosopher to offer weekly consultations and questioning residents' existence

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...?newsfeed=true
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