Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

Are cybernetic enhancements legal or perhaps common place in Midchilda?

Unknown. But, given that what Subaru has appears similar to the Combat Cyborgs, hers is unlikely to be legal enhancements.

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Unknown. But, given that what Subaru has appears similar to the Combat Cyborgs, hers is unlikely to be legal enhancements.

But when you look at this in a different light, she did get accepted in to Ground force before coming to MD6. So unless the screening system is extremely lax, her enhancements are likly to be picked up via a scan, it is a logical to assume to some degree it is legal in Mid.

[Tormenk]

Wasn't Mary (the device tech) doing scans on the sisters a couple episodes back? any idea what she was scanning for?

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Unknown. But, given that what Subaru has appears similar to the Combat Cyborgs, hers is unlikely to be legal enhancements.

However, RF6 KNOWS of her enhancements that much we know... Mariel is shown examining both Ginga and Subaru in episode 15, and we know that Mariel is no doctor. And, as Darco_emp already pointed out both Ginga and Subaru still got accepted into the academy despite their nature.

[Key Board]

string pulling and cover ups was probably involved

how much does the average soldier know about Fate, Nanoha and Hayate's past?

can you really penalize a girl for being what she is?

as for the Scag's team

The only person who I know for sure is strong is Zest. And even his full drive isn't without side effects

III and VII ganged up on Fate. Two against one is a severe tactical advantage no matter what.

V, IX and XI had to gang up on Ginga to capture her. And it seems to me that any one of them alone is not really a match for a Subaru

VIII and XII had a whole platoon of bombardment type gadjets to back them up.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

she did get accepted in to Ground force before coming to MD6. So unless the screening system is extremely lax, her enhancements are likly to be picked up via a scan, it is a logical to assume to some degree it is legal in Mid.

I think it's more a case of the TSAB "doesn't mind" because they know she wasn't to blame for how she got those enhancements. After all, they accepted people like Fate and the Volkenritter.

[DmonHiro]

Well....the numbers have some sneaky abbilites, but all in all anyone of the aces can do everything all the numbers can do(maybe except Deep Diver and Silver Curtain). Wide Impulse, Slaughter Arms, Rumble Detonator, Heavy Barrel, etc, can all be replaces with magic attacks. There's not even one number so far that can stand her own agains Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, Vita or Signum. If/when Subaru lears to controll her IS, she's be kicking number ass for sure. Caro has a fucking flying forteress who just happenes to be Bahamut's big brother. Let's see the numbers fight Voltaire, see how THAT goes.Erio was actually ON PAR with Garyu befor he was attacked from behind. Let's not forget ve still have Chrono, Across, Carim in the background, whos power is not even known (but it's known there at least S rank). So, right now in Spagetti's ranks, the only REAL powerfull mages are Zest and Lutecia. The numbers have to gang up on a target to have a chance. So I'm betting Scag needs Ginga and Vivio to make something REALLY powerfull (at least S rank)

[Nightengale]

Well, L.A.Z aren't even Scaglietti's... it's just that Lutecia doesn't mind helping him with chores. Unlike Zest or Agito, Lutecia was acknowledged to be created by him and his at one point of their lives.

Well, if they are Relic Weapons, and one Relic was used each for Lutecia and Zest, we'll see what Jail can do with the Vessel and OVER 100 Relics. The Numbers may be a fine coordinated sister-team, but in the end, they're clearly made to fight in an AMF-setting alongside Drones for maximum efficiency, and to be sold to the highest bidders (( not neccesarily the current ones, but Jail can always make new ones )), which means more or less replaceable with enough girlpower and money into the Doctor's pockets.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

Well....the numbers have some sneaky abbilites, but all in all anyone of the aces can do everything all the numbers can do(maybe except Deep Diver and Silver Curtain). Wide Impulse, Slaughter Arms, Rumble Detonator, Heavy Barrel, etc, can all be replaces with magic attacks. There's not even one number so far that can stand her own agains Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, Vita or Signum. If/when Subaru lears to controll her IS, she's be kicking number ass for sure. Caro has a fucking flying forteress who just happenes to be Bahamut's big brother. Let's see the numbers fight Voltaire, see how THAT goes.Erio was actually ON PAR with Garyu befor he was attacked from behind. Let's not forget ve still have Chrono, Across, Carim in the background, whos power is not even known (but it's known there at least S rank). So, right now in Spagetti's ranks, the only REAL powerfull mages are Zest and Lutecia. The numbers have to gang up on a target to have a chance. So I'm betting Scag needs Ginga and Vivio to make something REALLY powerfull (at least S rank)

It's possible though that creating someone like Numbers is relatively easy given enough time and resources while S-class mages are one in a million cases.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Well, L.A.Z aren't even Scaglietti's... it's just that Lutecia doesn't mind helping him with chores. Unlike Zest or Agito, Lutecia was acknowledged to be created by him and his at one point of their lives.

Well, if they are Relic Weapons, and one Relic was used each for Lutecia and Zest, we'll see what Jail can do with OVAR 100 Relics.

There's actually no proof nor is there anything that suggests that Lutecia and Zest were even created by Scaglietti. Just because Scaglietti called them Relic Weapon Experiments doesn't mean he was a part of the experiments that created them.

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

Originally Posted by Burner of Anime

My take on the 3 combat systems shown so far:

Mid-child system is almost entirely magic based with some augmentation using Intelligent deviced. The power of the magi are inborn with their linker cores which is also their main source. This makes them the general Mage-warrior class.

Velka user are similar in that their powers are innate. However, reliance on the cartridges and Armed Devices means that magic is to augment their physical abilities. The surge of power from its use also means that there is a need for a dedicated systems manager [read: Unison devices] so that the surge doesn't eventually erode their bodies and kill them. Velka users are warrior first, the magic just gives that extra kick when needed.

Inherent Systems takes Unison devices to an entirely different level. It is both their souce of power and weapon, integrated directly into the user. The most machinelike of the 3 systems, I'd guess that there are a development from the Velka system when there are not sufficent numbers for natural born magi. Pure warriors in this sense without the need for magic [hence Subaru's strange affinity with them in her report- she can beat the heck out of a drone without magic].

About Subaru's and Ginga's power then? What is the most likely scenario for ambitious prototype combat system but a hybrid of all 3. When the girl was 'zerking out she successfully employed all 3 systems at one time, literally tearing her weapons and body apart in the process [which is the likely danger]. The Number girls with their specialist system isn't going to have the firepower to face a monster like this alone. The smart thing would have been to cut and run with the sample they have.

this is a pretty interesting fact.
Although, wasn't it mentioned also that "Wing road" was also Ginga's and Subaru's Inherent Skill??

[Thisguy]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

Which brings up another question.

In EP15 prologue, Ginga explicitly says that in Midchilda, SKJ technology is considered taboo and research was terminated long ago, for various reason including ethic and dangerousness.
She did not explicitly say it's "illegal", but from the way she talked about that, at least it's not broadly accepted or popular.

Edit:

There's actually no proof nor is there anything that suggests that Lutecia and Zest were even created by Scaglietti. Just because Scaglietti called them Relic Weapon Experiments doesn't mean he was a part of the experiments that created them.

In EP9, right after his conversation with Lutecia, he says out loud that "My creation is, after all, excellent".
He did not explicitly say what he's refering, but it was very suggestive scene I'd say.

Although, wasn't it mentioned also that "Wing road" was also Ginga's and Subaru's Inherent Skill??

Well, not directly.
In Comic, Shari says that Wing Road is Subaru's "Original Magic", is "Inherent kind of Magic", and it's formula quite differs from ordinary magics.
So it's not explicitly said it's an IS, and it's even regarded as a magic, if very unique.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Rob the Fox

There's actually no proof nor anything that suggests that Lutecia and Zest were even created by Scaglietti. Just because Scaglietti called them Relic Weapon Experiments doesn't mean he was a part of the experiments that created them.

I never said anything about Zest being Scaglietti's. The fact that he refers to Zest as "Knight" seems to indicate a level of formality, which means they aren't close and never were. And Zest hates him. I meant Lutecia. Just because Lutecia and Zest aren't from same creators doesn't mean that they are different kinds of experimental weapons, just under different evil bastards. Kinda like different branches of Project F spawns.

He clearly laughed and smirked, calling his 'toys wonderfully created indeed" during the episode where Teana was being emo, when Lutecia and the Doctor conversed. Considering he was just talking on how the Drones were junk, he could only be referring to Lutecia, which means that Lutecia was Scaglietti's creation, that he sold off. And the fact that only Lutecia out of the 3 seems acceptable of him shows something.

Originally Posted by Thisguy

In EP9, right after his conversation with Lutecia, he says out loud that "My creation is, after all, excellent".
He did not explicitly say what he's refering, but it was very suggestive scene I'd say.

Screencap.



There's little chance of it referring to anyone other than Lutecia, since Uno wasn't even in sight and the only thing he was talking about prior was his junk toys about to get destroyed. I don't think he would remotely even think that they're excellent in the slightest.

[Keroko]

Do I see.... Star Wars comparisons? [Illidan]You are not prepared![/Illidan]

I am still not convinced that there were no victims whatsoever, we did see a lot of TSAB grunts going against the gadgets, and we never saw them again.

Originally Posted by Fabien

You said "He could CHOOSE whether they live or die".
Yes, he could; basically, anybody is in such a situation quite often.
I chose not to kill the pedestrians; he chose not to kill the TSAB people. All is well.

Nice comparison, but flawed in a way. Say that there were no victims in the episode, you were in the car, you would have missed the pedestrian, smashed your car into his house, drove a few circles in his living room, grabbed a little girl and drove back out. On your way out, you stop by the pedestrian and say: "Hey, I just demolished your house because you were obstructing me, and kidnapped a little kid because I need her. No, I won't tell you what for r what my goals are, but since I am doing it for a humanitarian reason it's okay. I could have klilled you. Bye."

That's what you would have done.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

She's an artificial human. I don't see a whole lot of people other than Scarlietti with this capability. If we assume Scarlietti made her, then isn't it the TSAB that's abducting her? He's literally daddy looking for a daughter here! If Scarlietti points out he's the father nicely and asks for her back, do you think they'd hand her over nicely? Of course not!

Frankly, if I'm Scarlietti, Vivio's my daughter/creation and the TSAB has abducted her, I'd be sending in my Numbers on Genocide mode to get her back.

The problem is that he isn't a daddy looking for his daughter, he is looking for his tool. Big difference there. Should we hand him Fate and Erio while we're at it?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

You can't justify Lost Logia research (or any other research involving even the smallest risk) w/o at least allowing the possibility of benefits to mankind.

It is also a case of Nandaka tsukkomi tai. They've really gone out of their way to make Scarlietti pure evil and mad this time. When someone does this but does not do a good enough job sealing the holes, I get this tsukkomi tai feeling. I had similar feelings for the Star Wars Galactic Empire as well, a feeling much reinforced by the New Republic's total incompetence in dealing with the Vong (parallels the incompetence of the TSAB).

The empire would have been just as incompetent. They have no regard for human life, and a political structure that completely relied on the force using emperor. The Vong did not exist in the force, what would you think would happen? The emperor would be like a sitting duck to Vong assasins.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

You are the one that's assuming Scarlietti is a cold SOB, aren't you? In any case, given her value, there may be little choice but to treat her as "something" more than "someone".

If you have unobtainium in your body (the only known reserve in the world), and unobtainium is very useful, see how much the world's governments will treat you as "someone". No, they will treat you as something and mine you for the unobtainium.

And that excuses Scaglieti for treating her like one? Especially since he ripped her away from people who did -in fact- treat her as a someone?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Any revolutionary must start off with the concept that he, or at least his ideas, are above the corrupted law that pervades the land, or he won't even start.

By your standards, the Star Wars Rebel Alliance is immoral because they declare (complete w/ Declaration of Rebellion) they are above Imperial law which was the dominant law at the time.

The main issue with that point is that they are immoral.

However, there are a couple of Death Star sized flaws in your comparison. For example, the Empire was opressing worlds, bombing cities, executing those who disagreed, forcefully drafting people, discriminating women and aliens, building weapons of mass destruction and using them on pasifist worlds. To compare the TSAB with the Empire is laughable.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Amazing. You automatically abscribe the more evil motive to him. Whatever the **** happened to benefit of the doubt or presumption of innocence.

Since you've just decided what he did was an act of war, this makes the whole thing a war and the attack a psy-op operation+resource grab. And he pulled it off with again ... ZERO verifiable deaths! That's just so evil (by the standards of war).

And what happened to all the TSAB grunts that were attacked on the streets? We never saw those again, but seeing the damage Zafira and Shamal took, you can't possibly say they came out unscratched.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

By killing the Emperor, the Rebel Alliance created chaos and panic by rendering the Empire ineffective in maintaining order. Man, they are EVILLLLLL!

Again, major flaws in the comparison. While they did create chaos by killing the Emperor, the Alliance offered a motivation, they offered a reason, they offered an explanation.

But most of all: They offered an alternative.

Scaglieti offered a motivation. That's all.

[Thisguy]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Screencap.

Ah thanks, I should watch subs too before jumping into discussion

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

finally got to see the full RAW episode.
the massive destruction done in this episode was unbelievable!
the preview for the next episode really showed the aftermath of the destruction...and Vivio's burning bunny...what a symbolic way of showing the fall of RF6.
Although I must admit that this episode belonged to the forwards. Erio did his thing and pull off mode 2 strada and tried his best to defeat Garyuu, but couldn't.
Caro summoned Voltaire and what a huge black dragon he is!!0_0
Teana did a massive Kage Bushin to the numbers.
and of course, Subaru stole the spot light in this episode by going full berserk mode and kicking the snot out of Nouve and Cinque!
I think everyone snapped except for Teana.
What did Tres and that other number say to Fate after their battle before running off?
something about the Doctor, but also Fate being a Project F result experiment and all.

this makes me think though at the end of this episode...is Scaglietti really the bad guy here?
seems like he was making a comment to TSAB that theres more to come.
I wonder if he's trying to prove a point to TSAB about something...this relates to the Numbers' little chat with Fate in this episode also....

[Chaos2Frozen]

@Keroko

Just let it die... Maybe they'll forget about it after chasing butterflies >.<

If the Ion Canons can't get through to them, nothing else created by man ever will...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

@Keroko

Just let it die... Maybe they'll forget about it after chasing butterflies >.<

If the Ion Canons can't get through to them, nothing else created by man ever will...

You misunderstand, I'm having fun here :3

The last few discussion threads were dull and boring, this one has gotten things stiring again! It's a race to convince these guys before canon proves my point.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

One strange thing I found is how Jail doesn't seem to even bother wanting to capture Elio or Fate anymore.

Well, he has work to do: he has to study Ginga before Hayate-tachi come and get her back. Now's not the time to pick more subjects.

[Tormenk]

Now what would the good doctor have in mind for his Type 0 specimen? aka Ginga.