Is The Anime Fandom Getting Dumber?

[Kaioshin Sama]

I realize this topic probably looks like an invitation to a fight, but hear me out please. Over the past few years I've started to feel that the anime fandom has lost site of the things that one would think really matters. Enjoying anime for the entertainment and personal meaning and value it provides as opposed to engaging in petty rankings wars as seen on sites like MAL, ANN etc. where the goal is less to appreciate the anime one likes so much as to try and enforce a standard on others and make them accept that their favourite show "deserves" (the word of the year on MAL it seems) a certain level of recognition just because they say so. As an aside I'm pretty sure I'm going to be either abandoning my account on MAL or at least refusing to ever post in all but the clubs I frequent ever again for the reason that the discussion has just gotten to stupid in most series forums.

Anyway, even further than that the conversations that one typically finds in a thread on a particular anime seem to be less about discussing the show so much as discussing whether people think it's as good or worse than another show. Both levels of discussion can be possible within a thread, or neither even, but it seems like the former is dominating topics nowadays and that people are utterly oblivious to the idea that there's anything beyond that level of discussion.

Also I've noticed this for a long time, but it seems worse more recently, blind fanboyism seems on the rise by the year where posters are unrelenting as far as their love of a particular series or subset of series goes and unwilling to entertain the thought that there could be merits to something beyond what they are typically used to....well....fanboying over for a lackof a better terms. My 10 year old cousins are pretty picky about tastes...but this is a matter of food and well...they are also 10 and haven't grown into the mindset to try other things yet...and we're talking about 18+ year olds here who seem to be even less mature on average than my cousins who are much better with trying new entertainment than trying new foods.

It's sad to see and still sadder to say, but I fell alienated from the discussions over anime that I used to love having (even the tense debates) not even a few years ago and have barely watched any of it out of a lack of appreciation for and a lack of people to discuss it with me on the level I recall having in the early 21st century. My best friends who watched anime and discussed it on the old Anime Academy website up until even a few years out of high school (circa 2005-2006 we are talking) can barely find an interest in it anymore as well since I am essentially their only source of point to point and on the level discussion about the actual shows content and canon that they remember from our discussions in the hall before class in high school. Lately I'm starting to wonder if I've now outgrown the level of discussion to be had in the average anime forum as well.

Speaking of age and maturity, the people that have been fans since at least high school and who are in their mid 20's typically seem to be okay and open minded people to talk with, but even this demographic seems to be getting more aggressive and susceptible to engaging in and provoking the same kind of discussion quality one might find on 4chan's /a subforum by the year (see anime blogs and such for an example). People who are younger and obviously pretty impressionable....I wouldn't want them being molded by the current environment I am seeing now, but I'm not sure it isn't already too late for them.

Anyway I really don't know what to think, so I'll let other people chime in with how they feel. I promise I'm not trying to start a tiff between younger and older posters or trying to start a war of tastes, I'm just genuinely curious if people think the anime fanbase has gotten dumber or at least fallen out of touch with the enjoyment of anime itself as I fell I have witnessed.

[Archon_Wing]

Strange, I think the younger folks are getting smarter. (May not be saying much) This is in no doubt thanks to the Internets being such a wealth of information. At least it's helped me; I was fairly ignorant about anime a few years ago. Yes, tons of people are retarded but really, it's what you make of it.

And using MAL and ANN is not really a useful way of judging any fanbase. Blind fanboyism has been around forever. It doesn't matter of its anime, television, or movies. This is just simply narrow mindedness, and such retarded fandom wars and arguing over minute details have been around for like... forever.

For the most part, most netizens are fairly reasonable; it's just the loudest are also the dumbest.

[roriconfan]

People didn't got more stupid. They got more critical and demanding, a normal reaction to anyone watching too many series of the same type over many years.

I remember how scarce people who knew of anime were back in the 80's. It was me and a few other dudes talking about two or three series and imagining how many more like these are out there. Now everyone has at least heard of them and it is easy to post, mention, propose something over the internet. Face to face with others makes you think more of what you will say.

[Ichihara Asako]

As a long time fan watching anime since long before the web boom, and observing how fandom has evolved on the internet over the years, I'd generally say they are getting dumber. Of course I'm probably jaded and biased as I subbed for a long time and I'm currently a forum moderator on one of the larger modern communities so I've seen and am still exposed to huge amounts of idiocy, which I tend to notice more than any sign of intelligence.

So I won't vote since I do have an obvious bias, but I also think such polls are rather pointless anyway. Though here on AS, intelligent discussion is more frequent than most other anime communities, which is why I still frequent it. So maybe this will go somewhere interesting, but since it's a pretty black and white question, I doubt it will.

I could cite all sorts of examples of moronic behaviour that happens now that didn't used to, but there really isn't much point. Every one of my examples could be countered with good, serious discussion, though it is easier to find mud than it is to discover gold just about anywhere, I like to think the intelligent, serious and interesting discussion outweighs the idiocy that is so abundant. I've grown a thick skin over the years, so I can largely ignore the stupids. Though I can also fully understand where you're coming from wanting to abandon largely braindead communities.

[roriconfan]

And let's not forget that the more people of all tastes an entertainment medium tries to pull together, the easier it is to find people with a lot different way of thinking than you. My few anime buddies in the 80's and 90's all had more or less the same taste as me. Now, there are a gazillion different types all over the place. And usually you find it stupid when other people don't think about something as you do.

[Ash Falls Town]

I think you're taking MAL rating drama too seriously. When Gintama over took Clannad's top position much of the early sparks were caused by the fact that Gintama didn't just become top anime but became top anime from about rank 83.

A lot of people assumed something must have been wrong with the system for something weird like that to take place. A lot of MAL users didn't know about the *at least a fifth watched* requirement for scoring to count towards the total rating. After Gintama finished around 7000 scores were invalidated.

After this it was a good deal of it was whether it's reasonable to expect people to watch 3 cours worth of Gintama before there opinions on it are valid. As well as whether a show that only gets really good after so many episodes. People were already asking these questions about LoGH for a long time earlier though so it's not even that recent.

As for Disappearance most people expect the score to go down after the non cam rip version comes out.

[roriconfan]

Meh, every time a long anticipated title finishes, many rush to give 10's without much thought. It is a normal reaction of fans. That doesn't prove they are stupid; just zealous.

[cyth]

The fact that a 25-year old can even engage in rare meaningful conversation in communities that are dominated by teenagers means that the fandom is doing perfectly fine.

Also, blind fanboyism is enjoying anime for personal meaning and value. Any kind of engagement beyond that is unwarranted excess.

[Ash Falls Town]

Anyway more on your actual argument and less on the catalyst.
Your arguments seem to mainly come down to
1. New viewers are to focused on comparing shows to one another to the detriment of focusing on the actual shows content.
2. New viewers tastes are too narrow.
3. You're finding it hard to join in on discussions.

Argument 1 seems to be your main one and it's probably the hardest to counter. The big thing is that more shows are being made and more of these shows are similar to each other and past shows. Genre conventions are becoming stronger and character archetypes are starting to become more recognizable. After recognising an archetype or convention it becomes difficult to switch off the recognisation. So instead of just asking yourself why you like a particular character you ask yourself is this tsundere's tsuntsun a natural progression for the characters background and other personality traits or did the author just throw in tsun for the sake of tsun.

On viewers with too narrow tastes. I do think more people understand their own tastes better than you give them credit for. I didn't think I'd like Azumanga Daioh, Fate/stay night or Utawarerumono and surprise surprise I ended up not liking Azumanga Daioh, Fate/stay night and Utawarerumono. Asking people to watch things for the sake of watching things they usually don't watch isn't helping anyone really.

For three maybe modern anime just isn't to your taste or maybe you've just outgrown discussing anime. Neither of these suggest that anime fans are getting dumber just that your not fitting in as well.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

Your arguments seem to mainly come down to
1. New viewers are to focused on comparing shows to one another to the detriment of focusing on the actual shows content.
2. New viewers tastes are too narrow.
3. You're finding it hard to join in on discussions.

Adding my 0.02$ to it.

I have seen plenty of long-time viewers guilty of #2 and #1, and I don't mean those who started watching anime in the late 90s to early 2000s, but those from way back. As for #2, this basically boils down to having found one's own comfort zone and refusing to get out of it, as well as refusing to give anything outside of mentioned comfort zone a fair judgement.
My bottom line? I think it's unfair to accuse the newer anime fans (those that 4chan calls the "newfags") of being solely guilty for letting #1 and #2 happen. No one is born with flawless and most refined tastes, just like no one is silver spoon fed with caviar and the finest french wine from birth.

[Marcus H.]

Actually, the misconceptions happen whenever an "experienced" anime series reviewer wrongly sees an anime.

I read a nice review about K-ON! (first season) and what I enjoyed is how it debunked how another review made by a respectable manga pioneer named Hideo Azuma described K-ON! as "empty" by telling things that Hideo-san might have overlooked while watching all those moe.

My two cents here is that veterans and newbies alike share the blame in the fandom in general being "dumber". The real thing is that veterans become close-minded while newbies forget that anime series have more than meets the eye (loltransformers).

[Vexx]

Oldbies are getting too quick to write off a series because they label and pigeonhole without thinking. They're unwilling to try new genre.

Newbies have not taken the time to learn that things happened before they arrived. They don't learn the history.

Zealots come in both versions. The need to *rank* a series against each other or 'ship for it is a dumb primal trait -- not new, just applied in an odd regime. Few seem to have paid attention in their literature classes.

The only real decline I've noted is the same decline in general knowledge of the population over the last couple of decades (confine this observation to the US, can't answer for elsewhere). The "idiocracy" effect, if you will. It exhibits in unawareness of culture, inability to make reference, construct context, etc.

[bayoab]

I don't know if dumber is really the right word for what's going on. I'd say it's more "collectivized" and "hostile" on the surface. There is less acceptance of opposite opinions than ever. Those who stick out get smacked down and this behavior (the repudiation of opposite opinions) is even encouraged. People don't try to genuinely express thoughts anymore.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by bayoab

I don't know if dumber is really the right word for what's going on. I'd say it's more "collectivized" and "hostile" on the surface.

This is kind of how I perceive it too... I don't know if there ever was a sense of "one fandom" in the anime community, but if there was it certainly isn't the case anymore.

Also, I think it's worth noting that nature of the website will affect what people post on it. I can't speak for MAL, but I never read ANN anymore unless linked to something that looks really interested because I found that many of their reviews and articles left me feeling more choked at the author than ready to have a discussion about it - and in many cases, I felt the tone of the article was intentional.

[Archon_Wing]

I guess I've been involved in forums and online communication for about 8-9 years? For the most part I see the same kind of annoyances. Perhaps there's more bad manners in online gaming, but it's generally the same type of bad egg that may sour the experience for some. Perhaps it's due to anonymity or insecurity or whatever, but the two most annoying types of person on the internet (save for the vulgar, perhaps drunk troll) tends to:

1.) Present Opinion as fact (It's obvious that...)
2.) Regard other opinions as inferior (Nobody would be so stupid...)

And as a side effect, they tend to band with those who share the same opinions and hate those who don't have those opinions. In gaming circles, where insecurity is just huge and many people need to overcompensate, you'll see some elitists refer to others as "noobs" Politics discussion is another area where all the idiots come with no arguments-- they just want to bash others with different views. You'll see console wars, shipping wars, and of course anime wars. MAL rating wars are nothing; just look at IMDB.

I guess it's part of human nature to hold your own opinions so strongly. Some people are just more insecure about it than others, and scream more loudly. So yea, in order to win at the internet, you simply have to take it all in stride despite the worst aspects of any fandom that makes the group look really fucking dumb.

[Kaioshin Sama]

This definitely isn't meant to be an old versus new topic that I started because I realize that's been done to death and probably won't go anywhere useful. It's actually a general observation of the entire fandom.

bayoab's "collectivized and hostile" makes a lot of sense to me. A lot of what I labelled stupidity could be better described as clique-ism or an us versus them mentality that won't lead anywhere useful when mashed up against others with the same mentality. I guess you could say that I think anime viewers are becoming a lot more like gamers who buy into the whole console wars propaganda or Soccer fans during the World Cup or really any game between two major clubs.

The problem is that when I run into them (a lot more often lately) they assume I'm like them and just refuse to get it when I try to talk reason. It used to frustrate me to a degree, but now I've just kind of stopped caring. This is bad too though because I notice that as a result of not caring it's kind of driving me back into a clique of personal tastes and a comfort zone when I'd rather still be exploring new ones.

[chikorita157]

I don't participate in MyAnimeList forums at all... but I do participate in the Anime Blogosphere and I comment on a number of blogs, most of them are pretty intelligent (with a few focusing on RAEG too much). With some people, they focus too much on the negative aspect and RAEG alot which isn't exactly funny after while. Open minded/intelligent discussion is good... even if you enjoy or don't enjoy the title you are watching. Instead of nitpicking at every aspect, people should just relax and enjoy the show. Even if there are flaws, one can still enjoy it despite that and if someone don't like it, just don't watch it. It's not worth the trouble of watching a show a person may not like and raeging about it as it won't give a good impression on the person as a whole.

As my friend said, "Being negative just to RAAAAGE and FFFFFF isn’t funny or clever. Balance is the key to life, and there’s something beautiful even in the ugliest of places." It's a very good thing that I don't see much raeg on AnimeSuki and instead, intelligent discussion and I give them credit for that. So, is the Anime Fandom getting dumber? From what I have seen, the answer is no.

[roriconfan]

It's like overpopulation in animals. When they are few and all part of one herd, things are rather calm. But when there are dozens of herds, with hundreds of alpha males, food is not enough and females are on heat... Well, cry havoc and unleash the hogs of war.

It does have to do with feeling secure. Secure in your beliefs that it. More people mean more beliefs and most are not willing to just coexist with them all.

Take me for example. If I come across a Narutard of Bleachtard, I flame and troll (mostly the series but when dealing with fanboys, it's like making fun of them directly). I just can't help it. I find it stupid when there are so many better in overall series out there. I know it has to do with tastes and mindsets and what one looks for in a series. But it is still hard to just let it slide while staying idle.

And as a veteran I admit it has to do with comparing series with one another all the time. There is such a well defined anime lexicon out there, you can tag anything to find similarities no matter what. Anime wars begin from there.

In the 90's I was part of many game wars like Nintendo vs Sega (we won), Mario vs Sonic (again), Street Fighter vs Mortal Kombat (lost there). All began by comparing stuff.

It is not bad to do comparative criticism; I actually love it. It has to do mostly with giving different weights on each element or section of any series. Some care too much about animation, some more about story, some like it just for being moe, some hate it for being nothing more than that. The "Rule of cool" is a tag I hate yet many like it and we usually bitch just over that one.

Some like apples, some like oranges, both are fruits yet the lovers of each fruit hype it and end up provoking uproar from the other side.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

The problem is that when I run into them (a lot more often lately) they assume I'm like them and just refuse to get it when I try to talk reason. It used to frustrate me to a degree, but now I've just kind of stopped caring. This is bad too though because I notice that as a result of not caring it's kind of driving me back into a clique of personal tastes and a comfort zone when I'd rather still be exploring new ones.

Eh, the way you put it seems to leads to a problem. It sounds like you are making people a bit more defensive and obviously they're not gonna respond too well to that. It's possible they feel you may be pushing something subjective as fact on them. "refuse to get it when I try to talk reason" assumes that you are right, though I don't think you mean it like that, more that they simply just shut out any valid point you can make.

But usually it's best to try to make concessions; so it feels like you are acknowledging their side too. Otherwise it will feel too much like a soapbox.

On an unrelated issue, it annoys me the most when you do criticize a series only to be met of cries of "YOU DONT GET IT". While that may be true, nobody seems to admit that it could be the anime's fault. After all, it is their job to make us get it.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

On an unrelated issue, it annoys me the most when you do criticize a series only to be met of cries of "YOU DONT GET IT". While that may be true, nobody seems to admit that it could be the anime's fault. After all, it is their job to make us get it.

How about when you get totally different things than the others? Here is another reason wars brake up. The latest case of mine was the Code Geass ending. I found it stupid; others found it the most awesome thing after sex.