[Manga] Chapter 444 Discussion

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by james0246

The problem, from what you have listed here, is that "clues, hints, and foreshadowing" can all be fairly subjective at times, especially when it is not fully understood how specific powers (present or future) work. So, while we can argue about Sasuke and Naruto, or other named characters, and their potential abilities, in the end, until the battle actually occurs (if it occurs), we are simply left with comparing possibilities (check out the Kakashi vs. Sasuke thread to learn more about where conjecture with few facts can lead you).

So, while I may find Phenomenal's methods anal at times (who doesn't like discussion based on conjecture and inferrence ), the fact that he refuses to take the extra step into the land of possibilities is not necessarily bad. It is, at worst, boring, but not bad (or somehow inhuman (which, imho is going a little to far)).

I didnt see this before. Sure they can be subjective; but they can also be pretty obvious. There was also a conversation in another thread no too long ago about implied rules and etc. in a fiction manga. I think certain events can also imply certain things also. We can imply that Lee is no longer more powerful than Sasuke or Naruto because of what we've seen from each of them and what they've learned.

I don't remember it ever being stated that Sasuke or Naruto surpassed lee as a "canon" fact; yet its pretty obvious they did. "phenomenal" also conveniently deleted his post saying Lee and Kakashi admitted it; but the only thing I remember them admitting is that Sasuke pretty much matched Lee's speed and taijutsu style. It wasn't stated, but its obviously implied, judging by their training, current abilities, etc.

[james0246]

Foreshadowing can be a truly amazing device that can greatly enhance a story (if used properly). That is not to say that Kishimoto has always used it properly, though. Just look at the debacle over "that jutsu". We have been trying to figure out for 3-4 years if Naruto has already used "that jutsu" or not; hell we have been trying to figure out if "that jutsu" is even a jutsu or not. And, so far, Kishimoto has been very lacksidasical about properly explaining what "that jutsu" is/was/will be. (To give another example: Does anyone else remember the supposed foreshadowing for Kakashi knowing how to open the Gates back in Part I?)

So, again, while some story/character advancements can be telegraphed (especially considering that this is a Shounen series ), others are far more ambiguous and sometimes downright confusing.

That being said, as long as a person can adequately use evidence from the manga to explain their theories and speculations, I really do not care how far their conjecture strays from the norm.

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by james0246

We have been trying to figure out for 3-4 years if Naruto has already used "that jutsu" or not; hell we have been trying to figure out if "that jutsu" is even a jutsu or not.

LOL @ 3-4 years of trying to figure out. Yeah, some people were really getting desperate too lol.

Originally Posted by james0246

others are far more ambiguous and sometimes downright confusing.

Yeah sure I'm not denying that they can be.

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, as long as a person can adequately use evidence from the manga to explain their theories and speculations, I really do not care how far their conjecture strays from the norm.

This is what I'm trying to get across. Sometimes the evidence is so overwhelmingly obvious.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

Just look at the debacle over "that jutsu". We have been trying to figure out for 3-4 years if Naruto has already used "that jutsu" or not; hell we have been trying to figure out if "that jutsu" is even a jutsu or not. And, so far, Kishimoto has been very lacksidasical about properly explaining what "that jutsu" is/was/will be.

Since the only person (?) who mentioned those words isis already dead, unless he is brought back from dead in reality or in memory, we may not hear those words again. Maybe, this is the reason why Kishi is acting this way. Jiraiya was not around for most of the time, and when he was needed, he was already gone. So, your best bet might be a direct Q&A session with Kishi. But, anyways, for now, Naruto intentionally giving himself to Kyuubi can be considered as that jutsu. That is the only dangerous connection he has with Jiraiya.

[Supermutant]

Didn't he also use the new Air-release Rasengan, which he had once been forbidden from using? I thought that was the obvious candidate for 'that' jutsu.

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Simple, the story has its own trends that change in time, so this is creating a trend among the posters and the posts being made. Even though you say you have been reading far longer than you post, I find it difficult to believe considering your initial post. Either you were coming here to get an update or you weren't reading carefully.

The trend is irrelevent to the double standard I pointed out, no matter how the story changes. There have been people who have compulsivley stated their problems with a certain character becoming what they define as “too strong”, but now that another certain character has gained powers that, not only are at least as about as powerful, but have no negative side effects, not only do they not complain, they praise the author’s writing as if it was bad before; simply because their apparent favorite character wasn’t as powerful as they wanted, it seems.
And, please show me this post you speak of; explaining how you can actually determine that I wasn’t reading along longer than I’ve been posting.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

You need to evaluate things in order and should not expect the same response when you see similar things over time. The first time balance changes among the characters and an overpower is introduced, it is quite normal to get unsatisfactory responses. But, in time, people get used to it. And similar kind of power-ups, or even higher power-ups to the originally powered-up characters may not create a similar response. You cannot reset people and assume they know nothing about the story when they come posting here. And if they know, they are more prepared to see outrageous changes in the storyline or in the character development.

“May not create a similar response?” We’ve been getting complaints for even the most subtle improvements or changes, such as a mere change of clothes. Tell me, when do they suddenly get used to powerful improvements? Right when their favorite character gains them?

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

If you want to discuss then start a discussion, and you will find people discussing about those. You cannot expect other people to start discussion on these things, especially the ones who got used to this so much that they would not see it as an emergency act to make that point. Instead they would most act to respond.

There have been many, many discussions over naruto’s powerups, even before he actually received them. But I wasn’t referring to lack of discussion, but the lack of complaints and dissatisfaction in those discussions; from people who supposedly hate or have problems with "hax" jutsu. ...Or at least they did before.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Also, you shouldn't compare two things as if they are the same. Sharingan has been around since the beginning of the series, and it has been available for critic, analysis and other things for a much longer time . So, when the same thing gets power-ups over and over again, of course it is bound to create a lot of discussion. That is not the case for senjutsu. It is something new, it appeared out of nowhere. But that won't change the fact that the more you hear and see of that, the more you will find the negative points about it.

I am not speaking of the sharingan specifically; I am speaking of Sasuke gaining strength. Besides, the horde of complaints given about Sasuke gaining Orochimaru’s powers(especially the skin shedding) falsifies your point here since that was brand new; as well as “Kirin”. As soon as he received them and/or used them, there were all sorts of complaints and ranting of how “overpowered” these techniques are.

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

Okay, just answer this question for me plain and simple, no nonsense: Is Rock Lee more powerful than Naruto or Sasuke?

Nope, not at all. Rock Lee couldn't stand a chance against Pain even if he were to release all gate levels. I would also suspect Naruto to be way faster and stronger in sage mode. Naruto without Sage Mode is probably a good match for Rock Lee.

Sasuke is pretty much the same deal. Sasuke's elemental chakra, lightning, does not even require a physical contact with his hands just to receive damage. He has the ability to electrocute/cut targets from a distance by using precise chakra control. Another thing I might add about Sasuke, I am not sure if his speed is equivalent to Rock Lee's but it is definently fast.