2012-02-22, 22:28 | Link #4881 | ||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2012-02-23, 01:25 | Link #4882 | ||||
Philosophos Basileus
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Nevertheless, I think the personal consequences would be even worse. I have to disagree with you there - I feel personally that having your dream destroyed in such a horrific way like that and being, seemingly, responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of the people you so desperately wanted to save would be extremely hard to live with. I'm not so sure that I myself wouldn't pick death in that situation. But, more importantly, my personal reading of Lelouch's character is that he's the sort to think along similar lines to those that I just detailed. Hence I believe that even if he could have freed Euphemia from the Geass (and known it), he would have decided to kill her, as a mercy kill. Although, if that doesn't convince you, there's a rather bleaker way of looking at it: it Euphie survives the Euphinator incident somehow, then his Geass might be discovered by the Britannian authorities, the very people he's trying to fight. Or indeed, perhaps even worse, his identity might surface. Quite apart from the issue of leaving her alive or killing her, I think it fairly hard to dispute that Lelouch reasoned that the best thing he could do for Euphemia at that point was bringing some good, in however twisted a manner, out of the tragedy that had occurred. The only way for him to do that was to use it for Zero's objectives - and if Zero gets sabotaged, bang go his objectives. Euphemia's life, at that point, might well have been a necessary sacrifice even if there were another way of stopping her participation in the slaughter. Quote:
As for C.C.'s feelings for Lelouch, I would say that that moment in episode 7 would be the start of a sort of admiration, certainly, but I would say that it was at Narita that they first started showing true affection, however indirect and couched in snark, for one another. I would say that these feelings had blossomed fully, probably on both sides but definitely on C.C.'s, by the time of the Black Rebellion. |
||||
2012-02-23, 13:18 | Link #4883 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-02-24, 15:49 | Link #4884 | ||
Philosophos Basileus
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-02-24, 15:55 | Link #4885 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
As for the C.C. geass canceller thing, I think my conclusion for now is that it's definitely a possibility, but it's not a certainty. |
|
2012-02-24, 15:58 | Link #4886 | |
Philosophos Basileus
|
Quote:
Oh, it's definitely not a certainty. I've never tried to argue that it is. It's just a possibility that I happen to favour myself. |
|
2012-04-26, 02:47 | Link #4887 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
True. Kallen did love him. Too bad that Lelouch decided that he was DEAD since the day he was born. After all, Emperor Charles did say that to him, which destroyed his entire childhood. Thus, he dedicated himself into doing what was right: To give his sister a better world, and to make the world hate him because Lelouch hated himself. One can't have a normal relationship with such thoughts in his mind. Can he? Thus, Lelouch felt the best path to take was DEATH!
Good for him because upon his death, Lelouch's wish was granted: 1. A Better World 2. Nunnally is safe 3. Suzaku is her knight 4. His friends are ok 5. C.C. got her wish Thus, C.C. wanted Lelouch to make her happy instead of granting her the gift of Death. If we wish to believe that Lelouch is alive, he is the cart driver whose face was hidden at the end of Turn 25. So for all you C.C. x Lelouch fans out there, you have won both the battle and the war. In the last picture drama, C.C.'s name was never mentioned by Kallen or anyone else. |
2012-04-26, 10:23 | Link #4888 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
|
Quote:
If Lelouch died and was thus gone there is no way he could have fulfilled CC's wish to be "truly loved." We know that was her wish because her wish was based on her Geass. Her Geass was for everyone around her to love her and she came to hate that. She didn't want false love created by her Geass, she wanted someone to love her sincerely. Lelouch tells her "I understand what your Geass was now...and I will give you the smile you never had." The only way that makes sense is if Lelouch means he actually is in love with her. Otherwise, it is horrible writing akin to a Roger Corman's grade of movie. Here's the scene I'm speaking of: He also clearly states that eternal life is hell. Therefore, by the end of the series we are either left with gawd-awful contradictions in the story (due to bad writing) or we must assume that Lelouch is alive, but is dead to the world. Either way, I think the ending (especially CC's part) could have been written better. Gundam 00, Code Geass was not.
__________________
|
|
2012-04-26, 11:19 | Link #4889 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Nevertheless...I do want to make a couple of comments. Quote:
To make a long story short, I don't think fulfilling the wish of giving C.C. "true love" requires both parties to be alive forever and ever. Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Xander; 2012-04-26 at 11:30. |
||||
2012-04-26, 19:49 | Link #4890 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
|
Quote:
It is true that both Taniguichi and the Producer (I believe it was Kawaguchi) have made statements that seem to contradict (and/or clarify) what Okouchi was saying. And in essence stated that the ending was "open." Quote:
That's the real tragedy of R2, the ending is TOO vague and ambiguous. Quote:
It reads like "Hey everybody, I made the world hate me (and logically by extension Britannia, but that's an argument for another thread), started an energy crisis, cursed my best friend to a life of solitude/misery, and broke a promise to a girl who not only loved me but also helped me acheive all my goals(CC), now I'm leaving all of you to pick up the pieces of my mess. So long suckers! I'm off to C's world permanently via death. Hope you all don't mind." That doesn't match the character who made a contract with C.C. so that he could change the world for the better in S1, and the start of R2. It cheapens both Lelouch and C.C. in that she put everything she had into helping him (even betraying Charles and Marianne), because she loved Lelouch. It makes it look like Lelouch just used her, and then offed himself to escape. Quote:
As far as Science-Fiction stories go, Code Geass pales in comparison to Gundam 00, and is a B-flick when compared to the giants of anime such as Mobile Suit Gundam, Space Battleship Yamato, and Macross. I don't hate CG, I just think that R2 was a Missed Moment of Awesome with an ending that ruined what could have been an amazing new series.
__________________
|
||||
2012-04-27, 03:44 | Link #4891 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
In my opinion, Code Geass R2 was essentially a repackaged version of the First Season that's done on a global scale. Aside from Zero Requiem, everything throughout the second season was almost identical to the first season. With the timeslot change nonsense, I felt that the producers should have kept their original plans for Code Geass R2 intact and simply produced an inexpensive 2-part recap episode that would cover the important moments of Season One. The last two episodes leading up to Zero Requiem could have been made into an OVA set. There was no need to rewrite the entire story to accommodate the new audience. We can only guess what the original version of Code Geass R2 might have been.
|
2012-04-27, 05:09 | Link #4892 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
|
|
2012-04-27, 10:03 | Link #4893 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
|
|
2012-04-27, 10:16 | Link #4894 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-04-27, 12:53 | Link #4895 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
I'm afraid that darthfury78 is using a little too much hyperbole for my taste, in both personal and intellectual terms, but let's see...I've always been of the opinion that Zero Requiem would have worked better as a movie or as a separate work, and R2 was the result of a series of bad production decisions, so I can agree with that part.
Quote:
What you may see as Lelouch running away can also be seen as his finally deciding to give up something in exchange for all his various sins and immoral activities, instead of being allowed to simply apologize and escape punishment. Of course, whether or not the idea of suicide qualifies as "running away" rather than being an "honorable way out" is also not an objective matter (although I, quite naturally, don't hold any favorable views towards that subject in real life, at least as a general concept). You could easily turn any of the above statements around to view the resulting situation from a different lens. For instance, Suzaku was not a blameless party in all this and his own desire for self-punishment predated his last alliance with Lelouch. In any event, he was not a victim who ended up being uniterally abused by his best friend. I do think he's less criminally responsible than Lelouch, comparatively speaking, even with respect to FLEIJA...but that's not exactly saying much. Quote:
Quote:
If the viewer were to be cynical enough, for the sake of argument, then even C.C. herself could be judged a lot more harshly than that because she spent nearly the entire series using Lelouch just as much as he used her. In that sense, she cannot be considered as much of a victim either. C.C.'s behavior had its own particularly selfish streak. Her betrayal of Charles and Marianne was mostly passive and entirely depended on Lelouch's final rejection of their plan. Even her eventual hesitation when Charles tried to take away her Code was based on the fact that Lelouch realized her true wish wasn't death, but what did C.C. do afterwards? Run away into the World of C and let Lelouch suffer from her absence (interacting with her original personality in the meanwhile wasn't the worst possible fate, but for all practical purposes that wasn't really C.C. as Lelouch knew her either). Prior to that moment, the most she had done was to run away after Marianne's physical death, but still kept in contact with her and was simply looking for another contractor rather than trying to prevent the Ragnarok Connection. In short, C.C. was not actively working against them and kept far too many secrets from Lelouch that could have aided him in his struggle. In all honesty, I would also argue that the above description is incomplete and, naturally enough, a bit too cynical for my liking...but then we come back to the original point of this entire discussion: what would be necessary in order to fulfill C.C.'s wish and make her smile? To put it simply, the most important requirement would be for Lelouch to understand and actually love her. Which, quite frankly, it appears he already did by the time Zero Requiem came around. The most evident sign of this is Lelouch's final on-screen conversation with C.C., where he revealed that he didn't hate her for giving him Geass. From a cynical perspective, he would have been more than justified for hating her, after everything that had happened as a result of this, but that wasn't Lelouch's reaction. In fact, they almost hugged/kissed before their unfortunate interruption. If that's not implying Lelouch already understands and loves her, then I don't know what it is. However, then comes what has been interpreted as a problematic point: C.C. stops Kallen and reminds him to come back to "make her smile"...but, considering both her and his respective teasing-oriented personalities and past interactions along equivalent lines, should we really take that bit of wordplay too literally? I think not. If anything, it can be interpreted as an indirect way for C.C. to tell Lelouch that she also cares about him and clearly doesn't want him to fall in the ongoing battle, as presented through a rather typical expression: "you still have to do this and that, so you better not die out there." Or, if you want to put it another way, C.C. already knows he will soon die during Zero Requiem but still wants Lelouch to come back and spend more time with her. And, you know what? He did return. If that is the case, regardless of the specific interpretation involved, it cannot be denied that Lelouch still had the opportunity to "make her smile" during the post-Damocles time skip, even if you believe he wasn't doing that already. I'm not a fan of using too many time skips, but then again...did we really need to see another scene between C.C. and Lelouch in order to confirm this? I'm split on the issue. My personal opinion is that I'd wish we had, in order to provide full emotional closure and simplify these debates, but I don't think it's a strict requirement. Which brings us to this: Quote:
Quote:
But then again...while I would never think of directly comparing Code Geass to Mobile Suit Gundam, Space Battleship Yamato or Macross in terms of lasting impact and influence, all of those important works had moments of sloppy or cheesy writing that wouldn't be out of place in a proper B-flick, now that you bring up the term, though this doesn't detract too much from their historical value (at least in my opinion). Even so, for better or for worse, I see nothing wrong with enjoying works that are more flawed yet still more interesting than the average. Like, say, Code Geass. Quote:
Last edited by Xander; 2012-04-27 at 13:16. |
||||||
2012-04-28, 00:30 | Link #4896 | |||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
|
Just got back from a party, so if this post seems like a Rum-drinking tipsy person (who has had quite a few shooters tonight) wrote it, you know now why.
Quote:
However, we have discussed this subject at length on this forum, so as you said, there is no need to beat this horse to death. I try to view Code Geass from a writer/author's viewpoint and attempt to not make the mistakes I see in R2 in my own writing. Especially with the handling of main character types such as Lelouch and CC. Quote:
If a character changes abruptly and without any real explanation, then I see this as a serious flaw in the writing of the story. Perhaps Okouchi and Taniguichi meant for Lelouch to act the way he did in the Zero Requiem from the begining of the whole series, but the fact is there was not the character or plot development needed written into R2 to justify the abrupt change in Lelouch's mindset. Thus his actions in episodes 23-25 seemed forced, and quite frankly wooden/contrived. We as viewers should have expected Lelouch to conduct Zero Requiem, the finale should have been the logical choice, and it was not under the circumstances. Lelouch had won all that he needed to, there was no requirement for him to die in the manner he did and thus the story's conclusion becomes unbelievable and vapid. It's denuoement totally deflated of any redeeming quality. Quote:
Quote:
If anything, we see him develop numerous other reasons for choosing a different path than what he started from, especially with regard to C.C.. His promise to her alone should have been enough for him to choose a different path considering how he let both Shirley and Rolo down during R2. Quote:
In fact, the story puts forward the idea that Lelouch is in fact redeeming her through his commitment to succeed and his caring for the world and the people in it. If anything, Lelouch made C.C. care again which is why in ep. 25 she is surprised at herself for even caring whether she wins or looses against Kallen in KMF combat. Quote:
It was clearly meant as a plot device to bring Marianne (via Anya) into the picture and give a reason for her introduction (to revive C.C.'s memory). It was B-flick grade bad and they really should have thought of anohter way to do this. The situation was a Deus et Machina of the worst sort. Quote:
We get a hint at this in her conversations with Marianne when she reassures Marianne she "doesn't feel that way about him [Lelouch]." When clearly C.C. is simply lying to herself about the blossoming love she has for Lelouch. Quote:
I don't think Okouchi and Taniguichi laid enough foundation for that in R2. Perhaps they were unable to, but I just do not see the foundation for Lelouch's death as say in Cowboy Bebop, Death Note, or even a literary work such as Le Morte D'Arthur. The idea of Lelouch choosing to kill all kinds of people to erase Euphie's SAZ massacre doesn't ring true, so the whole Zero Requiem falls flat. Clovis and Cornelia had killed more people in both Saitima and Shinjiku ghettos. Charles killed far more...period. Suzaku and Schneizel killed more via FLEIJA, and Nina was responsible for the creation of the weapon that did both. In comparison, Lelouch really wasn't that bad. Maybe the writer and director should have thought about this before they had the other characters commit attrocities that made Lelouch's actions look petty in comparison? Quote:
A real kiss for C.C., with Lelouch would have been nice of Okouchi and Taniguichi. Or even a kiss goodbye between them. Quote:
However, the quality of the writing is what I question. If this was the intention, then it should have been made clear. Quote:
The time-skips were very badly done, and it begs the question as to what actually happened during them. We probably will never know, but without the information, we as viewers are left "holding the bag" as it were. Quote:
Speaking from experience I will tell you that many people despise it for some reason. It's the major complaint I get about how vague the info on my alien races are in my own fiction. I agree with my fans/critics on this point. Unless the writer/author is intending on continuing the story and thus filling in the blanks later, the level of ambiguity must be kept to a minimum least you risk confusing/boring your intended audience. Code Geass being an anime, it would have been best if they had explained more, and not tried to be so David Lynchian with many aspects of the story. Quote:
Perhaps this was more a deficiency on the part of Newtype magazine then on Sunrise. Gundam 00 was one hell of a story. I have disdain for SF that is burdened with too much drama/romance. It should be kept to a minimum, while technical details and/or background data on races, tech, and powers should be fleshed out as much as possible. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||||||||||||||
2012-04-28, 01:11 | Link #4897 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-04-28, 04:04 | Link #4898 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
We've all gone through that same old routine more than a few times, so the only thing I'd add is that I still share some of the same concerns you and azul120 have pointed out, but my opinion remains: there are a few alternative explanations and possible interpretations for many of them. They don't turn R2 into a masterpiece, by any means, but they do elevate it a few meters above failure from both a personal and critical perspective. Which is, of course, only my opinion. Quote:
I can already tell that, as seen through your continued analysis, the skills necessary for good orthodox storytelling should remain within your grasp. Spoiler:
Quote:
But that's little compared to his post-Euphemia suffering (which he only superficially recovered from, IMHO) and the various types of traumatic events during R2. Quote:
Quote:
Spoiler:
Quote:
Curiously enough, that's more or less what they eventually did...not in the show, but in the Special Edition compilations (Black Rebellion and Zero Requiem). Speaking of which, it's interesting that they ended the second of those with a new monologue/narration from C.C. and with no epilogue sequence. Last edited by Xander; 2012-04-28 at 04:14. |
||||||
2012-04-28, 16:57 | Link #4899 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
At this time, I will only respond that Lelouch wasn't calm so much as he was blase and withdrawn while he waited for his chance to strike back at Britannia. Remember, also, his Ten Minute Retirement in Turn 7 when Rolo momentarily convinced him to abandon his quest.
|
2012-04-30, 20:30 | Link #4900 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
|
Quote:
Spoiler:
Quote:
I firmly enjoy films that are far from conventional. Eraser Head, Equilibrium, The 5th Element, The 9th Gate, Old Boy, etc. are among the many films I find amazing. All of them break the rules of traditional storytelling. However, it is not so much a matter of following conventional story telling "rules" it is, as I said prior, the breaking of the rules the writer sets in the begining of his/her own story at the end of the story that ruins it. That is what happened to Code Geass in my opinion. Quote:
Nunnally was another element, but the loss of his mother and the seeming indifference by Charles was portrayed as the major force in his rebellion. Quote:
However, if we are to believe that Lelouch was the genius that Okouchi attempts to portray him as, then Lelouch should have known that C.C. was the only person that would be safe from the curse of Geass/Code. Lelouch also says quite clearly in episode 15 of R2 that he views a code as a "hell" and/or "curse." For him to kill himself off and leave C.C. behind to live in what he considered to be a "hell" alone is not being unconventional or edgy/original, it is being irresponsible as a writer. You don't fuck over the main characters of your story if you want to keep people reading/watching it. Therefore, in my opinion, since Lelouch died, he basically backstabbed C.C. by not taking her with him and/or by him leaving her behind to live alone all by herself again for eternity. Spoiler:
As always Xander, it is a pleasure to have these conversations with you.
__________________
|
||||
|
|