Another - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by molitar

It's totally dumb.. Either purify make the class holy so the dead can't go to Class 3. Or better yet you do not rename it or anything else you close it off! You do not pretend it does not exist you just stop using class 3 so class 3 is still class 3 but nobody is in the class so nobody dies!

1. Mei already explain renaming the class not working.
2. Again Mei told exorcism not working.
2. the bold part, that just gonna make the ghost angry, n who knows what will happened after that. Pretty sure Dean and Sam Winchester will tell you that. And IIRC one of the arc in Ghost Hunt have something like that, they just abandon the haunted place n the ghost/evil goes batshit.

[Stiletto]

They covered half of what you said Molitar. this especially includes changing the name of the class and altering the documents. Also, western horror is culturally different from Eastern horror stories. It's like comparing an orange and a lemon. They might be the same genre, but don't expect them to 'taste' the same.

Might I also solidify the point that Another is supernatural? Of course there is going to be forced movement and rather unbelievable deaths. It's like how in The Grudge, you should be wondering how the ghost of a little girl got enough strength to tear someone's jaw clean off.

I'm not defending it, there will be plot holes, but you're making the entire anime sound horrible. It isn't.

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by molitar

It's totally dumb.. Either purify make the class holy so the dead can't go to Class 3. Or better yet you do not rename it or anything else you close it off! You do not pretend it does not exist you just stop using class 3 so class 3 is still class 3 but nobody is in the class so nobody dies!

New principal = nope.

Principal: What's this? A Class 3 with no students? Only staff?
Staff: B-But sir! The curse!
Principal: No buts! Put people there...!

Originally Posted by molitar

But the animators need to go watch the movie about death and escaping death because their is no semblance of reality to the deaths at all.. ridiculous fall where she does not try to fend for herself with her hands but falls like a limp doll, a very heavy glass pane that was tilted quite a bit not balanced precariously tipping over from a sudden gust of wind that was not even enough to knock them off their feet, and the elevator scene totally awful all elevators have emergency braking system for that reason.. now a realistic horror story would of had the emergency brakes go off than snap.. but the realism would of been there that they were there and did go off. When it comes to physics and common sense this is worse than a B Rated movie.

In the defence of the Elevator, it was built decades ago... They could have completely renovated it (you know... build a new one)... or even the building but nooooooo....

Besides, a strong wind can even destroy a bridge without knocking people off their feet. (see Tacoma Bridge Collapse) even if the wind is weaker than it is, if it would resonate either the truck (shake it just a bit) or the glass (this is more likely)... then apply gravity and angular momentum....

Originally Posted by molitar

Now if the dead are all connected to the class in the past that raise the status quo than go look in the year books and find who matches in name and face. He only attempted that once and was interrupted by head of the anti commitee.. Why not go back and go through them.. why not find out who is dead than force that dead person to realize he/she is dead maybe it will break the damn chain.. .

These dead people could have only have to alter memories to let them forget that someone had died... it is possible yes, but it could be hard...if not impossible. Plus we don't know the scope of the memory altering.

Originally Posted by molitar

but again no common sense at all it's like them horrible Hollywood Horror movie where the killer is walking slowly with a limp and the victim is running but the killer always catches up.. I can't stand any horror movie but Nightmare on Elm Street it was the only one where they acted usually on common sense but being in a nightmare it did not help.. it was explained properly but this is like the stupid Hollywood Movies that explain nothing and have no semblance of realty in it.

I had to vote this painful because it could of been so much more than another poorly designed horror story like Friday 13th

I wouldn't say it like that. At least not yet.

[FateAnomaly]

Finally some explanations. There are probably more secrets though. The MC's aunt also reminded him to follow the class rules but when he say it, we don't get to hear the whole thing. So there are probably more to it.

How does the false identity thing work anyway? Does he/she comes complete with parents and relatives and housing included?

Another thing i don't quite understand. Mei says someone will die every month, either a student in the class or their relatives. So a student can only die once a month but a bonus relative may or may not die?

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by FateAnomaly

Another thing i don't quite understand. Mei says someone will die every month, either a student in the class or their relatives. So a student can only die once a month but a bonus relative may or may not die?

Someone in Class 3 either dies or their relative dies. It doesn't have to be the student like with Nurse's brother.

Anyone keeping track of the dates people are dying? Seems like May had two (Nurse and Yukari + Mom) and June had Heart Boy.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

Anyone keeping track of the dates people are dying? Seems like May had two (Nurse and Yukari + Mom) and June had Heart Boy.

Nurse + Yukari + Mom = 3, not 2.
But actually, you're wrong. Nurse died in June. So June had Nurse + Heart Boy.

The Fatality scoreboard has the death dates on it.

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by LKK

Nurse + Yukari + Mom = 3, not 2.

Math was never a strong point for me

But actually, you're wrong. Nurse died in June. So June had Nurse + Heart Boy.

The Fatality scoreboard has the death dates on it.

Ok good. So each month has had two deaths so far.

[Diveman]

Ok so I decided to watch this anime, its IS pretty good, but as from now on, I dont think we'll be seeing much plot twists, because we already know whats going on, we know that Mei is alive, so basically what's left is "discover who the dead student is" and somehow end the curse (if they can stay alive, even better).

For me the scary parts were gone after they revealed Mei is not dead

[Dengar]

Actually we don't know what's going on. The only pieces of information we have is:

1) Somewhere around may, suddenly the amount of seats in the classroom stops adding up with the amount of students in the class.
2) People connected to the class start dying at least once a month.
3) Denying a single student's existence seems to act as a sort of safeguard.
4) On the flipside, acknowledging said student's existence seems like a surefire way to die now.

Everything else, like how there is a ghost (actually not a ghost, but somebody who is supposed to be dead), is actually just speculation on the part of Mei and/or other people. There are many questions still unanswered. For example, lets assume for a second that one of the students isn't supposed to be alive. Is that student responsible for the deaths? Or is a different entity at work here? The so-called "dead" student might not even be aware of what's going on.

Not to mention, Sakakibara has been acknowledging Mei from day 1, however, he does not seem to be in any danger of dying at the moment. Is this random chance or is there a reason for this?


Finally, from a more meta, logistics perspective, we are at 1/3 of the story now. Which is indeed a good point to explain and resolve a few things. However, since the second 1/3 of the story is going to begin now, no doubt new mysteries and questions will appear.

[haguruma]

One little thing I'd like to remark though is that in the novel Takabayashi's death was handled slightly different though not so much that the anime changed anythingh:

Spoiler for alternate novel:

Here Kouichi goes home with Mochizuki who lives close to the former. While discussing the events Mochizuki, at another point where he is undecisive whether to tell Kouichi anything or not, gets a call from (I think) Akazawa about Takabayashi having succumbed to a heart attack at his own home.

I think it's no huge spoiler but it does make a difference and I don't really like the anime's take on it...still I put it in a spoiler-box just in case.

Another thing I thought about adding a time-chart for the events that happened so far so people can keep track of the events.

Spoiler for timetable based on info up to episode 5:

1972

• April - XX Ritsuko and XX Misaki/Misaki XX attend class 3-3
• ???? - Misaki dies a not further disclosed (and rumored to be unnatural) death
• ???? - The students of the 3-3 pretend that Misaki is still there
• March (1973) - Misaki appears in the graduation picture

1973

• ???? - Because the class welcomed a dead person it moved closer to death and therefore another dead came to class in that year taking up a spot (rumor)

1983

• April - XX Reiko attends class 3-3
• ???? - Sakakibara Ritsuko dies
• ???? - Sakakibara Kouichi is born

1996

• ???? - something happened that year which makes it special

1998

• April - 29 students start attending class 3-3
• April - Kubodera and Mikami become homeroom-teacher and assistant homeroom-teacher respectively
• April 2Xth - Sakakibara Kouichi is brought to a hospital in Yomiyama because of a pneumothorax and is visited by his grandmother Tamie and aunt Reiko
• April 2Xth - Kouichi is visited by a party of students from Yomiyama North Middle School (Kazami Tomihiko, Sakuragi Yukari, Akazawa Izumi) welcoming him in Yomiyama
• April 2Xth - Fujioka Misaki dies in the same hospital Kouichi is treated
• April 2Xth - Kouichi on his way outside meets Misaki Mei in an elevator headed down to B2
• May 6th - Kouichi starts attending class 3-3 after the Golden Week bringing the class up to 30 students
• May 7th - Kouichi finds Mei in the library in the old school building and meets the librarian
• May 8th - Kouichi follows Mei and finds the doll shop "Yomi at twilight and the hollow, green eye"
• May 26th - Sakuragi Yukari dies by falling down the stairs and impaling herself on an umbrella/ her mother Mieko dies in a car accident
• June 3rd - Mizuno Sanae dies in a freak accident when the cables in the old hospital elevator snap and the emergency breaks somehow seem to not work
• June 4th - Akazawa Izumi is elected as the new class representative in a meeting that Kouichi did not attend
• June 4th - Takabayashi Ikuo dies of a cardiac arrest
• June 5th - Kouichi is treated as being inexistent
• June 5th - Kouichi is given the class roster by Mochizuki and with it Misaki Meis address and phone number
• June 5th - Kouichi calls the number and Misaki Kirika, Mei's mother, answers the phone
• June 5th - At the doll-shop Kouichi is told by Mei of the rumored beginning of the curse on class 3-3 and about her own existence as well as the "inexistent" and the "dead one".

[djmaca]

Originally Posted by fertygo

1. Mei already explain renaming the class not working.
2. Again Mei told exorcism not working.
2. the bold part, that just gonna make the ghost angry, n who knows what will happened after that. Pretty sure Dean and Sam Winchester will tell you that. And IIRC one of the arc in Ghost Hunt have something like that, they just abandon the haunted place n the ghost/evil goes batshit.

They should have just 2 classes instead of 3. Curses works like programming. When one variable is missing it throws an exception, causing everything to bail out.

[molitar]

Yep don't pretend class 3 don't exist.. but seal it off.. make it unusable for any use at all. The other was to purify the room by filling it with holy objects so the dead can't visit the classroom anymore. You think dead could simply walk into a purified place? Every culture has their methods to purify a place. Either of these two should work to move the class away from death. Renaming of course that would never work it's still class 3.. the hauntings happen based on area not names.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by djmaca

They should have just 2 classes instead of 3. Curses works like programming. When one variable is missing it throws an exception, causing everything to bail out.

Impossible. There are not 3 classes at Yomiyama North, there are 5 classes. Compressing them into 2 would mean 75 students per class instead of 30...they have neither the rooms nor the staff to make this possible. They also can't cut down on students they accept because they're a public school not a private school. The staff are basically just state employees who have to follow orders as well. The head of school committee would tell them they're insane if they'd decide to cut down more than 50% of their classes.

Originally Posted by molitar

The other was to purify the room by filling it with holy objects so the dead can't visit the classroom anymore. You think dead could simply walk into a purified place? Every culture has their methods to purify a place. Either of these two should work to move the class away from death. Renaming of course that would never work it's still class 3.. the hauntings happen based on area not names.

So far nobody said anything about this not being tried before, this is only episode 5 so you'd better expect that there's more to it than just acceptance.
Also considering holy items, there are enough instances in modern supernatural lore which state that holy items are practically rendered useless if either people don't believe in their power or if their power has been rendered useless by the acceptance of the allmightiness of the supernatural (the famous cross scene in King's Salem's Lot comes to mind).

And about the curse being based on the area...I think we can rule this out as well. The building where they are taught doesn't exactly look like it was build during the early 70's or even earlier, so very likely the class has been relocated before.

[Triple_R]

I really like this show, but it has one critical flaw you have to ignore in order to really get into it...

And that flaw is basically the fact that, if this school existed in real world Japan (or in any real world first/second world nation), it would have been shut down ages ago.

As in the entire school would have been shut down. If not by the Japanese government actually forcing it to shut down, then by parents refusing to allow their kids to attend this school, hence causing the school to eventually fail to attract enough students to keep itself in operation.


After a few years of this curse, there's just no way the media would not have caught wind of this (heck, CNN would likely have caught wind of this, let alone the local Japanese media), and there's just no way that people would risk sending their kids to this well-known cursed school. "It's just a coincidence" is an argument that people will (and want to) accept in a lot of situations, but only up to a point, and this Class 3 is well beyond that point.

I can't even imagine the PTA-style outrage/controversy this school would have caused over decades of this curse being in effect.


Now, if you put that aside, it's a great anime. But admittedly, it might be hard for me to put this aside.


Still, 9/10 for Episode 5. Great dialogue, good mystery, excellent pacing and atmosphere.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

After a few years of this curse, there's just no way the media would not have caught wind of this

What you assume is that this happened every year for sixteen years,I don't see it that way.

Here's what Misaki said:

Originally Posted by Misaki Mei

And once it happens,once it begins.Somebody dies every month(...)It's when the number of students in the class increases by one.

That doesn't mean the number of students in the class increases by one every year.Just that if it does,you're screwed.
Maybe most years they show up and the number of desks is correct,but once in a while (say about every 5 years,though that's just a random number just to give an exemple) they're one desk short and will have to use countermesures,10 years ago,they found one that seems to work.

Maybe the "nothing happened last year" in episode 4 means that no counter mesures were needed.

With this in mind here's my theory:

When the school year started the number of desks was right and all students in class 3 thought they wouldn't have to deal with the curse this year.
However,in came transfer student Kouichi and so "the number of students in the class increased by one."
Now,they weren't really sure if a transfer student could activate the curse,but just in case they designated Mei as the student to be ignored.

This would explain one thing that has been bugging me:Why did the class only start to ignore Mei on May 1st and not before?Afterall the school roster is dated march 3rd,so the school year started somewhere in march.
Because at first they thought there'd be no need to ignore someone,there was no extra person....until Kouichi transfered,they then proceeded to ignore Mei as compensation when he transfered.

This would also eplain Mei saying in episode 4 "they may have only half believed it (had begun)" and "I don't think they fully believed it (had begun)" , they were wishfully thinking that a transfer student wouldn't be able to set off the curse.

A couple of sidenote:
-This would imply that Mei's cousin dying was just a coincidence and not part of he curse.
-This could mean that Kouichi is indeed dead,or (the option I preffer) that nobody is dead and looking for a dead person is a dead end.

[warita]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And that flaw is basically the fact that, if this school existed in real world Japan (or in any real world first/second world nation), it would have been shut down ages ago.

I have to agree with you 100% on this. I also have a hard time getting hooked on something, if it blatantly makes no sense whatsoever.... and unfortunately, this is not the only flaw in the whole anime.

Meis explanation how they reached the conclusion that there is a dead person among them makes no sense, because they are operating under a very simple logical fallacy.
The correct way to derive a theory is to look at the evidence and then come to the right conclusion. Not establish a conclusion and then look at the evidence to see, if it fits. But thats what they are doing.

The evidence is simple, one desk missing. This could mean just about anything, inluding the explanation Misaki has given.... but also 1000 other scenarios. I just dont see it probable to asume that one missing desk means there is a dead person in the classroom.


Also I think, that for them to figure out what is going on and come up with an effective countermeasure, this must be happening every year. They only have one chance per year to try something new and not having many clues, it takes a while to pinpoint the cause and come up with a solution.

[ninryu]

Next episode is romance drama. What.

[Proto]

(or in any real world first/second world nation)

In Soviet Russia....


...sorry couldn't resist.

Anyway, to Warita: Your problem is that you are considering this show to be just mistery or horror. That's the wrong approach. Just think of it as some Kafka like fantasy psychological horror book when things are not supposed to make sense whatsoever. And that in itself is part of the horror itself (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial)

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And that flaw is basically the fact that, if this school existed in real world Japan (or in any real world first/second world nation), it would have been shut down ages ago.

As in the entire school would have been shut down. If not by the Japanese government actually forcing it to shut down, then by parents refusing to allow their kids to attend this school, hence causing the school to eventually fail to attract enough students to keep itself in operation.

It's not really about attracting students. A public school isn't exactly chose in Japan, you are allocated to it based on your place of residence. That would mean that all those parents would have had to move to completely different parts of the country as it is very unlikely that South Yomiyama provides the space for all these families.
Also this is 1998, a time where money and job opportunities were still scarce due to the collapse of the economy bubble in 1991. For at least the last 7 years of that story people simply didn't have the opportunity to just stand up and leave because of some rumor.

After a few years of this curse, there's just no way the media would not have caught wind of this (heck, CNN would likely have caught wind of this, let alone the local Japanese media), and there's just no way that people would risk sending their kids to this well-known cursed school. "It's just a coincidence" is an argument that people will (and want to) accept in a lot of situations, but only up to a point, and this Class 3 is well beyond that point.

And from where do you know that this is a "well-known cursed school". Mizuno Sanae simply went to a different high school and has never heard about any of this. We also don't know whether any of the parents know about this so-called curse. How many of them visited Yomiyama North in the past? How many of them were in class 3-3?
It seems to be a quite popular rumor around students in the 1998 narrative we see in Another, but some urban legend is no reason to close down a school. If anything it might attract gossip media and occult magazines making the events even more obscure.

Originally Posted by warita

Also I think, that for them to figure out what is going on and come up with an effective countermeasure, this must be happening every year. They only have one chance per year to try something new and not having many clues, it takes a while to pinpoint the cause and come up with a solution.

Who says that this is an effective countermeasure? Mei said that this was supposed to work, but so far we have heard no evidence pointing in either direction so I would be careful when declaring something like this.
They clearly divide events in "years where sth. happens" (ある年) and "years where nothing happens" (ない年) ... and according to what they said they seemed to think that it would be the latter this year.

We also don't know if they actually only have one shot per year. Akazawa already said that maybe they need new countermeassures, so at least the idea of trying something else seems to be around.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by warita

Meis explanation how they reached the conclusion that there is a dead person among them makes no sense, because they are operating under a very simple logical fallacy.
The correct way to derive a theory is to look at the evidence and then come to the right conclusion. Not establish a conclusion and then look at the evidence to see, if it fits. But thats what they are doing.

You are correct,but never does Mei say that the students of class 3-3 reached that conclusion themselves,rather it's her own interpretation of events looking back on them.
There's a lot of "I think" as well as a "the way I see it" in her speech.

For all we know in 1988 there was really a student being bullied and ignored by the whole class and when nobody died the first month they started thinking maybe the were onto something.