[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Okay after thinking about the latest stuff I came up with another one of my crazy theories. this theory tries to unify several elements across the game and give a single explanation to both.
The interesting part is that it can match with shkanon theory, ghosterika theory and kanon-kinzo theory, all in a single package.

I'll call it the medium theory
*snip*

I like it for the fantasy aspect, but I can't accept it as a theory for solving Umineko. Sorta like how I like chrono's theory on Shkanon for the fucked up psychological aspects, but since I refuse Shkanon, I can't accept it.
I've just been focused so hard on finding a solution which doesn't involve fantasy elements and Shkanon, that it's become impossible for my mind to consider anything that involves them as vaild. Still, I can't find any evidence against it, so I can't deny it.
Unrelated, but I'm thinking about formulating what I think the rules of the gameboard are, in response to a post about five or six pages back (which considering how fast this thread is moving these days, is probably only yesterday). I'll post them when I get them finished.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Oliver

If you assume a rational explanation that Ange generally subscribes to, i.e. that virtual characters are internally maintained delusions, there should be no difference whatsoever in terms of effort between interacting with Maria and imagining the Stakes. Stakes should in fact be easier as they are inherently simpler characters. The only difference would be in terms of numbers.

So why?

If I remember correctly, it's because there's no vessel for the Stakes. Maria's diary acts as a vessel for her, and I actually think that Ange's not ressurecting Ange, but summoning her witch form MARIA as a familiar, like how she does with the Stakes. Of course, Ange's a little strange, and calls MARIA Maria, like how she calls Sakutaro Sakutarou. So the Stakes are harder to summon because she doesn't have anything to act as a vessel for them.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

If I remember correctly, it's because there's no vessel for the Stakes. Maria's diary acts as a vessel for her, and I actually think that Ange's not ressurecting Ange, but summoning her witch form MARIA as a familiar, like how she does with the Stakes. Of course, Ange's a little strange, and calls MARIA Maria, like how she calls Sakutaro Sakutarou. So the Stakes are harder to summon because she doesn't have anything to act as a vessel for them.

Here we come to the real puzzler. Notably, it's on one of those screens flashing when Battler has his epiphany in Ep5, and I am still wondering why.

• When Maria teaches Ange to summon the stakes, no vessel is mentioned, and apparently one is not available at all while Ange is in school.
• The stakes immediately proceed to tease Sakutaro. Ange is still feeling no strain.
• After admiring them for a while, Ange agrees to have control and maintenance of the Stakes transferred over to her. It takes her quite some time to do that, full of discussion and observing the Stakes nibbling on the lion.
• Then she immediately starts having a headache and suffering other effects.

Basically, if the scene follows materialistic rules, Ange is able to imagine all seven sisters simultaneously immediately, without any practice or training or even indepth study on what they should be. Then she starts training to do what she just had no problem with.

If the scene follows mystic rules, how is Ange able to talk to Maria in the first place is unclear and the witch form MARIA just muddles the issue - but it is solved best if Maria is literally truthful and a witch is somehow capable to transcend death by imagining herself...

If the mystic version is unacceptable and the materialistic version is silly, there has to be a third option somewhere.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Here we come to the real puzzler. Notably, it's on one of those screens flashing when Battler has his epiphany in Ep5, and I am still wondering why.

• When Maria teaches Ange to summon the stakes, no vessel is mentioned, and apparently one is not available at all while Ange is in school.
• The stakes immediately proceed to tease Sakutaro. Ange is still feeling no strain.
• After admiring them for a while, Ange agrees to have control and maintenance of the Stakes transferred over to her. It takes her quite some time to do that, full of discussion and observing the Stakes nibbling on the lion.
• Then she immediately starts having a headache and suffering other effects.

Basically, if the scene follows materialistic rules, Ange is able to imagine all seven sisters simultaneously immediately, without any practice or training or even indepth study on what they should be. Then she starts training to do what she just had no problem with.

If the scene follows mystic rules, how is Ange able to talk to Maria in the first place is unclear and the witch form MARIA just muddles the issue - but it is solved best if Maria is literally truthful and a witch is somehow capable to transcend death by imagining herself...

If the mystic version is unacceptable and the materialistic version is silly, there has to be a third option somewhere.

While I have no idea why this scene was part of Battler's epiphany in Episode 5 (Chrono seems pretty sure he has an idea though) I can sort of explain the scene from a fantasy point of view. Ange has practice summoning familiars; from her narration, it feels like she's subconciously been summoning Maria/MARIA for a while now. So the only difference between summoning her and the Stakes is the focus overload.
This is where it gets a little complicated to me. Maria originally summons the Stakes, like how she's been the one summoning Sakutaro all this time, and that's why Ange is able to percieve them without feeling the stress. Then, when Maria transfers the Stakes summoning over to Ange, it changes from hosting one familiar to eight, and Ange can't cope.
The thinnest part of this is this. Can a familiar/furniture summon it's own furniture?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

The thinnest part of this is this. Can a familiar/furniture summon it's own furniture?

I don't think it can possibly be allowed, it creates an infinite loop even a fantasy interpretation should dread.

The only other way out for the fantasy perspective is that someone acknowledged as a witch in life transcends death and can be seen even by untrained (but sensitive) people if a vessel is available. And in that case the vessel does not have to be animate. Which actually implies Maria can be resurrected by a ceremony like Beatrice.

While the portrait would be an obvious vessel for Beatrice-2, I suspect something more mobile that we have actually seen and treated as a normal object should be available.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I don't think it can possibly be allowed, it creates an infinite loop even a fantasy interpretation should dread.

The only other way out for the fantasy perspective is that someone acknowledged as a witch in life transcends death and can be seen even by untrained (but sensitive) people if a vessel is available. And in that case the vessel does not have to be animate. Which actually implies Maria can be resurrected by a ceremony like Beatrice.

While the portrait would be an obvious vessel for Beatrice-2, I suspect something more mobile that we have actually seen and treated as a normal object should be available.

The ring perhaps? Solving the Epitaph grants you the title of the head of the family, and with it the head's ring. Solving the Epitaph also revives Beatrice, even if it is just for a short while.

Back to the Ange debate, this is why I don't like discussing anything out of the meta-world as magic. If you simply assume that Ange created these hallucinations out of loneliness, then any amount of contradictions can be blamed on Ange's inexperience with magic.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

The ring perhaps? Solving the Epitaph grants you the title of the head of the family, and with it the head's ring. Solving the Epitaph also revives Beatrice, even if it is just for a short while.

Actually, gold itself would be a better vessel than either. It is the only object that is definitely intimately connected to Beatrice herself -- the ring was commissioned by Kinzo, and so was the portrait.

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Back to the Ange debate, this is why I don't like discussing anything out of the meta-world as magic. If you simply assume that Ange created these hallucinations out of loneliness, then any amount of contradictions can be blamed on Ange's inexperience with magic.

Blamed - yes. But I'm pretty sure reconstructing the 'magic school' of the story sufficiently completely is required to arrive at reasonable motivations for bizarre actions which we constantly come up with to fit the red.

In this particular case, though, the materialistic explanation is actually rather silly, while the magical one, which we aren't supposed to accept, makes sense. Which is why I'm thinking there might be a third option.

[Jan-Poo]

Hmmm at the time Ange was still in school, her magitoxin level was very low. Also I don't think Ange was able to summon the stakes right away back then, it probably took her some time (off screen).

Later in 1998 when Ange tries again her magitoxin level dramatically increased, also she isn't used to that anymore. I think Maria stressed out in a few instances that Ange couldn't summon too many of the stakes "in her current state". Which imho it means that Ange weakened a lot in the magical sense. Her headache is therefore caused by the strain of focusing her mind to keep at bay her magitoxin, something that she had no problem doing before.

as for the difference between resurrection, summoning and creation from what I can understand:

Summoning: the act to call forth a furniture, which basically means to be able to see and interact with an imaginary friend.
Resurrection: the act of bringing back to life people that are dead or things that are broken. It is similar to summoning, but you imagine people that really existed instead. It's supposedly a lot more difficult because the knowledge of their death might cause a block.
Creation: the act of creating a furniture which didn't previously exist. In the case of the seven sisters, for example, the "seven demons" already existed in mythology, Sakutaro however is a character that Maria made up.

If a witch is powerful enough she can make it so even third parties can "see" or believe in the furnitures and the resurrected people.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Hmmm at the time Ange was still in school, her magitoxin level was very low. Also I don't think Ange was able to summon the stakes right away back then, it probably took her some time (off screen).

Please study the scene where Ange gets the Stakes. First, Maria summons them. At that time, Ange sees them tease Sakutaro and interacts with them in detail.

Which means she imagines them already, doesn't she. There's nobody else to do this for her, Maria is dead, and nobody can do this in the mystery perspective. But a few minutes later she is 'handed over maintenance' so to speak, and is suddenly unable to imagine more than one stake, and every minor action by the Stakes psychosomatically hurts her until only Mammon remains.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

I found a problem. Erika was the detective in EP5. Knox's 2nd: supernatural agencies cannot be used as a detective technique.

In other words, you can't have a supernatural detective because of Knox's 2nd.

Incorrect. The detective is prohibited from using supernatural methods to uncover the details of the crime.

Nothing says other supernatural things cannot exist, or that the detective cannot him or herself be supernatural or supernaturally-inclined. I believe there have been mystery stories written from the POV of ghosts, the victim, a dog, etc.

Imagine, for instance, that Battler is actually the first person murdered, shortly into the first day. Battler's ghost then meanders about investigating the mysteries, though he isn't aware that he died and thus never does anything that would necessitate suspension of disbelief. His perspective remains objective, he's merely mistaken when he thinks people are paying attention to him (this doesn't work with Umineko's narrative, but just pretend for a second). He refuses to accept a supernatural means for the crime and proceeds to attempt to investigate using the clues he has available, ep1 style.

I see no Knox violation here. Yes, the detective himself is supernatural, but so what? So is the reader, in a sense, as the reader is a disembodied entity which no character within the story can recognize who is capable of attaining the thoughts - to whatever extent the author permits - of characters within the story, with the express purpose of solving the story. In other words, even if the storyline's detective obeys Knox, the reader never actually can with anything short of a strict first-person narrative. It shouldn't matter who the detective or narrator is, or even what they are, or that they exist at all. EDIT: Note that, by this theory, stories Knox would have viewed as "pure" are actually grossly in violation of his own rules. However, as Knox probably did not know anything about deconstructionism I am going to give him a pass here. Even if Dlanor didn't.

By the way, I consider this entire medium theory elegant nonsense. But it is elegant, so good show making everything fit. I just think it's far too absurd to be true. It's actually a perfect example of creating a theory which is technically sufficient but materially unbelievable. Then again, Hanyuu...

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually, gold itself would be a better vessel than either. It is the only object that is definitely intimately connected to Beatrice herself -- the ring was commissioned by Kinzo, and so was the portrait.

But the ring is shown in fantasy aspects to be very close to Beato; whoever she is on the island inherits the ring after Kinzo dies, if the fantasy scenes have any truth to them. And Kinzo did commission the ring, but I'd put my money on the chance he used gold from the Beatrice gold. Making it something connected to Beato, but also something that would bind her to the family.

Blamed - yes. But I'm pretty sure reconstructing the 'magic school' of the story sufficiently completely is required to arrive at reasonable motivations for bizarre actions which we constantly come up with to fit the red.

Ugh. Alright, my best attempt at logically explaining the scene using magic. Ange, while at this time is not acknowledged as the Ressurection Witch, still holds the potential for it. She specializes in the recovery of impossible summons, such as dead family members (Maria, and of course, her never attempted target, Battler), "dead" familiars (Sakutaro) and summons without vessels (Stakes). With her potential, she unknowingly revived Maria, but bound her to the diary. Like how Beatrice could survive on the island, but was bound to it. Therefore, MARIA existed as a witch, and could summon furniture on her own, which helped as she taught Ange magic.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Please study the scene where Ange gets the Stakes. First, Maria summons them. At that time, Ange sees them tease Sakutaro and interacts with them in detail.

Which means she imagines them already, doesn't she. There's nobody else to do this for her, Maria is dead, and nobody can do this in the mystery perspective. But a few minutes later she is 'handed over maintenance' so to speak, and is suddenly unable to imagine more than one stake, and every minor action by the Stakes psychosomatically hurts her until only Mammon remains.

What you said is somewhat invalid. By saying "Which mean she imagines them already," it means that it wasn't magic at all, but merely a lonely girl hallucinating. In order to explain magic, you have to avoid thinking "she imagined it." You can't explain magic with mystery. There's a reason the two are incompatible.

[Renall]

Wait, crap. I said Battler being dead already doesn't work with Umineko's narrative. Wouldn't I be a jerk if it turned out I was right? I mean he is in Purgatory. Maybe his sin was dying. Erika realized she was a ghost because the detective has to be one.

Okay, probably not, but it's a ghost-themed day.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Renall

Wait, crap. I said Battler being dead already doesn't work with Umineko's narrative. Wouldn't I be a jerk if it turned out I was right? I mean he is in Purgatory. Maybe his sin was dying. Erika realized she was a ghost because the detective has to be one.

Okay, probably not, but it's a ghost-themed day.

I don't think it would be, but knowing Ryuukishi, I wouldn't put it past him. It would require quite the skill to explain. Basically, it means Ange's narration was completely wrong, as she believe Battler died on that day. Or, we'd have to pull another Shkanon, and say Rudolf or Kyrie were pretending to be Battler for her.
Still, if this came true, I would laugh. A lot.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

What you said is somewhat invalid. By saying "Which mean she imagines them already," it means that it wasn't magic at all, but merely a lonely girl hallucinating. In order to explain magic, you have to avoid thinking "she imagined it." You can't explain magic with mystery. There's a reason the two are incompatible.

Sorry, I should mark the perspectives more clearly and I probably shouldn't have reiterated it yet again. I just meant to say that from a materialistic perspective using the already accepted for all other cases "purely subjective self-delusion through training in vivid daydreaming" explanation that scene does not make much sense as vivid daydreaming occurs before training required to achieve it.

From the mystic perspective, it only works if Maria is present in rather unusual ways, three of which we have proposed here. And all are rather complicated. But at least no contradictions occur.

So what if there actually is an objective phenomenon of some kind - non-supernatural, but somehow ensuring synchronicity of subjective processes without clearly visible cause?

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

But the ring is shown in fantasy aspects to be very close to Beato; whoever she is on the island inherits the ring after Kinzo dies, if the fantasy scenes have any truth to them. And Kinzo did commission the ring, but I'd put my money on the chance he used gold from the Beatrice gold. Making it something connected to Beato, but also something that would bind her to the family.

Yes, I guess the ring has to be it then.

[Jan-Poo]

You know just to clarify I didn't mean to say the medium is actually a medium and the ghosts are actually ghosts, but just that this is what people believe. Although I must say that without Person X being actually a medium it is very difficult to explain how he managed to convince everyone.

Apart from that clarification I'm not going to defend this theory (nor deny it) because I'm aware of its limits and I doubt I can defend it from attacks. And I agree with Renall that the simple fact that a theory explains everything (or a very big deal of things) doesn't mean that the theory is true. I think that for any given set of problems with enough imagination and skill it is possible to create an unification theory that explains them all perfectly even if it's completely wrong in practice. That's why the superstring theory doesn't impress me.

Anyway it's not like the other theories we have are so solid in comparison.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You know just to clarify I didn't mean to say the medium is actually a medium and the ghosts are actually ghosts, but just that this is what people believe. Although I must say that without Person X being actually a medium it is very difficult to explain how he managed to convince everyone.

Well, yes, I accept the possibility that the theory could be interpreted with no supernatural elements, but in that instance I'm not sure I really believe there are enough clues presented to support not merely the notion of a spiritual medium, but also a fake spiritual medium.

The "medium" would also need extensive experience in the mannerisms and natures of every single person likely to be present on the island (except, perhaps, Battler, which might explain his exclusion from supernatural events since the "medium" would not be able to fool him since he/she has a six-year gap in their "read"). They would need to be a good enough liar to convince sixteen people that it's true. That takes enormous suspension of disbelief, to say the least.

EDIT: Though it does support and explain some things, like the beach scene and Shannon and Jessica trying to prompt Battler to recall things. They would by this theory be attempting to "read" him psychologically so that they can tune their behavior accordingly. This is a very common trick in a magic (as in rabbits and card tricks magic) show. Also used by phony psychics. Misdirection through props and theatrics is also pretty common. I would even go so far as to say someone is strongly versed in stage magic, the problem is I have seen no evidence of this anywhere in any episode. I don't think ryukishi has extensive experience with stage magic, though he clearly understands similar concepts.

EDIT EDIT: Okay, the card trick in ep5 is actually the one example I can think of. You could argue closed rooms are also a magic trick, at least inasmuch as escaping them is. And like stage magic, the best tricks are the ones that operate on assumptions rather than cheap things like trapdoors.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Sorry, I should mark the perspectives more clearly and I probably shouldn't have reiterated it yet again. I just meant to say that from a materialistic perspective using the already accepted for all other cases "purely subjective self-delusion through training in vivid daydreaming" explanation that scene does not make much sense as vivid daydreaming occurs before training required to achieve it.

From the mystic perspective, it only works if Maria is present in rather unusual ways, three of which we have proposed here. And all are rather complicated. But at least no contradictions occur.

So what if there actually is an objective phenomenon of some kind - non-supernatural, but somehow ensuring synchronicity of subjective processes without clearly visible cause?

The "purely subjective self-delusion through training in vivd daydream" (sorry, I just love that title) train of thought still works. If you replace Maria as her familiar with Maria as an equal witch (I am the one who called Maria her familiar, I need to take that back), then the training happens with Maria summoning the Stakes, then giving the load to Ange, like how you'd give the load of a heavy object off to another person. Ange is not on summoning yet. She just (non-fanstasy here) imagines Maria summoning the Stakes, so logically, since Maria is not attached to Ange, there is no strain on her. Or, fantasy instead, she believes that Maria summons the Stakes, so she can see them.
Working out an extensive theory of how each individual type of magic sounds fun now.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

The "purely subjective self-delusion through training in vivd daydream" (sorry, I just love that title) train of thought still works. If you replace Maria as her familiar with Maria as an equal witch (I am the one who called Maria her familiar, I need to take that back), then the training happens with Maria summoning the Stakes, then giving the load to Ange, like how you'd give the load of a heavy object off to another person. Ange is not on summoning yet. She just (non-fanstasy here) imagines Maria summoning the Stakes, so logically, since Maria is not attached to Ange, there is no strain on her.

Yes, that works in the non-fantasy perspective if Ange only starts feeling the strain when she believes she should. Which is still within bounds.

But actually seeing them before that moment requires her to believe she actually needs training when she in fact does not, which is the really interesting part.

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Working out an extensive theory of how each individual type of magic sounds fun now.

So far, at a glance across the entire text, it's a rather eclectic mess. Very childlike things by Maria ('U-uu!') with little to no system but pure imagination to them coexist with hermetic tradition which is mostly seen as goetia/theurgy (that is, summoning of spirits) and mentions alchemy but astrology is completely forgotten. Much of the underlying philosophy is completely missing and instead replaced by something very different. The concepts Kinzo is described using are suspiciously modern and smell of chaos theory magic... In the middle of all that, number theory pops up out of nowhere and flashes you.

[Renall]

Progressing with a random thought: What if everyone is getting entirely the wrong idea about Kinzo's "black magic?" Maybe he's not interested in real magic at all, but stage magic. Of course, any good magician uses a gimmick, so pretending to be a real Crowley-style sorcerer is an entirely valid way to present your act. Less scrupulous magicians even claim actual powers, though merely pretending to have real magic powers is acceptable as long as you assert it's all part of your act. Some magicians would find this a bit irksome, like James Randi, but as long as the audience is not intentionally misled except during the show, it's acceptable.

So maybe Kinzo's not teaching people magic, but "magic." Let's look at the difference between Ronove and Genji. If we assume the two are similar and that aspects of the personality transfer over, perhaps we're led to believe that Genji and Kumasawa are capable, in the context of a "show," of performing certain feats. Ronove's butler outfit looks a bit like a stage magician's outfit anyway, and Virgilia's got lots of room up her sleeve. In other words, they share a mutual interest in stage magic with Kinzo.

The notion of "furniture" also takes on a different perspective here. Furniture help the magician perform his tricks. This includes props (the Stakes), but it could also include assistants. After all, when sawing a woman in half or levitating a person, it helps to have somebody who is in on the trick and actively participating, but they aren't really the magicians themselves. They're, to use a rough term, human props. But of course, nothing stops them from stepping forward and becoming a larger part of the act, or even taking over the starring role. Perhaps Gohda isn't allowed to wear the one-winged eagle because he just isn't good enough at putting on a show. He is a bit of a stammering sycophant, after all...

So what is Beatrice? She's the "witch." The new magician. Kinzo's taken his last bow, so now we have a new performer. Suit-Beatrice's outfit and her trick with Maria's candy is stage magic 101. Furniture that became a witch; an assistant who became a performer herself. She demonstrates her mastery with an impressive display that is twisted into tragedy. Battler does exactly the same thing in ep6; to demonstrate his mastery of the game, he constructs an elaborate magic trick. Then someone wrecks it.

Looked at this way, a lot of elements that appear sinister (minus the murders anyway) are actually quite a bit more clear. The fake plots are an act. The faked deaths are stage makeup. The closed rooms are fantastic tricks. Someone is using them to really hurt and kill people, but that wasn't the intent behind them. It's very possible that more than one person was instructed in the stage magic and misdirection, but that one has chosen to use it "properly" as entertainment and another is using it to lie to people and kill them.

Kinzo's epitaph appears a sinister ritualistic slaughter. It's actually a childlike word puzzle that ends in a reward of more money than anyone present would know what to do with. It's playful, even though it appears dense and scary. This also somewhat matches Kinzo's personality, if we believe some of the things Kanon said about him.

Inconsistent elements are explicable as different people's acts. Not everyone uses the same tricks the same way. To one person a given prop is an important thing to emphasize, but to another it's just something to jam into the box where the assistant appears to be.

Battler (and later Erika), of course, thinks all of these things are human tricks. They are human tricks, but that's the point; everyone agrees to that and is suspending disbelief. Battler/Erika is the guy sitting in the front row heckling the magician at every turn, claiming everything is fake. Of course it's fake. This is the essence of the ep6 argument between Erika and Maria. Maria is - if not to the extent more mature people are - aware of the trick, but she derives happiness from pretending. This is a perfectly understandable coping mechanism for a child with a rocky home situation, especially one who is intelligent like Maria. Maria can, of course, get the wrong idea, which is why she often absorbs herself in the misdirection of the act rather than the details. Since Battler is more mature, he looks to the tricks themselves (the disappearing object) and not the trappings (the magical cloak covered in runes). Both of them are wrong. The trick is only properly enjoyable when you synthesize the ideas; you know the magician is trying to trick you, but you let yourself get caught up in it. You want to lose. You want to be completely baffled. That's what makes it magical. "Surrendering to the witch" is the right thing to do.

Maria and Ange's distinctions between "white" and "black" magic fall into similar ideas. "Black" magic is the use of human trickery and deception, preying on psychology, to make people believe things that aren't true. It's the faith healer who is a sham, or the phony spoon-bender. People who are just trying to get ahead or hurt others. People who promise things and don't deliver, or deliver something that isn't really what they said it was. "White" magic is the same thing, but to entertain, uplift, engage, and delight. It's making the world fantastic even though everyone involved understands rationally that it's a trick. It's letting people be fooled, knowing they're being fooled, and consciously choosing to let that happen.